Revisiting the Bummer Trade

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is literally proving my point. And now if we are going to use the Burger/Eder trade standard of hindsight,  Shewmake was garbage and is a DFA candidate.  Schuster was awful.  Pretty much the only non-disappointment was the MiLB pitcher who isn't even a top 30 guy anyway.  We literally got nothing of value for Bummer.  We got more for Tanner Banks just by getting a single decent prospect. 

If we acquired all five of those Braves' guys just ASSUMING THEIR EXISTING CONTRACTS (or any combination)...it would have been TERRIBLE, just from a cost/fWAR perspective.

The only thing JR did was saved himself the money remaining on Bummer's contract.

Yay....winning.

 

Then we turned around and wasted all those savings on terrible FA's...other than Fedde.

Then we managed to screw up the positive asset we had in Fedde, even.

[WhiteSox2023]

38 minutes ago, almagest said:

Gowens is a starter. Also, I don’t think you knew who was a 40 man bubble candidate or not, because you thought they had a roster crunch like the Braves even though both those guys are gone.

No, my point was that you wouldn’t even want these guys if they were still under team control.   They suck.

Getz’s roster moves have been absolutely terrible on the whole.

Edited November 6 by WhiteSox2023

[almagest]

16 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

No, my point was that you wouldn’t even want these guys if they were still under team control.   They suck.

Getz’s roster moves have been absolutely terrible on the whole.

Then I have no idea why you said the Sox have the same problem the Braves did, because that team is good.

 

[caulfield12]

Braves=too good, roster and payroll crunches

White Sox=too bad, needed bad players who were excess baggage on Braves on Sox major league roster to cover for even worse in minors that clearly weren't ready (except Romy Gonzalez apparently)

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

It's easy to look using hindsight but the Bummer trade was absolutely the right decision. 

[A-Train to 35th]

19 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

He had a deal for 25 and an option for 26.  He would have been fine.  It was a gamble worth taking versus taking on players that would be long gone before the Sox sniff 60 wins again.

That makes no sense, you're proposing it's ok to give Bummer 25 million as a reliever for a team going nowhere?

How was AaronBummer going to be worth 25 mil on a team that set the MLB record for losing?

EDIT: Sorry,  I should have checked before responding.

Edited November 6 by A-Train to 35th
add

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

That makes no sense, you're proposing it's ok to give Bummer 25 million as a reliever for a team going nowhere?

How was AaronBummer going to be worth 25 mil on a team that set the MLB record for losing?

25 as in the year 2025, not $25. 

[A-Train to 35th]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

25 as in the year 2025, not $25. 

Thanks I just looked it up myself because after thinking about it, there's no way JR was paying 25 million.

I should have checked before responding.

[Chicago White Sox]

23 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

The Braves re-worked Bummer’s contract to retain him for two more years.

Meanwhile, other than Gowens, you wouldn’t want back one of the four other players that the Sox received for Bummer.

I would 100% bring back Soroka as a reliever if the price was right.

[BrittBurnsFan]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I would 100% bring back Soroka as a reliever if the price was right.

Would he come back to this organization as a reliever?  Only if he gets paid more than any other organization...as a reliever.  Unless he has zero offers...or the White Sox bid the most money...he is moving on...which is fine.  

[chitownsportsfan]

22 hours ago, Texsox said:

This would be a footnote in a successful franchise season. For us, it's meat and potatoes. 

Exactly. There's good points made on both sides in this thread, but your point stands alone as the most relevant. We're so far away from where we want to be. 

[almagest]

37 minutes ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

Would he come back to this organization as a reliever?  Only if he gets paid more than any other organization...as a reliever.  Unless he has zero offers...or the White Sox bid the most money...he is moving on...which is fine.  

I don't think he's going to have a choice. He was bad as a starter and good as a reliever.

[BrittBurnsFan]

15 minutes ago, almagest said:

I don't think he's going to have a choice. He was bad as a starter and good as a reliever.

That I agree with...I wasn't that clear...I guess I meant that if he is going to come back to the White Sox as a reliever I would guess it would only be due to getting paid more than he would anywhere else (which is really what most FAs do).  I just think that if he was going to settle for being a reliever, he might want to go somewhere that would allow him to pitch in more competitive situations.  Being a long reliever for the White Sox would not be ideal (although it is a MLB roster spot and accumulates service time)!  

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

On 11/5/2024 at 12:07 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Trading Bummer was never the problem.  It was the return targeting guys who were approaching free agency and DFA status instead of trying to refill the farm system.  The problem was Getz trying to get a few more wins in 2024 versus worrying about 2028 and beyond.

Yea but just 1 more win would have prevented them from breaking the loss record everyone was worried about

[almagest]

48 minutes ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

That I agree with...I wasn't that clear...I guess I meant that if he is going to come back to the White Sox as a reliever I would guess it would only be due to getting paid more than he would anywhere else (which is really what most FAs do).  I just think that if he was going to settle for being a reliever, he might want to go somewhere that would allow him to pitch in more competitive situations.  Being a long reliever for the White Sox would not be ideal (although it is a MLB roster spot and accumulates service time)!  

Yeah, he was good enough in relief last year that someone with playoff aspirations will likely pick him up. Would be fine having him back but he's probably gone.

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yea but just 1 more win would have prevented them from breaking the loss record everyone was worried about

This is an awful flex.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 11/5/2024 at 10:38 AM, almagest said:

Yes I'm sure so many teams were beating down the door to trade valuable prospects for one year of a guy with a 6.79 ERA in 2023 who walked 5.6 per 9, and seemed to fold under any pressure. Switching out guys on the 40 man bubble for prospects would've returned marginal ones at best, and people would've bitched about that, too. GMs aren't going to overpay for performance several years out of date, nor are they going to just buy the "his FIP was so much lower so give me good prospects!" argument either.

Soroka was a good flier to see if he could recapture some of his 2019 success. He ended up being a solid bullpen guy and I wouldn't mind seeing him back, though since he elected free agency that's probably not an option.

Schuster produced 1 WAR in 73 innings as a long man/spot starter and should be an ok arb eligible addition going forward for a bad team.

Lopez did what he was expected to - play good defense at a non-premium position and not hit at all. He was brought in to likely fill in a gap until the Sox felt guys like Sosa were more ready. If he's back I'll be really surprised.

Shewmake sucks and likely won't be with the team. At best they'll stick him in AAA. He was a former first round pick, though, and is the type of guy the Sox should be running through to see if they can get anything out of them.

Gowens was age appropriate for AA and pitched solidly. He also strikes out over 10 batters per 9. He'll probably be in AAA next season and could end up being a useful bullpen guy. Not sure he's a starter long-term, but we'll see.

Bummer rebounded nicely with a team that could play defense and actually scout. His contract extension has no bearing on the value of the trade.

Overall, the trade was fine.

Yes this crazy talk about Getz trying to get something for 2024 instead of some imagined good return for 2028 is ridiculous.

He did need players for 2024. Getz got crucified for the having the worst team in history then the same guy  says he tried too hard for wins in 2024. All he was doing was turning over the roster, dumping salary and starting over. Maybe u get lucky and end up flipping Soroka and Lopez .Didn't work out that way but Schuster and Soroka served a purpose.  They ate innings  letting prospects develop in the minors.

Every single person on this board knew 2024 and beyond was going to be a dumpster fire long before the season opened.

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

And instead we failed at getting anything out of Soroka and Lopez.  So much better.

Lol So every player in a 5 for 1 swap should be great when the 1 player was Aaron Bummer ? Why is this still a discussion ? Who cares. He was a shitty relief pitcher and they they got some usable 2024 players, a former 1st rounder and a decent prospect back . I'm sure the Braves or someone else had a 6'3  215 lb. DSL MVP who was able to leap tall buildings in a single bound they were willing to trade for Aaron fucking Bummer.

Edited Wednesday at 07:36 PM by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[almagest]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes this crazy talk about Getz trying to get something for 2024 instead of some imagined good return for 2028 is ridiculous.

He did need players for 2024. Getz got crucified for the having the wordt team in history then then same guy  says

Lol So every player in a 4 for 1 swap should be great when the 1 player was Aaron Bummer ? Why is this still a discussion ? Who cares. He was a shitty relief pitcher and they they got some usable 2024 players, a former 1st rounder and a decent prospect back . I'm sure the Braves or someone else had a 6'3  215 lb. DSL MVP who was able to leap tall buildings in a single bound they were willing to trade for Aaron fucking Bummer.

Like I said before, we unfortunately weren't trading with Rick Hahn.

[Balta1701]

25 minutes ago, almagest said:

Yeah, he was good enough in relief last year that someone with playoff aspirations will likely pick him up. Would be fine having him back but he's probably gone.

There's going to be plenty of guys available where plausibly tolerable relievers could get themselves $3-$5 million without it being with a playoff team. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

28 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is an awful flex.

It’s not a flex. If you’re that concerned about breaking the mlb loss record (which I wasn’t but perhaps Getz was and many people on here were) then the Bummer trade makes a lot more sense. Personally, I would have rather targeted another Gowens type than bring in multiple “mlb pieces” in an effort for a few more wins in 2024. To me 125 losses is no different than 100 losses. They’re both god awful seasons and that type of team should only be looking to the future in these types of trades.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s not a flex. If you’re that concerned about breaking the mlb loss record (which I wasn’t but perhaps Getz was and many people on here were) then the Bummer trade makes a lot more sense. Personally, I would have rather targeted another Gowens type than bring in multiple “mlb pieces” in an effort for a few more wins in 2024. To me 125 losses is no different than 100 losses. They’re both god awful seasons and that type of team should only be looking to the future in these types of trades.

They made the Bummer trade in large part to win games in 2024 and lost 20 more games than the previous year. 

They targeted guys like Nicky Lopez to improve what was the leagues worst defense.  They were even further behind the rest of the league as the leagues worst defense. 

They targeting pitching to try to fill out a rotation.  They were the worst pitching team in baseball. 

We got have one guy out of that trade that might have a decent future, and he isn't even a top 30 guy for the White Sox.  We got no future out of that deal.

This deal was an abject failure in every aspect.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They made the Bummer trade in large part to win games in 2024 and lost 20 more games than the previous year. 

They targeted guys like Nicky Lopez to improve what was the leagues worst defense.  They were even further behind the rest of the league as the leagues worst defense. 

They targeting pitching to try to fill out a rotation.  They were the worst pitching team in baseball. 

We got have one guy out of that trade that might have a decent future, and he isn't even a top 30 guy for the White Sox.  We got no future out of that deal.

This deal was an abject failure in every aspect.

Riley Gowens should be a T30 guy no? Shuster is an MLB reliever. There’s possibly more future with this trade than the Fedde/Kopech trade sadly.

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Riley Gowens should be a T30 guy no? Shuster is an MLB reliever. There’s possibly more future with this trade than the Fedde/Kopech trade sadly.

Gowans is not a top 30 guy right now.  Shuster was terrible last year for ATL and their AAA team.  He was awful at Charlotte and awful as a starter for the Sox.  As a reliever he gave up an OPS split of 110, meaning he was 10% worse than league average.  While his ERA fell as a reliever, all of his splits actually got worse.  He struck out less batters, gave up more H/9, a walk every other inning, and a not great HR rate.  He hasn't shown he was a MLB reliever by a long shot.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Gowans is not a top 30 guy right now.  Shuster was terrible last year for ATL and their AAA team.  He was awful at Charlotte and awful as a starter for the Sox.  As a reliever he gave up an OPS split of 110, meaning he was 10% worse than league average.  While his ERA fell as a reliever, all of his splits actually got worse.  He struck out less batters, gave up more H/9, a walk every other inning, and a not great HR rate.  He hasn't shown he was a MLB reliever by a long shot.

How is Gowans not a T30 guy? He had a great season, including AA, and has had a solid minor league track record ti this point. I’d certainly put him above guys like Nastrini, Eder, Burke, etc.

[fathom]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How is Gowans not a T30 guy? He had a great season, including AA, and has had a solid minor league track record ti this point. I’d certainly put him above guys like Nastrini, Eder, Burke, etc.

Over Burke?  No way