Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

 

You're leaving out key details to help paint the picture you want to paint. 

The Sox and the "Wherever" A's are the only two franchises not to hand out a $100 million dollar deal to a player. They've dipped their toe in the water on big name FA's, only to be left shocked when a player doesn't sign with them because someone else offered more money. 

JR may "want to win" but he wants to win his way. 2020 and 2021 was the first time in franchise history the organization went to back to back post seasons, and 2020 was a 60 game season. 

That same Oakland team I mentioned, have gone to the playoffs 11 times since 2000. The Sox have gone 5. And since 1917, there has only been one year in which the Sox have won a playoff series. Once. 

In your second post, you say "You sign one big contract" like history is on the Sox side to just sign this big name, franchise altering player. What historical evidence or data are using to come to the conclusion that is what the Sox will do? 

Why are we bringing the A's into this?   The White Sox in the 90's 00's, 10's and 20's have had top 5 payroll.  That's JR's budget.  The argument is the baseball guys spent it stupidly.  Fair enough.   But it seems we have finally come to terms with the fact that the KW/RH admin was stupid and gutted the organization.  But it wasn't because we had no payroll. And I didn't say "franchise altering prospect".   Alonso would be more in the Grandal/Keuchel/ Lynn sort of high second tier.  

[T R U]

21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

At the risk of being stoned to death...the horror of JR is overstated.  In 2022 White Sox had a $200 mill payroll.  I think he (And we) were all sort of blinded at how bad the organization structure was in 2022 because they had some real quality high-cost veterans, and a core of very exciting young players.  When the veterans got old and the core of youngsters fell apart there was nothing backing it up.    JR wants to win. He was over loyal to his baseball people KW, TLR and RH and in retrospect those guys had built up an organizational rot that seemed to have spread everywhere.   JR is embarrassed by the team.     Whatever Getz said in his interview, it seems like they get it...JR backed off as Getz has fired everyone in the organization.  Bannister, Fuller and Venable seem like really good hires.   Pouring money into analytics seems overdo...but they are doing it.  Minors seem way better than they've been.  Payroll has been cleared of deadwood.  Listening to Future Sox podcasts I feel excited about the last three drafts.  There is no defense of 2024 but I feel like they've been working on the fix for two years now and we aren't doomed to a lifetime of awful.        

Here's the difference..

2022 White Sox active roster payroll: $155,000,000 with no superstars just a collection of mediocre to ok players all making between 8-18 million. This is why you have an 81-81 team that can't get over the hump, among other things.

2024 Dodgers active roster payroll: $172,000,000 with superstar players like Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Shohei Ohtani. 98 wins and a championship, nothing more to say.

The White Sox will spend money, but they spend it in a totally inefficient way that is never going to work in todays game. The White Sox would rather have Joe Kelly, Kendall Graveman and AJ Pollock at a combined $29 million dollars than Bryce Harper at $27 million.

[PaleAleSox]

5 minutes ago, T R U said:

Here's the difference..

2022 White Sox active roster payroll: $155,000,000 with no superstars just a collection of mediocre to ok players all making between 8-18 million. This is why you have an 81-81 team that can't get over the hump, among other things.

2024 Dodgers active roster payroll: $172,000,000 with superstar players like Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Shohei Ohtani. 98 wins and a championship, nothing more to say.

The White Sox will spend money, but they spend it in a totally inefficient way that is never going to work in todays game. The White Sox would rather have Joe Kelly, Kendall Graveman and AJ Pollock at a combined $29 million dollars than Bryce Harper at $27 million.

Ohtani’s contract makes that look way less lopsided than it actually is, though. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

27 minutes ago, bmags said:

They had a $200 mill budget, but the restrictions he put on how to spend it means the team wastes on 1b/DH that are available for 4 year deals, and a s%*# ton of bullpen signings.

He let's sycophants run things for decades. His employees get charged for felonies for defrauding their own team, not trying to steal secrets of others.

The sox can only seem on the right path if you put on blinders to what other teams already have in place. Oh we started hiring from the outside? That's amazing, but 28 other teams do that routinely. It doesn't alone guarantee you can be one of the best teams in baseball by just doing normal s%*#.

I'm not sure that is how the organization works.  A sycophant is someone who sucks up to the boss.  Seems like JR let KW and RH run the baseball stuff and was wildly, sadly loyal to them...that is like sycophant in reverse.  Who's to say if Getz has a $200 million budget that he doesn't believe that signing Soto for $70 mil per year isn't better than spending $70 mill on Grandal/Keuchel/Lynn and a bunch of relief pitchers.  WE don't know.  What we know is that the budget HAS been high.  That's JR.  And we know it was done poorly.  

[fathom]

20 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I like the idea of Wilyer Abreu. He's 25-years-old and really good. I could get behind that depending on the rest of the package. I could see Braden Montgomery potentially being involved as well. 

Roman Anthony is the #1 prospect in baseball. He will not be involved. 

Campbell would be in it, IMO

[Jerksticks]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not sure that is how the organization works.  A sycophant is someone who sucks up to the boss.  Seems like JR let KW and RH run the baseball stuff and was wildly, sadly loyal to them...that is like sycophant in reverse.  Who's to say if Getz has a $200 million budget that he doesn't believe that signing Soto for $70 mil per year isn't better than spending $70 mill on Grandal/Keuchel/Lynn and a bunch of relief pitchers.  WE don't know.  What we know is that the budget HAS been high.  That's JR.  And we know it was done poorly.  

I’m not sure how the organization works either.  What we know is that they’ve had some high payrolls but they’ve also never signed a large contract for a top tier player.   Both are true.  It is what it is only until it isn’t.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, T R U said:

Here's the difference..

2022 White Sox active roster payroll: $155,000,000 with no superstars just a collection of mediocre to ok players all making between 8-18 million. This is why you have an 81-81 team that can't get over the hump, among other things.

2024 Dodgers active roster payroll: $172,000,000 with superstar players like Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, Shohei Ohtani. 98 wins and a championship, nothing more to say.

The White Sox will spend money, but they spend it in a totally inefficient way that is never going to work in todays game. The White Sox would rather have Joe Kelly, Kendall Graveman and AJ Pollock at a combined $29 million dollars than Bryce Harper at $27 million.

Not sure where the figures come from.  Sportrac had 2022 WS at $203 mill, 2022 (Dodgers at $270 mill.)  2024 Dodgers at $240 mill but with accounting nonsense Ohtani's $70 mill was only $2 mill.  So Dodgers were really at $310 mill.

Still I generally agree with you.   Better to give Elko a shot at DH or Cannon a 5th starter spot for nothing than to sign aging DH and aging 5th starter at $40 mill per year.  Bundle the savings on one or two difference makers.  But again...CROCHET should be that difference maker.  Let him prove it this year and next and then drop a 10 year $300 million contract on him

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I’m not sure how the organization works either.  What we know is that they’ve had some high payrolls but they’ve also never signed a large contract for a top tier player.   Both are true.  It is what it is only until it isn’t.  

That $100 million is just a number.  They signed Albert Belle in 1997 to a $55 million contract making him the highest paid player in baseball and two years late sighed Frank Thomas to a $64 million/7 year contract.  With baseball inflation those would be WAY higher than $100 million in 2024.  

[SoCalChiSox]

29 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I like the idea of Wilyer Abreu. He's 25-years-old and really good. I could get behind that depending on the rest of the package. I could see Braden Montgomery potentially being involved as well. 

Roman Anthony is the #1 prospect in baseball. He will not be involved. 

Yaay.....tablescraps and people we could have drafted if we wanted to (sound familiar?)!!!

I know I'm excited /s

 

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

40 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I like the idea of Wilyer Abreu. He's 25-years-old and really good. I could get behind that depending on the rest of the package. I could see Braden Montgomery potentially being involved as well. 

Roman Anthony is the #1 prospect in baseball. He will not be involved. 

I kinda think if they do take Benintendi back, they’d have to move one of their OFs since they have a lot of lefties and Abreu being a part of a deal would make sense.

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I kinda think if they do take Benintendi back, they’d have to move one of their OFs since they have a lot of lefties and Abreu being a part of a deal would make sense.

They might not even roster the guy.  They probably do like the White Sox should and eat the money and move on  like a real franchise.

[Tony]

44 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Why are we bringing the A's into this?   The White Sox in the 90's 00's, 10's and 20's have had top 5 payroll.  That's JR's budget.  The argument is the baseball guys spent it stupidly.  Fair enough.   But it seems we have finally come to terms with the fact that the KW/RH admin was stupid and gutted the organization.  But it wasn't because we had no payroll. And I didn't say "franchise altering prospect".   Alonso would be more in the Grandal/Keuchel/ Lynn sort of high second tier.  

Kenny and Rick had a lot of faults, but they also identified bringing in Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, Blake Wheeler, among others. They wanted to add them to the team. Why didn't any happen? Money. Is that a Kenny/Rick problem, or an owner and his budget? 

[GGajewski18]

31 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Yaay.....tablescraps and people we could have drafted if we wanted to (sound familiar?)!!!

I know I'm excited /s

 

 

 

Those prospects are not table scraps.  Abreu is pretty damn good and would solve the RF issue.  Then a combination of Campbell/Montgomery, Saltiban and an A ball flier would be great. 

[T R U]

36 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Not sure where the figures come from.  Sportrac had 2022 WS at $203 mill, 2022 (Dodgers at $270 mill.)  2024 Dodgers at $240 mill but with accounting nonsense Ohtani's $70 mill was only $2 mill.  So Dodgers were really at $310 mill.

Still I generally agree with you.   Better to give Elko a shot at DH or Cannon a 5th starter spot for nothing than to sign aging DH and aging 5th starter at $40 mill per year.  Bundle the savings on one or two difference makers.  But again...CROCHET should be that difference maker.  Let him prove it this year and next and then drop a 10 year $300 million contract on him

Their total payroll was $203 million, I was just using the active roster example to show the difference between having star power and spreading money out around average players.

The White Sox had to pay Dallas Keuchel $18 million to not play for them in 2022. 

[DirtySox]

There's no shot Anthony is on the table. Especially with how teams value high end position players currently.

That being said, Boston has plenty of interesting pieces. I wonder if the Sox would have interest in Braden Montgomery as part of a package. 

Edited 1 hour ago by DirtySox

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Campbell would be in it, IMO

deleted

Edited 1 hour ago by Squirmin' for Yermin

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 11/6/2024 at 10:36 AM, Balta1701 said:

I think Garret Crochet is dead set on getting paid a fair contract, and after how he has been treated in his career I totally understand that. THat's how he acted this season, if the White Sox want to pay him a fair contract then he would consider it.

A fair contract, for a starter who could genuinely be an all star multiple times during the contract, would be well over $200 million at this point. If the White Sox don't make that kind of offer, then it's not a serious bid. If they make an offer like Strasburg's final contract, that's both a serious offer and one that would get Crochet's side's attention.

I think you're wrong. Just because you think he's been jerked around and you think he resentful because you are  doesn't mean  he could get or deserves  $200M at this point in his career. It's just one , not even full season of very good pitching .1/2 season of normal SP and 1/2 of limited innings starts. How many 25 years olds with 2 yrs of eligibility left with 1 year of non injury starting pitching have got a $200M contract ? In 2 more years, sure, the sky is the limit.

Prove to me he's resentful about his previous treatment. Show me one interview where he expressed this.

Theres plenty of video around that he's happy with his treatment and plan  in 2024. So happy that he didn't want to deviate from it and risk going to another team unless he got assurances , by way of a new contract, that he would be compensated for risking his future earnings power.

He doesn't hold all the cards however. He's had arm problems and still has 2 more years to pitch to show consistency in both his ability and health. A lot can go wrong or go right. Thats not even close to $200M at the present moment. No GM would give that to him right now. Check back in 2 years or when he gets an extension from the team he's traded to without pitching a single inning for them.

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Campbell would be in it, IMO

I'm not sure. I don't think he has a defensive position. 

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Yaay.....tablescraps and people we could have drafted if we wanted to (sound familiar?)!!!

I know I'm excited /s

 

 

 

Table scraps is an absurd statement. Wilyer Abreu is a pretty good player. 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think you're wrong. Just because you think he's been jerked around and you think he resentful because you are  doesn't mean  he could get or deserves  $200M at this point in his career. It's just one , not even full season of very good pitching .1/2 season of normal SP and 1/2 of limited innings starts. How many 25 years olds with 2 yrs of eligibility left with 1 year of non injury starting pitching have got a $200M contract ? In 2 more years, sure, the sky is the limit.

Prove to me he's resentful about his previous treatment. Show me one interview where he expressed this.

Theres plenty of video around that he's happy with his treatment and plan  in 2024. So happy that he didn't want to deviate from it and risk going to another team unless he got assurances , by way of a new contract, that he would be compensated for risking his future earnings power.

He doesn't hold all the cards however. He's had arm problems and still has 2 more years to pitch to show consistency in both his ability and health. A lot can go wrong or go right. Thats not even close to $200M at the present moment. No GM would give that to him right now. Check back in 2 years or when he gets an extension from the team he's traded to without pitching a single inning for them.

Wow, Garrett Crochet has not been willing to publicly criticize his "Employer". Wow. I mean, that clearly proves he loves their work. After all, everyone is willing to criticize the "People who write their paychecks", right? That's the old saying, it is simply to get a person to believe something when their paycheck depends on them not believing it.

This is just dumb. The dude clearly, deliberately sabotaged any efforts to trade him publicly, while declaring how happy he was and oh really wouldn't you mind just a gigantic contract extension? 

And you're right he doesn't hold all the cards. But he's made his position very, very clear. He was pushed hard, early in his career and he's recognized that this is a threat to his earning potential, so his 1 and only goal is a long term, big money contract extension. If he can get that here, great. If not, he will do whatever he can to protect his arm, including refusing trades or refusing to pitch in the playoffs, to protect himself, after the abuse his arm took.

[Y2Jimmy0]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Wow, Garrett Crochet has not been willing to publicly criticize his "Employer". Wow. I mean, that clearly proves he loves their work. After all, everyone is willing to criticize the "People who write their paychecks", right? That's the old saying, it is simply to get a person to believe something when their paycheck depends on them not believing it.

This is just dumb. The dude clearly, deliberately sabotaged any efforts to trade him publicly, while declaring how happy he was and oh really wouldn't you mind just a gigantic contract extension? 

And you're right he doesn't hold all the cards. But he's made his position very, very clear. He was pushed hard, early in his career and he's recognized that this is a threat to his earning potential, so his 1 and only goal is a long term, big money contract extension. If he can get that here, great. If not, he will do whatever he can to protect his arm, including refusing trades or refusing to pitch in the playoffs, to protect himself, after the abuse his arm took.

I personally think the White Sox have bent over backwards to appease Garrett Crochet. He could've easily been in AA last year starting and not using up service time. 

[Timmy U]

Here's prospects I would be targeting as the lead player, if I were the Sox. Imagine they get one of the top guys, not multiples.  Generally, I am against guys whose service time clocks have already statrted because the Sox won't stop sucking by the time they're in arbitration. Also, I'm looking for impact. My greatest fear is they trade Crochet to the Mets for Baty.  Here goes:

Dodgers:

Zyhir Hope. (I'm a stan of this kid. Think he could be a star.)

Josue DePaula. (Not a great athlete, there's some Lefty Eloy risk, but it really looks like he can hit.)

Daulton Rushing. (I am not super in love with him. Probably is 1b for the Sox. Well-rounded hitter. Just not sure he'll ever be a star. Probably an upgrade on Vaughn, but Texas League and PCL numbers are always hard to read)

Alex Freeland. (He can't be the lead piece for me. Would love him as the second guy in a trade)

Mets:

Ryan Clifford (There's a lot of both swing and miss and 1b risk with Clifford. But there's impact. Sox liked him in the draft. He's the only one of their top prospects I would like to get.)

Jett Williams (Not a fan)

Drew Gilbert (Also not a fan)

Phillies:

Aidan Miller. (Just reminds me of what a bad pick Jacob Gonzalez was. But he's gonna hit and he'll be a decent defender somewhere in the infield even if he doesn't stick at short. Would be pleased if he was the lead piece)

Justin Crawford. (There's a lot to like. Oozes tools. Good defender. Unlike his dad he's got a good arm. Hits the ball on the ground a TON. If you're really convinced in your new hitting guy, maybe you take an upside shot?)

Andrew Painter (The only pitcher from any of these teams I'd even consider taking. But not gonna happen)

Red Sox:

Roman Anthony has been one of my favorite players in the minors since the day he was drafted. Not gonna get him.

Braden Montgomery (Not a switch-hitter really, but a good defender with a huge arm. Possibly blocked by Anthony. He's a risk because there are hit tool questions. But the Sox have to get upside here and the power is legit)

Kristian Campbell (There are position questions and upside questions. You may be buying high on one good year. That said, he consistently did damage all year long and is a hell of an athlete. He's gonna be a decent defender somewhere.)

I would not consider a trade with Wilyer Abreu as the headliner. For me, the upside is just not there, but we'll see what everyone's offering.

Finally, I don't believe they should trade Crochet unless they get at least one top guy. 4 B prospects would be a disastrous result.

 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Why are we bringing the A's into this?   The White Sox in the 90's 00's, 10's and 20's have had top 5 payroll.  That's JR's budget.  The argument is the baseball guys spent it stupidly.  Fair enough.   But it seems we have finally come to terms with the fact that the KW/RH admin was stupid and gutted the organization.  But it wasn't because we had no payroll. And I didn't say "franchise altering prospect".   Alonso would be more in the Grandal/Keuchel/ Lynn sort of high second tier.  

2006 was the only Top 5 payroll.

It didn't last long.

Just like 2021.

Losses immediately sent those payrolls falling back into the much more comfortable mid-teens in the MLB picking order.

 

https://tht.fangraphs.com/a-look-inside-the-2006-open-day-payrolls/

$103 million...

Edited 51 minutes ago by caulfield12

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

They might not even roster the guy.  They probably do like the White Sox should and eat the money and move on  like a real franchise.

I think Benintendi has some left in the tank.  The bat was solid June on, and was actually quite good in August and September.  He also looked more athletic in the field as the season went on; its obvious he really wasn't healthy in 23 and early 24.  He's overpaid without a doubt, but most FAs are, and I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility he could be positive WAR player the rest of his contract.  

I personally would just keep him.  He's a good first half away from being tradable.  Attaching him to Crochet is insanity and I refuse to believe its something they're actually considering.  They'll be a bottom 5 payroll in the league even with Beni, and badly need to maximize talent infusion. 

[ChiSox59]

18 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I personally think the White Sox have bent over backwards to appease Garrett Crochet. He could've easily been in AA last year starting and not using up service time. 

This.  Garrett Crochet owes a big thank you to the White Sox.  In most orgs, he'd be 4-5 years from free agency. 

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This.  Garrett Crochet owes a big thank you to the White Sox.  In most orgs, he'd be 4-5 years from free agency. 

Sure, but he'd would also be in line for MUCH bigger arb salaries, plus a lot less question marks heading towards free agency which could move him from a Tyler Glasnow type deal, to a Garrett Cole type deal.