Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think Benintendi has some left in the tank.  The bat was solid June on, and was actually quite good in August and September.  He also looked more athletic in the field as the season went on; its obvious he really wasn't healthy in 23 and early 24.  He's overpaid without a doubt, but most FAs are, and I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility he could be positive WAR player the rest of his contract.  

I personally would just keep him.  He's a good first half away from being tradable.  Attaching him to Crochet is insanity and I refuse to believe its something they're actually considering.  They'll be a bottom 5 payroll in the league even with Beni, and badly need to maximize talent infusion. 

Why would his wrist injury make him one of the worst outfielders in baseball the last two years?

On a White Sox team soon to be without Robert...you're really expecting 2-3 fWAR seasons again despite his defense only being slightly better than the likes of Vaughn and Jimenez out there.  He has routinely been run on probably as much as any LFer in the majors.

We keep forgetting corner outfielders are expected to hit 30-35 homers if offense is their only tool.

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Why would his wrist injury make him one of the worst outfielders in baseball the last two years?

On a White Sox team soon to be without Robert...you're really expecting 2-3 fWAR seasons again despite his defense only being slightly better than the likes of Vaughn and Jimenez out there.  He has routinely been run on probably as much as any LFer in the majors.

We keep forgetting corner outfielders are expected to hit 30-35 homers if offense is their only tool.

He's also dealt with achilles issues, which certainly would impact mobility and athleticism in the OF.  Sounds like he played through it April/May before hitting the IL in early June with it.  

Not really defending his OF defense, its been mostly terrible.  It routinely look like he wasn't even trying out there.  He did look noticeably better out there towards the end of 24 though.  

Where did I say he's going to be a 2-3 WAR player?  I said "its not beyond the realm of possibility he will be a positive WAR player..".  As in like the 0.5-1 WAR range. 

Edited November 8 by ChiSox59

[Bob Sacamano]

27 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Sure, but he'd would also be in line for MUCH bigger arb salaries, plus a lot less question marks heading towards free agency which could move him from a Tyler Glasnow type deal, to a Garrett Cole type deal.

Idk I think I’d rather hit free agency sooner and not deal with minor league travel.

[Bob Sacamano]

43 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think Benintendi has some left in the tank.  The bat was solid June on, and was actually quite good in August and September.  He also looked more athletic in the field as the season went on; its obvious he really wasn't healthy in 23 and early 24.  He's overpaid without a doubt, but most FAs are, and I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility he could be positive WAR player the rest of his contract.  

I personally would just keep him.  He's a good first half away from being tradable.  Attaching him to Crochet is insanity and I refuse to believe its something they're actually considering.  They'll be a bottom 5 payroll in the league even with Beni, and badly need to maximize talent infusion. 

I wouldn’t do it either but until Crochet is traded without him, the possibility exists.

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Idk I think I’d rather hit free agency sooner and not deal with minor league travel.

This could cost him a hundred million dollars, or more.  Is it worth hitting free agency sooner if you take a haircut on your earnings because your employer wasted years of your career in the pen because they didn't want to spend on a reliever.

[WestEddy]

3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Pasquantino is not much better than Vaughn.  Vaughn had .750 OPS the previous two years P had .760...and I'm not really counting on Vaughn as more than a failed prospect.  I said they should sign a big contract on a hitter. So Alonso + Vaughn is as good as Salvy + P and I think Montgomery, Quero and Soso could be better than the Royals 4-5-6 bats.

As for "we will never do this"...it's a new era.  There is a ton of payroll available.   Getz seems in charge.  He drafted Smith...the idea of three amazing left handed starters is fun.   

KC made the playoffs by being gifted a 12-1 record against the White Sox. I don't disagree with your argument as vociferously as the mods, here, but KC shouldn't have made the playoffs this year. If the White Sox were even a AAAA team, Seattle gets KC's slot. 

Yes, the White Sox have the makings of a hum-drum pitching rotation. Cannon, Martin and Thorpe are easily #4s on any competitive team. Yes, they have Schultz, Smith and Taylor. They're not here, yet. Burke might even be a nice #3 if he's firing on all cylinders. 

Great, big, positive me expects next year's bullpen to be a slightly better version of last year's. Some home grown guys will make it cheaper. Wilson, Leasure, Ellard and Berroa have a rough season under their belts, and there's a few nice, minor league arms who can step up and be Justin Anderson for a season. Yes, I mean Justin Anderson, and not in a good way. 

I would also expect some focus on offense to result in some gains. Sosa, Vaughn (if he stays), Benintendi, Fletcher and Ramos can't really get worse. I wouldn't bet on Quero or Monty having anything more than a bumpy year getting their feet wet when they get promoted. 

A Crochet trade would probably be maxed out by taking prospects that are further away. Nobody's trading their top 10 in the game, AAA CF for Crochet. You might get that guy who smacks the s%*# out of it in A+, though. 

I always think this team isn't all that far away as the glum, here, think, but they're not getting 50 games better in one off-season. 

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, GGajewski18 said:

Those prospects are not table scraps.  Abreu is pretty damn good and would solve the RF issue.  Then a combination of Campbell/Montgomery, Saltiban and an A ball flier would be great. 

Abreu was  solid last year but only against RH pitching. He really struggled against lefties and was eventually sitting against left handed pitching. Now Abreu is young, hit well, good base runner and he has a solid RF arm. But it is a little scary that he is the best player on our side  in case he keeps struggling against lefties. Maybe he just needs time to adjust to LH pitching but it is cause for thought. 

[almagest]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

He's also dealt with achilles issues, which certainly would impact mobility and athleticism in the OF.  Sounds like he played through it April/May before hitting the IL in early June with it.  

Not really defending his OF defense, its been mostly terrible.  It routinely look like he wasn't even trying out there.  He did look noticeably better out there towards the end of 24 though.  

Where did I say he's going to be a 2-3 WAR player?  I said "its not beyond the realm of possibility he will be a positive WAR player..".  As in like the 0.5-1 WAR range. 

.850 OPS over the last month of the season. I'd keep him as well and bet on a solid first half to make him tradable for at least a lotto ticket, assuming the Sox don't pay his salary. It's not like they have some stud LF blocked in the minors.

[fathom]

Sounds from reports like Boston is in on Crochet big time.  

[PaleAleSox]

17 minutes ago, almagest said:

.850 OPS over the last month of the season. I'd keep him as well and bet on a solid first half to make him tradable for at least a lotto ticket, assuming the Sox don't pay his salary. It's not like they have some stud LF blocked in the minors.

Yeah I think you keep him in left and hope you can move him at the deadline, or worst case next offseason.  He was an actual guy the last few months. 

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

Sounds from reports like Boston is in on Crochet big time.  

That report was unreal in the amount of detail it had in it.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, fathom said:

Sounds from reports like Boston is in on Crochet big time.  

Can we get Mayer or Campbell?

[fathom]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

That report was unreal in the amount of detail it had in it.

I saw one where a Boston writer said the WSox were heavily scouting the Red Sox at end of last year, but that Anthony is off limits.

[PaleAleSox]

Red Sox trying to get it done before Winter Meetings? 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, PaleAleSox said:

Red Sox trying to get it done before Winter Meetings? 

For the White Sox sake, they can't f*** this up.  They either they need Boston to man up, or they need to use the Red Sox offer to extract more from other teams.  Look this team blew the Cease deal to some extent, and they blew the Fedde deal big time.  They only have a couple of more in demand assets to trade, with Crochet being the diamond.  They have got to get at least three starting players out of this deal if they want any hope at moving this rebuild along from the outside.

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

KC made the playoffs by being gifted a 12-1 record against the White Sox. I don't disagree with your argument as vociferously as the mods, here, but KC shouldn't have made the playoffs this year. If the White Sox were even a AAAA team, Seattle gets KC's slot. 

Yes, the White Sox have the makings of a hum-drum pitching rotation. Cannon, Martin and Thorpe are easily #4s on any competitive team. Yes, they have Schultz, Smith and Taylor. They're not here, yet. Burke might even be a nice #3 if he's firing on all cylinders. 

Great, big, positive me expects next year's bullpen to be a slightly better version of last year's. Some home grown guys will make it cheaper. Wilson, Leasure, Ellard and Berroa have a rough season under their belts, and there's a few nice, minor league arms who can step up and be Justin Anderson for a season. Yes, I mean Justin Anderson, and not in a good way. 

I would also expect some focus on offense to result in some gains. Sosa, Vaughn (if he stays), Benintendi, Fletcher and Ramos can't really get worse. I wouldn't bet on Quero or Monty having anything more than a bumpy year getting their feet wet when they get promoted. 

A Crochet trade would probably be maxed out by taking prospects that are further away. Nobody's trading their top 10 in the game, AAA CF for Crochet. You might get that guy who smacks the s%*# out of it in A+, though. 

I always think this team isn't all that far away as the glum, here, think, but they're not getting 50 games better in one off-season. 

I'm not saying they have a good shot at the playoffs next year.  I'm saying a 25-year-old lefty with ace stuff traded for some team's 2nd best prospect and some wild cards has enormous risks.  When the White Sox traded Chris Sale and Jose Quintana they were each 28.   Carlos Rodon was 29 when they let him go.  I think that matters.   Montreal traded a tall power pitching lefty with ace like stuff when he was 25.  Don't you have some fear we are trading Randy Johnson?  Everyone falls in love with some other team's "beasts" that are going to crush MLB pitching and then SO many fail.  Yes there is a danger that Crochet's arm falls off but I watched Crochet last year, no one on this board or anywhere else thought he could pitch 149 innings.   His last two starts against playoff teams and he threw 8 innings, 5 hits, 1 walk 14 k's no runs.  Ugh and we are going to trade him for Yoan Moncada or Eloy Jimeniz 

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 hours ago, Tony said:

Kenny and Rick had a lot of faults, but they also identified bringing in Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, Blake Wheeler, among others. They wanted to add them to the team. Why didn't any happen? Money. Is that a Kenny/Rick problem, or an owner and his budget? 

White Sox had the top offer for Wheeler.  They had $300 mill plus incentives on the table for Machado and signed his two best friends to be on the team.  In spite the narrative that lives here, they weren't trying to bargain basement offer the guys because of JR's cheapness.   I don't know why they never tried for Harper.  Always thought he was the best fit for the team at the time.   

[46DidIt]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Why would his wrist injury make him one of the worst outfielders in baseball the last two years?

On a White Sox team soon to be without Robert...you're really expecting 2-3 fWAR seasons again despite his defense only being slightly better than the likes of Vaughn and Jimenez out there.  He has routinely been run on probably as much as any LFer in the majors.

We keep forgetting corner outfielders are expected to hit 30-35 homers if offense is their only tool.

Depending on who you consider a dh, there were 5-7 corner outfielders who hit 30 HR last year

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

White Sox had the top offer for Wheeler.  They had $300 mill plus incentives on the table for Machado and signed his two best friends to be on the team.  In spite the narrative that lives here, they weren't trying to bargain basement offer the guys because of JR's cheapness.   I don't know why they never tried for Harper.  Always thought he was the best fit for the team at the time.   

I thought the White Sox offer was higher per season, but it was shorter based on both years and total dollars?I twas more like 7/240 if I remember right.

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

2006 was the only Top 5 payroll.

It didn't last long.

Just like 2021.

Losses immediately sent those payrolls falling back into the much more comfortable mid-teens in the MLB picking order.

 

https://tht.fangraphs.com/a-look-inside-the-2006-open-day-payrolls/

$103 million...

1995 5th highest

2006 4th

2011 5th 

2022 7th 

As I've argued here in the past, JR is a businessman and he recognizes that Sox fans come if the team is good but they don't if the team is bad.  Their base attendance looks like 17,000 per game.  But when the team is winning it's more like 27,000 a game.  10,000 fans x 81 x $100 is $81 million a year extra between Ok and good. Post WS it was nearly 37,000 per game which is like $160 mill extra revenue.  JR spends when the fans come.   Cubs base is more like 30,000 per game.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I thought the White Sox offer was higher per season, but it was shorter based on both years and total dollars?I twas more like 7/240 if I remember right.

It seems like there were incentives that would bring it to over $300 mill.  From going and looking back...the Yankees dropped out at 7 years $220 mill while the WSox had 8/$250 plus incentives plus signing his two best friends.   He signed for 10 years $300 million.  I just think this idea that they were uncompetitive because of JR's cheapness when they outbid the Yankees is just fiction.  

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

For the White Sox sake, they can't f*** this up.  They either they need Boston to man up, or they need to use the Red Sox offer to extract more from other teams.  Look this team blew the Cease deal to some extent, and they blew the Fedde deal big time.  They only have a couple of more in demand assets to trade, with Crochet being the diamond.  They have got to get at least three starting players out of this deal if they want any hope at moving this rebuild along from the outside.

You'd think the AL East teams would almost strategically prefer to improve the White Sox so as to improve their WC odds by the Chisox not getting run over by the entire AL Central.

Without two 1-1's it's tough to push the rebuild along quickly...there would be more pressure on JR to spend in FA OR at least sell it to someone who's committed to competing ASAP.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It seems like there were incentives that would bring it to over $300 mill.  From going and looking back...the Yankees dropped out at 7 years $220 mill while the WSox had 8/$250 plus incentives plus signing his two best friends.   He signed for 10 years $300 million.  I just think this idea that they were uncompetitive because of JR's cheapness when they outbid the Yankees is just fiction.  

Not legitimately going after Harper was equally dumb...

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not sure that is how the organization works.  A sycophant is someone who sucks up to the boss.  Seems like JR let KW and RH run the baseball stuff and was wildly, sadly loyal to them...that is like sycophant in reverse.  Who's to say if Getz has a $200 million budget that he doesn't believe that signing Soto for $70 mil per year isn't better than spending $70 mill on Grandal/Keuchel/Lynn and a bunch of relief pitchers.  WE don't know.  What we know is that the budget HAS been high.  That's JR.  And we know it was done poorly.  

No offense, but no, we know Jerry won’t commit massive dollars to big time free agents.  The year Machado & Harper were free agents, Hahn was slyly suggesting he wanted to sign two whales.  For all his warts, Rick desperately wanted to buck the “Jerry won’t sign stars” trend.  Unfortunately Jerry is a risk adverse b**** and would rather burn fucktons of cash on mediocre free agents who will likely to flop than take a calculated risk on a large, long-term deal.

[Tony]

38 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

White Sox had the top offer for Wheeler.  They had $300 mill plus incentives on the table for Machado and signed his two best friends to be on the team.  In spite the narrative that lives here, they weren't trying to bargain basement offer the guys because of JR's cheapness.   I don't know why they never tried for Harper.  Always thought he was the best fit for the team at the time.   

What's the common theme in all of these? They didn't sign the player.

Instead of offering the most money for Machado, they signed his brother in law. 

Close doesn't count in baseball, close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.