Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[Tony]

52 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not saying they have a good shot at the playoffs next year.  I'm saying a 25-year-old lefty with ace stuff traded for some team's 2nd best prospect and some wild cards has enormous risks.  When the White Sox traded Chris Sale and Jose Quintana they were each 28.   Carlos Rodon was 29 when they let him go.  I think that matters.   Montreal traded a tall power pitching lefty with ace like stuff when he was 25.  Don't you have some fear we are trading Randy Johnson?  Everyone falls in love with some other team's "beasts" that are going to crush MLB pitching and then SO many fail.  Yes there is a danger that Crochet's arm falls off but I watched Crochet last year, no one on this board or anywhere else thought he could pitch 149 innings.   His last two starts against playoff teams and he threw 8 innings, 5 hits, 1 walk 14 k's no runs.  Ugh and we are going to trade him for Yoan Moncada or Eloy Jimeniz 

I actually agree with this, but it also goes against what you're arguing with me on Jerry. If the Sox wanted to, they could absolutely find a way to sign Crochet to a long term extension. 

They won't do it, because they don't want to spend the money. 

[WestEddy]

38 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not saying they have a good shot at the playoffs next year.  I'm saying a 25-year-old lefty with ace stuff traded for some team's 2nd best prospect and some wild cards has enormous risks.  When the White Sox traded Chris Sale and Jose Quintana they were each 28.   Carlos Rodon was 29 when they let him go.  I think that matters.   Montreal traded a tall power pitching lefty with ace like stuff when he was 25.  Don't you have some fear we are trading Randy Johnson?  Everyone falls in love with some other team's "beasts" that are going to crush MLB pitching and then SO many fail.  Yes there is a danger that Crochet's arm falls off but I watched Crochet last year, no one on this board or anywhere else thought he could pitch 149 innings.   His last two starts against playoff teams and he threw 8 innings, 5 hits, 1 walk 14 k's no runs.  Ugh and we are going to trade him for Yoan Moncada or Eloy Jimeniz 

You seem to have shifted gears. I am positive about this off-season, next season's team, and our prospects for being competitive. KC is a nice story, but we're not there. 

The Sox never invested in "development", that's why when a window closed, they found themselves at the rebuild part of the cycle. A team has to be pumping prospects into the parent team. 

 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, Tony said:

I actually agree with this, but it also goes against what you're arguing with me on Jerry. If the Sox wanted to, they could absolutely find a way to sign Crochet to a long term extension. 

They won't do it, because they don't want to spend the money. 

I'm arguing that the "fact" that they won't sign Crochet is just our battered opinions.  I have presented the truth that JR will pay a top five payroll, that they HAVE given the highest contract in the game (1997 Albert Belle) and followed that up two years later with Frank getting a $64 mill contract which in 2024 dollars is WAY more than $100 mill...and that Getz is doing things differently.  What is a greater disaster...hoping Crochet becomes Randy Johnson and his arm falls off, or trading him, he becomes Randy Johnson and you end up with Yoan Moncada 2.0?  For me option 2 is much more painful.   

[WhiteSox2023]

27 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It seems like there were incentives that would bring it to over $300 mill.  From going and looking back...the Yankees dropped out at 7 years $220 mill while the WSox had 8/$250 plus incentives plus signing his two best friends.   He signed for 10 years $300 million.  I just think this idea that they were uncompetitive because of JR's cheapness when they outbid the Yankees is just fiction.  

Get back to us when one of those high priced free agents actually signs with the Sox.  The highest Sox contract ever is still 5/$75.

[WestEddy]

27 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It seems like there were incentives that would bring it to over $300 mill.  From going and looking back...the Yankees dropped out at 7 years $220 mill while the WSox had 8/$250 plus incentives plus signing his two best friends.   He signed for 10 years $300 million.  I just think this idea that they were uncompetitive because of JR's cheapness when they outbid the Yankees is just fiction.  

I think they were outbid because Hahn was too clever by half. I believe 10/300 was thrown out there by the agent, and they played around, getting to 10/290, or something, if all of the incentives were met. San Diego basically just wrote what they said they wanted on a contract and slid it across the table. 

[kitekrazy]

On 11/6/2024 at 7:46 AM, SoxAce said:

I'm scared. It's early, but this is the one area Getz has proven (so far) he isn't very good at. 

I've heard some known podcasts that are just as equally ridiculous.

One was Vaughn and Crochet for D'Backs top SS "prospect".

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to have shifted gears. I am positive about this off-season, next season's team, and our prospects for being competitive. KC is a nice story, but we're not there. 

The Sox never invested in "development", that's why when a window closed, they found themselves at the rebuild part of the cycle. A team has to be pumping prospects into the parent team. 

 

 

I'm not shifting gears???   I'm just the least drunk guy at the AA meeting. I don't think we are doomed to 10 years of 100 loss baseball as many here seem to think.  Yes yes yes...the sox did not do things right in the past...that's exactly what I was saying...they covered up organizational rot with big payroll and hot shot young core.  Getz seems to recognize that and they are working hard to fix it.  Yes Getz was in charge of the minors but seems like maybe what he took away from his time then is Holy Crap we are doomed we need to change things.   They've had three or four good drafts in a row.  They are taking the minors seriously.  Revamping their international scouting.  Drafting high schoolers like Wolkow, trading for teenagers like Zavala, signing international guys like Mogollon.   In 2022 the MLB team looked great hiding the disaster that was behind it.  In 2024 the MLB was a disaster hiding what I think is some coming excitement.   Crochet, Smith, Schultz, Taylor could be glorious.  

[kitekrazy]

13 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to have shifted gears. I am positive about this off-season, next season's team, and our prospects for being competitive. KC is a nice story, but we're not there. 

The Sox never invested in "development", that's why when a window closed, they found themselves at the rebuild part of the cycle. A team has to be pumping prospects into the parent team. 

 

 

Maybe a decade from now.

Competitive is a vague term.  For Sox fans I'll assume that is the myth of post season coming into July and losing close to 90 at the end,  We've seen this movie before.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm arguing that the "fact" that they won't sign Crochet is just our battered opinions.  I have presented the truth that JR will pay a top five payroll, that they HAVE given the highest contract in the game (1997 Albert Belle) and followed that up two years later with Frank getting a $64 mill contract which in 2024 dollars is WAY more than $100 mill...and that Getz is doing things differently.  What is a greater disaster...hoping Crochet becomes Randy Johnson and his arm falls off, or trading him, he becomes Randy Johnson and you end up with Yoan Moncada 2.0?  For me option 2 is much more painful.   

I've argued all of the Belle/Wheeler/Machado arguments multiple times. However, the Sox aren't going to spend up to a top 5 payroll in the game coming off of a 41-win season. They've pushed into the top 5 when they were in or at their window. They signed Belle when they were one of the top teams in the league. 

Maybe Getz has mad sales skills, but I don't think he's talking Soto into taking our money to suck for 4 years. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I think they were outbid because Hahn was too clever by half. I believe 10/300 was thrown out there by the agent, and they played around, getting to 10/290, or something, if all of the incentives were met. San Diego basically just wrote what they said they wanted on a contract and slid it across the table. 

I mean clearly you are right because they didn't get him.   Still If I come to you and say "here is generational wealth plus your two best friends will be on the team" and someone else says "here's a little more money" I'm not certain which way I would go.  I think it was a serious effort and it failed.  Wheeler was the BEST offer and it failed.  Sox luck has been bad

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

That report was unreal in the amount of detail it had in it.

Can someone summarize the report?

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I mean clearly you are right because they didn't get him.   Still If I come to you and say "here is generational wealth plus your two best friends will be on the team" and someone else says "here's a little more money" I'm not certain which way I would go.  I think it was a serious effort and it failed.  Wheeler was the BEST offer and it failed.  Sox luck has been bad

I was once at a garage sale. Old man asked the seller how much for the milk crate of Simpsons' VHS cassettes. Seller said "....give me $3, and you can have the whole crate." Old man countered with $2, and the seller told him to forget it, that he wasn't going to sell them to him at any price, now. 

The Sox "bad luck" on Machado was they thought they could be cute by signing his B-i-L and childhood friend, and piece together insulting incentives to almost get to what he asked for. Wheeler was bad luck. 

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

For the White Sox sake, they can't f*** this up.  They either they need Boston to man up, or they need to use the Red Sox offer to extract more from other teams.  Look this team blew the Cease deal to some extent, and they blew the Fedde deal big time.  They only have a couple of more in demand assets to trade, with Crochet being the diamond.  They have got to get at least three starting players out of this deal if they want any hope at moving this rebuild along from the outside.

But.....they will

No more trying to package unwanted players either

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I've argued all of the Belle/Wheeler/Machado arguments multiple times. However, the Sox aren't going to spend up to a top 5 payroll in the game coming off of a 41-win season. They've pushed into the top 5 when they were in or at their window. They signed Belle when they were one of the top teams in the league. 

Maybe Getz has mad sales skills, but I don't think he's talking Soto into taking our money to suck for 4 years. 

I'm not saying they will go from $38 mill payroll to $240 mill payroll this offseason.  I'm saying that there are GM's out there that never have a budget above bottom 10.  That's NOT the White Sox.   JR will spend money if there is a plan to make the team plus attendance better.   I don't think they will ever again get into an open bidding war because if they don't win...it just feeds the negativity beast.  But I think Soto at 26, with negative defensive value not getting Ohtani money is not impossible.  Sox behind the scenes throwing out a $500 mill offer?  Not impossible.  Convincing him of charismatic new manager, building a marketing machine to push him as the face of Chicago, Aces on the way?  not impossible.   

[WhiteSox2023]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Can someone summarize the report?

I think this is the article but maybe @southsider2k5 can correct me if I’m wrong…

“Red Sox ‘right in the thick’ of Garrett Crochet trade talks (MLB Notebook)”

Some notable excerpts…

Quote

“I think they’re right in the thick of things,” said a baseball person with knowledge of the White Sox’ thinking. “It will come down to (what they’re willing to offer), but from a talent standpoint, they match up well. They didn’t show as much interest (as others) at the trade deadline (last summer), but the interest has increased in the offseason and they’re sending the message: ‘We want to be involved in this, we want to be involved in these talks.’

“I definitely think they’re one of five or so teams that are legitimate, real teams that match up prospect-wise.”

Quote

And according to another source, in anticipation of the Red Sox being a good trade partner, the White Sox actually pulled one scout off regular coverage in September and assigned him to fully evaluate the Red Sox’ minor league system.

Quote

Within the White Sox’ organization, there’s an understanding that the Red Sox are unlikely to include Anthony, rated by some as the top prospect in the game, in any package to land Crochet. The Red Sox will likely make at least one more member of the “Big Four” untouchable, too.

Edited November 8 by WhiteSox2023

[Balta1701]

40 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I think they were outbid because Hahn was too clever by half. I believe 10/300 was thrown out there by the agent, and they played around, getting to 10/290, or something, if all of the incentives were met. San Diego basically just wrote what they said they wanted on a contract and slid it across the table. 

The White Sox's offer was 10/$250 with no opt out. There were team options for years 11 and 12 that would have taken the total value up to $310 million. San Diego gave 10/$300 with an opt out after 5 years (which, notably, was used to get Machado quite a bit more money). 

They were outbid because they weren't actually serious, they didn't actually believe anyone would pay $300 million on an infielder because they don't believe players are worth those prices. They genuinely thought they were going to get both Harper and Machado for around $200 million each.

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not saying they will go from $38 mill payroll to $240 mill payroll this offseason.  I'm saying that there are GM's out there that never have a budget above bottom 10.  That's NOT the White Sox.   JR will spend money if there is a plan to make the team plus attendance better.   I don't think they will ever again get into an open bidding war because if they don't win...it just feeds the negativity beast.  But I think Soto at 26, with negative defensive value not getting Ohtani money is not impossible.  Sox behind the scenes throwing out a $500 mill offer?  Not impossible.  Convincing him of charismatic new manager, building a marketing machine to push him as the face of Chicago, Aces on the way?  not impossible.   

It is 100% possible that Jerry Reinsdorf will not commit to a top 15 payroll any time in the next several years because he feels the need to keep payroll liabilities low for the team being either sold to a new owner or moved.

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I mean clearly you are right because they didn't get him.   Still If I come to you and say "here is generational wealth plus your two best friends will be on the team" and someone else says "here's a little more money" I'm not certain which way I would go.  I think it was a serious effort and it failed.  Wheeler was the BEST offer and it failed.  Sox luck has been bad

The White Sox SAID that they gave Wheeler the best offer. You are trusting Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams's honor and veracity on a story that makes them look like the martyred heroes.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

I actually agree with this, but it also goes against what you're arguing with me on Jerry. If the Sox wanted to, they could absolutely find a way to sign Crochet to a long term extension. 

They won't do it, because they don't want to spend the money. 

This.  They won't extend him, and they sure as hell aren't spending real money this winter.

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I think this is the article but maybe @southsider2k5 can correct me if I’m wrong…

“Red Sox ‘right in the thick’ of Garrett Crochet trade talks (MLB Notebook)”

Some notable excerpts…

And they get into certain prospects in other spots.

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The White Sox SAID that they gave Wheeler the best offer. You are trusting Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams's honor and veracity on a story that makes them look like the martyred heroes.

And nobody disputed that. Until Wheeler, his wife, or his agent comes out and calls that a lie, we can assume it's true. 

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And nobody disputed that. Until Wheeler, his wife, or his agent comes out and calls that a lie, we can assume it's true. 

From the same team (Kenny, I believe) that said he believed the Sox offer to Machado was actually better than the deal he signed?

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/02/19/manny-machado-padres-contract-kenny-williams-white-sox-shocked-free-agency

C’mon…

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And nobody disputed that. Until Wheeler, his wife, or his agent comes out and calls that a lie, we can assume it's true. 

Why would they have cared? They clearly signed with a better team with better coaches and now have a much richer second contract out of it that they'd never have gotten in Chicago. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm arguing that the "fact" that they won't sign Crochet is just our battered opinions.  I have presented the truth that JR will pay a top five payroll, that they HAVE given the highest contract in the game (1997 Albert Belle) and followed that up two years later with Frank getting a $64 mill contract which in 2024 dollars is WAY more than $100 mill...and that Getz is doing things differently.  What is a greater disaster...hoping Crochet becomes Randy Johnson and his arm falls off, or trading him, he becomes Randy Johnson and you end up with Yoan Moncada 2.0?  For me option 2 is much more painful.   

Albert Belle was signed to deliberately point out the foolishness of such contracts to other owners…luckily they found a sucker in Balt. 

 

Thomas’ came after the best 7-8 year run of a RH hitter in modern baseball history and also had the infamous “diminished skills clause” attached despite that aforementioned run of greatness.
 

7 years/$64.4M (1998-2004), plus club options for 2005, 2006

• 99:$7.15M, 00:$7.25M, 01:$10.375M, 02:$10.3M, 03:$10.3M, 04:$10.3M, 05:$10.3M option, 06:$10.3M option

• White Sox invoked “diminished skills clause” 10/02, allowing the club to defer $10.124M/year if Thomas did not make the All Star team, win a Silver Slugger award or rank in the top 10 of MVP vote for 2002. Thomas filed for free agency 10/02 before agreeing to re

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Why would they have cared? They clearly signed with a better team with better coaches and now have a much richer second contract out of it that they'd never have gotten in Chicago. 

Why do you care? Why can't it be possible that when the Sox were at the height of their competitive window, they bid the highest on a free agent, and he took less money to go elsewhere? 

Seriously, if you have evidence that did not happen, let us know. Otherwise, I can only assume all of this is in service of the popular narrative, here.