Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[Fielder Jones]

23 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's 3 days younger than Crochet who put up a 4 WAR in his first half a season as a starter.  

If the days are over where you get a top hitting prospect...why are we trading him????  

We probably would get more in return if we concentrated on pitching. That's the market right now. But if you are gonna reload you have to..somehow....get like a hitter at some point. At least one of our 9 guys has to be able to hit

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, T R U said:

Just because they don’t have a great track record of development doesn’t mean they never develop anyone. 

Pretending they don't trade Crochet, 4 of the 5 projected 2025 rotational starters were drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

31 minutes ago, Fielder Jones said:

We probably would get more in return if we concentrated on pitching. That's the market right now. But if you are gonna reload you have to..somehow....get like a hitter at some point. At least one of our 9 guys has to be able to hit

Concentrate on pitching??  How about this...we trade him for a 25-year-old, with two full years of very cheap control, low mileage on his arm, already had TJS but two full years removed and in his first full year as a starter was one of top five pitchers in the majors?  How about we get that guy.  

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Vaughn is better than Torkelson and we think he's a bust.   Korey Lee is better than Dingler and we think he is a bust.  Jobe = Schultz.   By almost every metric Crochet was a top 5 pitcher in baseball in his first season as a starter and he's 25 with almost no tread off the tire.   If we trade Crochet for Vaughn, Lee and Schultz and say just getting Schultz is a win...really? Montreal traded a power lefty pitcher at 25 and for the next 12 years he averaged 7 WAR a season and then he got better.  

We love prospects too much and what's even worse is that by all accounts...we won't even GET a team's top prospects for Crochet just secondary prospects.  

My point about Holliday and Mayo is that we write off our SSS guys like FG top 60 Ramos because he didn't do it in the majors but then say other teams SSS failure are just an illusion.  

Even if I grant you projecting bust on everyone, you've missed my entire point. You'd trade Crochet for Schultz every time. Because your team BLOWS, your pitcher is two years from free agency and has managed one injury free season out of four -- while Schultz has SIX years of control. 

I mean for those who are trying to imagine ADDING to this roster, I feel the need to remind you that it CANNOT be exaggerated how bad this team is. This is THE worst team. Keeping a depreciating asset instead of converting it to one that can appreciate is weirdly similar the literal definition of bad process. If you want to keep the two decent players on the roster because you want to watch someone good pitch every five days for a 110 loss team, that's fine, but it's not how you move toward the next championship.

[WhiteSox2023]

52 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Pretending they don't trade Crochet, 4 of the 5 projected 2025 rotational starters were drafted and developed by the White Sox. 

Yep.  Starting pitching is the one thing the Sox can actually develop.  Position players?  No.

All the more reason Getz should be trying to trade Crochet for 2-3 good position prospects as the rumors have stated.

[Chicago White Sox]

56 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Concentrate on pitching??  How about this...we trade him for a 25-year-old, with two full years of very cheap control, low mileage on his arm, already had TJS but two full years removed and in his first full year as a starter was one of top five pitchers in the majors?  How about we get that guy.  

Awesome, hopefully we can win a World Series in the next two years then.

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

2011 Phillies starting five rotation was worth 30 WAR.  

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

Even if I grant you projecting bust on everyone, you've missed my entire point. You'd trade Crochet for Schultz every time. Because your team BLOWS, your pitcher is two years from free agency and has managed one injury free season out of four -- while Schultz has SIX years of control. 

I mean for those who are trying to imagine ADDING to this roster, I feel the need to remind you that it CANNOT be exaggerated how bad this team is. This is THE worst team. Keeping a depreciating asset instead of converting it to one that can appreciate is weirdly similar the literal definition of bad process. If you want to keep the two decent players on the roster because you want to watch someone good pitch every five days for a 110 loss team, that's fine, but it's not how you move toward the next championship.

Honestly if we go with the premise that the White Sox will never spend money for their roster (top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's).  Will never pay a top of the market pitching contract (Danks in 2012, Wheeler in 2020, Liam, Lynn $18 mill per year extensions for older pitchers) and that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS...sure.  Trade your ace for a future because he is "depreciating".  Chris Sale is about to win Cy Young at 35.  Snell won at 30, Verlander at 36 and 39, Randy Johnson won 5 after he turned 30, Clemens won 4 after her turned 34. Scherzer 3 after 28, Elite pitchers can do it for a long time.  You BUILD around elite.  Trading blossoming elite for some teams second tier prospects just seems foolish to me.  We were the worst team in history and yet we saw Reylo, Sale, Cease and Rodon all pitching in the playoffs for other teams.  We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

[JoeC]

16 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

(top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's). 

Wasn't it literally like once each decade we had a top-5 (or top-7) payroll?

3rd largest market in the league, and we have a top-5 payroll once every 10 years or so?

18 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

You become terrible by not developing the prospects you get in return. Letting players walk (Rodon) is bad, but good teams turn prospects into good players. We do a terrible job at developing prospects. Therefore, we are a bad team.

[Chimpton]

41 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

2011 Phillies starting five rotation was worth 30 WAR.  

Honestly if we go with the premise that the White Sox will never spend money for their roster (top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's).  Will never pay a top of the market pitching contract (Danks in 2012, Wheeler in 2020, Liam, Lynn $18 mill per year extensions for older pitchers) and that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS...sure.  Trade your ace for a future because he is "depreciating".  Chris Sale is about to win Cy Young at 35.  Snell won at 30, Verlander at 36 and 39, Randy Johnson won 5 after he turned 30, Clemens won 4 after her turned 34. Scherzer 3 after 28, Elite pitchers can do it for a long time.  You BUILD around elite.  Trading blossoming elite for some teams second tier prospects just seems foolish to me.  We were the worst team in history and yet we saw Reylo, Sale, Cease and Rodon all pitching in the playoffs for other teams.  We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

Especially if you are terrible at developing prospects.

[michelangelosmonkey]

50 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Wasn't it literally like once each decade we had a top-5 (or top-7) payroll?

3rd largest market in the league, and we have a top-5 payroll once every 10 years or so?

You become terrible by not developing the prospects you get in return. Letting players walk (Rodon) is bad, but good teams turn prospects into good players. We do a terrible job at developing prospects. Therefore, we are a bad team.

I wrote this many times but Sox payroll goes up and down with attendance...sadly (intelligently?) Sox base of fans that will go to a game irrespective of its talent seems to be about 17,000...in good years that's 30,000 (For reference Dodgers base looks to be about 40,000, Yankees and Cubs maybe 30,000...extra 13,000 per home game at $100 revenue is $100,000,000 in extra payroll) .  JR seems to use attendance for his payroll budget...which honestly seems reasonable.  I think more than any team the Sox were destroyed by COVID.  Attendance went to 0 in 2020 and 60% of what it should have been in 21 and 22...thus the tight budgets   You talk about failure to develop...I think Moncada was really one of those people struck with long COVID.  At 24 he put up a .900 OPS and 5 WAR got COVID the next year and was just never the same.  Maybe the same with Tim Anderson 19-20-21 he was a 4 WAR a year player and then just fell off a cliff.  Eloy hit 45 homers in his first 177 games at 23 by 2020 then just never the same.  Minors were shut down so Vaughn and Crochet lost key development time.  Kopech took the year off.   I don't know...with the White Sox getting historically crushed by the new draft lottery rules...I just think maybe it's the baseball gods.  2019 was the 100th anniversary of the Black Sox, The BG let us build up an amazing team and then just destroyed us in every way possible.  

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, JoeC said:

Wasn't it literally like once each decade we had a top-5 (or top-7) payroll?

3rd largest market in the league, and we have a top-5 payroll once every 10 years or so?

You become terrible by not developing the prospects you get in return. Letting players walk (Rodon) is bad, but good teams turn prospects into good players. We do a terrible job at developing prospects. Therefore, we are a bad team.

2006 and 2022....must have been the year they signed Belle, 97/98...followed by him and Ventura out the door and the White Flag trade lol.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

2011 Phillies starting five rotation was worth 30 WAR.  

Honestly if we go with the premise that the White Sox will never spend money for their roster (top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's).  Will never pay a top of the market pitching contract (Danks in 2012, Wheeler in 2020, Liam, Lynn $18 mill per year extensions for older pitchers) and that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS...sure.  Trade your ace for a future because he is "depreciating".  Chris Sale is about to win Cy Young at 35.  Snell won at 30, Verlander at 36 and 39, Randy Johnson won 5 after he turned 30, Clemens won 4 after her turned 34. Scherzer 3 after 28, Elite pitchers can do it for a long time.  You BUILD around elite.  Trading blossoming elite for some teams second tier prospects just seems foolish to me.  We were the worst team in history and yet we saw Reylo, Sale, Cease and Rodon all pitching in the playoffs for other teams.  We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

You continue to assume we won’t get quality prospects for Crochet.  We should wait and see on that as Crochet is such a premium asset that I think we’ll get at least one very high end prospect and another very good piece (along with some filler).  And that’s an absolute no-brainer deal for us, especially when we’re 20+ games away from even being the second worse team in baseball.

Also, you continue to ignore that keeping Crochet around will cost money and that money be spent on other things.  If you can trade him for two controllable positional talents then you still have the $30M in AAV to spend in free agency to fill other needs.  You essentially get the best of both worlds, but requires you to acknowledge this team ain’t competing in Y25 & Y26.

[michelangelosmonkey]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You continue to assume we won’t get quality prospects for Crochet.  We should wait and see on that as Crochet is such a premium asset that I think we’ll get at least one very high end prospect and another very good piece (along with some filler).  And that’s an absolute no-brainer deal for us, especially when we’re 20+ games away from even being the second worse team in baseball.

Also, you continue to ignore that keeping Crochet around will cost money and that money be spent on other things.  If you can trade him for two controllable positional talents then you still have the $30M in AAV to spend in free agency to fill other needs.  You essentially get the best of both worlds, but requires you to acknowledge this team ain’t competing in Y25 & Y26.

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

[Kyyle23]

23 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

Nobody is ignoring that.  You are operating in a logical scenario, and the White Sox do not exist in that scenario. 
 

in a vacuum yea great let’s keep him and build around him.  In reality it’s just not gonna happen, this ownership does not do that.  You are not arguing with US, you are arguing with our understanding of how THEY operate

[caulfield12]

43 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

They're just not going to give a single player a contract that's equal to their entire 25 man payroll over the span of three years, 2024-2026.

You're acting like they are the Padres all of a sudden.  That's also 4x the size of the Grandal and Benintendi contracts.

Start talking that way as soon as they have new ownership.

That contract would blow up the franchise if he ever had Danks-like career turn, major shoulder/labrum injury, etc.

[Snopek]

5 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't know...with the White Sox getting historically crushed by the new draft lottery rules...I just think maybe it's the baseball gods.  2019 was the 100th anniversary of the Black Sox, The BG let us build up an amazing team and then just destroyed us in every way possible.  

It’s such a bummer to read something like this. The Sox are bad because Jerry Reinsdorf fucking sucks at his job and he deserves every bit of failure that comes with it.

The only unlucky ones in this scenario are the fans. They don’t deserve this.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

Who is ignoring that Crochet is 25 years old and is a legit ace?  We all watched him last year and saw how dominant he can be.  The problem that you refuse to accept is that this org is an absolute trainwreck right now and Crochet only has two years of control left.  You seem to think that we can both make up 45+ games vs. the competition over the next two years and that Jerry will be open to a big extension for Crochet that keeps him around beyond Y26.

And that’s awesome that we have three top 100 positional prospects and three years of control left with Robert.  But guess what, most other teams already have a halfway decent to good lineup plus a wave of prospects coming.  We literally finished 20 games behind the second worse team in baseball because we have no offensive talent on the major league roster outside of Luis.  Three decent prospects is not nearly enough, especially when none of them are elite ones.  And good luck if you think we can fill four or five spots in free agency.  Look at the results from the C tier free agents that we’ve signed in the past and expect a lot more of that if we have to spread our financial wealth to that level.

IMO, we are looking at three years minimum before we have any real shot of being even .500 and that’s if we hit a homerun on a Crochet trade and find a way to recoup some value from a future Robert trade.  As good as Crochet is, holding onto him and using our financial resources to extend will likely slow things down vs. getting two quality positional prospects and having an extra $30M to play with in free agency when the time is right.  It’s really that simple.

[WestEddy]

7 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

2011 Phillies starting five rotation was worth 30 WAR.  

Honestly if we go with the premise that the White Sox will never spend money for their roster (top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's).  Will never pay a top of the market pitching contract (Danks in 2012, Wheeler in 2020, Liam, Lynn $18 mill per year extensions for older pitchers) and that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS...sure.  Trade your ace for a future because he is "depreciating".  Chris Sale is about to win Cy Young at 35.  Snell won at 30, Verlander at 36 and 39, Randy Johnson won 5 after he turned 30, Clemens won 4 after her turned 34. Scherzer 3 after 28, Elite pitchers can do it for a long time.  You BUILD around elite.  Trading blossoming elite for some teams second tier prospects just seems foolish to me.  We were the worst team in history and yet we saw Reylo, Sale, Cease and Rodon all pitching in the playoffs for other teams.  We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

How are we pretending that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS? You're also going with the premise that a pitcher as good as Crochet will never come along, again. We're trying to promote enough good pitching in their first 5 years of control so they can add larger contracts to a cheap base. 

I believe that when the Sox have developed and assembled a competitive base, they will spend the money (as you have shown) to add to it. They've only done so ill-advisedly under Hahn/KW. Maybe Getz will do a better job spreading that money around. 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by WestEddy

[WestEddy]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

Actually, no it isn't. You build around a group of cheap, young talent with 6 years of control. Not one pitcher who is an expensive, young talent with 2 years of control. 

Every rebuild begins with the amassing of young, cheap, controllable talent, not one great pitcher with 2 years of control. The White Sox don't even have a collection of studly prospects. Monty, Ramos and Quero look like they could top out at slightly above average ML talent. Nobody looks like a perennial All-Star. 

[ChiSox59]

10 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He's 3 days younger than Crochet who put up a 4 WAR in his first half a season as a starter.  

If the days are over where you get a top hitting prospect...why are we trading him????  

While I am not advocating for trading for Abreu is the headliner (think he would be a fine 2nd piece), comparing the ages of Crochet and Abreu is worthless.  Control is what matters. 

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like you are ignoring the fact that Crochet is 25 and was one of top 5 pitchers in baseball.  That is the kind of player you should build around.  Teams can win WS with three aces...even if the rest of their team is mediocre.  The 2005 WS team was built that way.  90's Braves, Diamondbacks WS team, Phillies from ten years ago.  70's Orioles.  Mid-80's Mets.  I think this is a real path.    

Let's say they keep Crochet until the trade deadline.  He repeats first half of 2004 season but longer stints.   Medical says he's built like a bull.   Give him 10 year $300 million deal.  Our payroll is basically nothing so even front loading it might make sense. You have Roberts + 3 top 60 position prospects + plenty of payroll to fill in.

Honestly if they trade Crochet and get a 4th top 60 position prospect and a top 100 I will still rout for the team.  I think offensive baseball can be more fun to watch.  But watching Crochet, Smith and Schultz pitch can be a lot of fun too.      

What good does an ace SP do you for you when you're projected to lose 120 games with him? Honest question. 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Actually, no it isn't. You build around a group of cheap, young talent with 6 years of control. Not one pitcher who is an expensive, young talent with 2 years of control. 

Every rebuild begins with the amassing of young, cheap, controllable talent, not one great pitcher with 2 years of control. The White Sox don't even have a collection of studly prospects. Monty, Ramos and Quero look like they could top out at slightly above average ML talent. Nobody looks like a perennial All-Star. 

Fully agree.

[Quin]

I know it's a tangent, but when did we switch from calling Montgomery "Colson" to "Monty"

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Red Sox may be the best fit unless Abreu is the headliner..

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Quin said:

I know it's a tangent, but when did we switch from calling Montgomery "Colson" to "Monty"

I use that shorthand for him. My way of honoring Montgomery "Monty" Clift.