Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[WhiteSox2023]

The Sox do seem to have confidence in drafting big tall hard-throwing lefty starters.  I’m not arguing against the Hagen Smith pick but in a draft in which almost everyone thought they should be taking a bat because the Sox lineup is devoid of talent, they went to their bread and butter instead.  It almost seems like they have no confidence in which bat to take when it’s not a consensus/obvious pick that is available at their spot.  And when you look back at the bats they have taken in the first round (Collins, Madrigal, Vaughn, and Gonzalez versus Burger and Montgomery), we should probably hope they keep taking lefty starters instead.

Edited November 15 by WhiteSox2023

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

8 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d certainly take him over Coby Mayo if those are the top two prospects being offered by Baltimore and Boston.

Why do you think either are being offered?

[PaleAleSox]

4 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Why do you think either are being offered?

What else are we supposed to be doing in a speculation thread about trades? 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

41 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Why do you think either are being offered?

Why not?

[southsider2k5]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5918747/2024/11/14/new-york-mets-garrett-crochet-trade-rumors/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=6062851

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Jesse Rogers is like a young Bruce Levine. Never tells you anything you don’t already know and suggest stupid trade proposals. But I do like the Phillies as a trade partner if Painter is involved.

[PaleAleSox]

23 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Jesse Rogers is like a young Bruce Levine. Never tells you anything you don’t already know and suggest stupid trade proposals. But I do like the Phillies as a trade partner if Painter is involved.

He also wrote an incredibly lame story about the loser Yankees fans who grabbed Mookie. 

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Jesse Rogers is like a young Bruce Levine. Never tells you anything you don’t already know and suggest stupid trade proposals. But I do like the Phillies as a trade partner if Painter is involved.

We really need bats.  I get Painter could be awesome, but we got to find a way to add some high impact offense.

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We really need bats.  I get Painter could be awesome, but we got to find a way to add some high impact offense.

Yeah, it sucks.  Painter would be awesome but our lineup is absolutely putrid with not a ton of help coming (Quero and Montgomery).

But the Alec Bohm suggestion by Rogers is so stupid.  If Getz wants a Boras client with 2 years of control left, we are in trouble.

Edited November 15 by WhiteSox2023

[Timmy U]

Bohm is a nonstarter for the Sox. I also hope they are smart enough to avoid Brett Baty. The guy is not good at 3b and has a pretty good track record of not hitting in the majors. 1 Miguel Vargas is plenty, thanks.

[Timmy U]

2 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Why do you think either are being offered?

Baltimore says “You’ll take Chayce McDermott and Jud Fabian and you’ll like it!”

[Harold's Leg Lift]

24 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I also hope they are smart enough to avoid Brett Baty. The guy is not good at 3b and has a pretty good track record of not hitting in the majors. 

A year ago would you have said the same about Mark Vientos?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

47 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We really need bats.  I get Painter could be awesome, but we got to find a way to add some high impact offense.

I’d be thrilled with a deal including Painter and Caba as the two main pieces.

[Timmy U]

9 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

A year ago would you have said the same about Mark Vientos?

Good question. I always liked Vientos’ swing more than Baty’s. Obviously, Vientos isn’t exactly Matt Chapman at 3rd either. I wouldn’t have been on the “get him at all costs” train, but the sample sizes are vastly different. Baty has been given a lot of at bats and has shown very little. Vientos got sporadic time until this year. He played in about half the number of games by the end of last year that Baty already has under his belt.  I live in NYC and watch a fair number of Mets’ games. I am convicted that Baty is not going to be an impact player. I did not feel that way about Vientos last year. But I will admit I did not see this break out coming.

[2Deep]

1 hour ago, PaleAleSox said:

He also wrote an incredibly lame story about the loser Yankees fans who grabbed Mookie. 

Jesse is a clown

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5918747/2024/11/14/new-york-mets-garrett-crochet-trade-rumors/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=6062851

Williams, Mauricio, Baty and Baez is pretty intriguing, especially if some feel they can do better. 

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Jesse Rogers is like a young Bruce Levine. Never tells you anything you don’t already know and suggest stupid trade proposals. But I do like the Phillies as a trade partner if Painter is involved.

What do you expect from acknowledged Cub fans?

[Eminor3rd]

On 11/14/2024 at 1:47 AM, michelangelosmonkey said:

2011 Phillies starting five rotation was worth 30 WAR.  

Honestly if we go with the premise that the White Sox will never spend money for their roster (top five payroll in 90's, 00's, 10's and top 7 in 20's).  Will never pay a top of the market pitching contract (Danks in 2012, Wheeler in 2020, Liam, Lynn $18 mill per year extensions for older pitchers) and that a young pitcher is worthless after TJS...sure.  Trade your ace for a future because he is "depreciating".  Chris Sale is about to win Cy Young at 35.  Snell won at 30, Verlander at 36 and 39, Randy Johnson won 5 after he turned 30, Clemens won 4 after her turned 34. Scherzer 3 after 28, Elite pitchers can do it for a long time.  You BUILD around elite.  Trading blossoming elite for some teams second tier prospects just seems foolish to me.  We were the worst team in history and yet we saw Reylo, Sale, Cease and Rodon all pitching in the playoffs for other teams.  We just let our talent walk or trade for prospects....that's how you become terrible.   

Ah, yes, Chris Sale is still good, and so were some hall-of-famers. But what about James Shields? Anibal Sanchez? Tim Lincecum? Jordan Zimmermann? Barry Zito? Brandon Webb? Matt Cain? Josh Johnson? Ricky Romero? Ben Sheets? Oliver Perez? Jaret Wright? Rich Harden? Aaron Sele? Dontrelle Willis? Carlos Silva? Mike Hampton? Gil Meche? Jake Westbrook? Jeremy Bonderman? What about Erik Bedard? Ian Snell? John Maine? Brett Anderson? Jair Jurrjens? Julio Teheran? Brandon Beachy? Jorge De la Rosa? Jonathan Sanchez? Jeremy Guthrie? Matt Harvey? Justin Masterson? Whatever happened to Chad Billingsley? Mat Latos? Patrick Corbin? Andrew Cashner? Shelby Miller? Chris Tillman? Kris Medlen? Ian Kennedy? Edinson Volquez? Where did Neftali Feliz end up? Wily Peralta? Alek Menoah? Mike Clevinger? Zac Plesac? German Marquez? Noah Syndergaard? Jeremy Hellickson? Michael Pineda? Remember what a building block Chris Archer was?

Reylo sucked, lol. Rodon was a free agent. So they've traded two dudes in the last 25 years you wish you had back? Would that have been enough? Or, I guess three to be fair: Fernando Tatis Jr. could make a difference for sure... except... WAIT! He was worthless PROSPECT! They traded him to GET the established star pitcher! One of them named above!

You're right though, John Danks $11m/yr extension, the failure to sign Zach Wheeler, and two short-term sub-$20m contracts in the 2020's are pretty good evidence the Sox will pay top dollar for a pitcher. I'm sold! Let's see if they can ADD this offseason and turn this 121-loss ship around!

Edited November 16 by Eminor3rd

[WhiteSox2023]

42 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

What do you expect from acknowledged Cub fans?

It’s like listening to Bruce LeVineLine on the radio.  You can always tell when he has to give White Sox news, he’s just waiting and itching to talk Cubs instead.

[WhiteSox2023]

3 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d be thrilled with a deal including Painter and Caba as the two main pieces.

Can’t argue with you about Painter.  Not so sure about Caba.  He’s still super young and it was only a very small sample size but he struggled moving to Single A and also appears to have Madrigal power.  I don’t think you can have Caba as the top position prospect you get back for Crochet.  The lineup is pretty much devoid of any talent, and definitely of star players.

I think I’d rather see Getz go after more developed position prospects around the age of 21 or so.  He really cannot f*** this up, or else there is no hope for a decent Sox lineup for years.

Edited November 16 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Ah, yes, Chris Sale is still good, and so were some hall-of-famers. But what about James Shields? Anibal Sanchez? Tim Lincecum? Jordan Zimmermann? Barry Zito? Brandon Webb? Matt Cain? Josh Johnson? Ricky Romero? Ben Sheets? Oliver Perez? Jaret Wright? Rich Harden? Aaron Sele? Dontrelle Willis? Carlos Silva? Mike Hampton? Gil Meche? Jake Westbrook? Jeremy Bonderman? What about Erik Bedard? Ian Snell? John Maine? Brett Anderson? Jair Jurrjens? Julio Teheran? Brandon Beachy? Jorge De la Rosa? Jonathan Sanchez? Jeremy Guthrie? Matt Harvey? Justin Masterson? Whatever happened to Chad Billingsley? Mat Latos? Patrick Corbin? Andrew Cashner? Shelby Miller? Chris Tillman? Kris Medlen? Ian Kennedy? Edinson Volquez? Where did Neftali Feliz end up? Wily Peralta? Alek Menoah? Mike Clevinger? Zac Plesac? German Marquez? Noah Syndergaard? Jeremy Hellickson? Michael Pineda? Remember what a building block Chris Archer was?

Reylo sucked, lol. Rodon was a free agent. So they've traded two dudes in the last 25 years you wish you had back? Would that have been enough? Or, I guess three to be fair: Fernando Tatis Jr. could make a difference for sure... except... WAIT! He was worthless PROSPECT! They traded him to GET the established star pitcher! One of them named above!

You're right though, John Danks $11m/yr extension, the failure to sign Zach Wheeler, and two short-term sub-$20m contracts in the 2020's are pretty good evidence the Sox will pay top dollar for a pitcher. I'm sold! Let's see if they can ADD this offseason and turn this 121-loss ship around!

Caulfield,  is that you?

[Quin]

8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Ah, yes, Chris Sale is still good, and so were some hall-of-famers. But what about James Shields? Anibal Sanchez? Tim Lincecum? Jordan Zimmermann? Barry Zito? Brandon Webb? Matt Cain? Josh Johnson? Ricky Romero? Ben Sheets? Oliver Perez? Jaret Wright? Rich Harden? Aaron Sele? Dontrelle Willis? Carlos Silva? Mike Hampton? Gil Meche? Jake Westbrook? Jeremy Bonderman? What about Erik Bedard? Ian Snell? John Maine? Brett Anderson? Jair Jurrjens? Julio Teheran? Brandon Beachy? Jorge De la Rosa? Jonathan Sanchez? Jeremy Guthrie? Matt Harvey? Justin Masterson? Whatever happened to Chad Billingsley? Mat Latos? Patrick Corbin? Andrew Cashner? Shelby Miller? Chris Tillman? Kris Medlen? Ian Kennedy? Edinson Volquez? Where did Neftali Feliz end up? Wily Peralta? Alek Menoah? Mike Clevinger? Zac Plesac? German Marquez? Noah Syndergaard? Jeremy Hellickson? Michael Pineda? Remember what a building block Chris Archer was?

Reylo sucked, lol. Rodon was a free agent. So they've traded two dudes in the last 25 years you wish you had back? Would that have been enough? Or, I guess three to be fair: Fernando Tatis Jr. could make a difference for sure... except... WAIT! He was worthless PROSPECT! They traded him to GET the established star pitcher! One of them named above!

You're right though, John Danks $11m/yr extension, the failure to sign Zach Wheeler, and two short-term sub-$20m contracts in the 2020's are pretty good evidence the Sox will pay top dollar for a pitcher. I'm sold! Let's see if they can ADD this offseason and turn this 121-loss ship around!

I feel like you just beat him down to the tune of the Animaniacs nations of the world song.

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Ah, yes, Chris Sale is still good, and so were some hall-of-famers. But what about James Shields? Anibal Sanchez? Tim Lincecum? Jordan Zimmermann? Barry Zito? Brandon Webb? Matt Cain? Josh Johnson? Ricky Romero? Ben Sheets? Oliver Perez? Jaret Wright? Rich Harden? Aaron Sele? Dontrelle Willis? Carlos Silva? Mike Hampton? Gil Meche? Jake Westbrook? Jeremy Bonderman? What about Erik Bedard? Ian Snell? John Maine? Brett Anderson? Jair Jurrjens? Julio Teheran? Brandon Beachy? Jorge De la Rosa? Jonathan Sanchez? Jeremy Guthrie? Matt Harvey? Justin Masterson? Whatever happened to Chad Billingsley? Mat Latos? Patrick Corbin? Andrew Cashner? Shelby Miller? Chris Tillman? Kris Medlen? Ian Kennedy? Edinson Volquez? Where did Neftali Feliz end up? Wily Peralta? Alek Menoah? Mike Clevinger? Zac Plesac? German Marquez? Noah Syndergaard? Jeremy Hellickson? Michael Pineda? Remember what a building block Chris Archer was?

Reylo sucked, lol. Rodon was a free agent. So they've traded two dudes in the last 25 years you wish you had back? Would that have been enough? Or, I guess three to be fair: Fernando Tatis Jr. could make a difference for sure... except... WAIT! He was worthless PROSPECT! They traded him to GET the established star pitcher! One of them named above!

You're right though, John Danks $11m/yr extension, the failure to sign Zach Wheeler, and two short-term sub-$20m contracts in the 2020's are pretty good evidence the Sox will pay top dollar for a pitcher. I'm sold! Let's see if they can ADD this offseason and turn this 121-loss ship around!

Wow...what a dick response.  I was going to counter with a list of top 50 prospects in the last 25 years that failed in the majors except no one wants to see a list of a thousand names.  I'm not even sure what your list is...6'6" lefty pitchers who at 25 were top 5 pitchers in baseball, had pitched less than 200 MLB innings in their career and had already recovered from TJS?  

I just did a stathead search (wow...what a cool site).   1980 to present, Lefty pitchers over 6'5", who threw over 140 innings, with more than 12 strikeouts per 9 and a FIP below 2.7.  Here's the list:

Garret Crochet. 

That's it.  In 45 years there is one guy like him and we want to trade him for some team's secondary prospects?  (note: If you change the rules to 10 K per 9 and FIP below 3...you add one name, Chris Sale).  Steve Carlton won 27 games in 1972 for worst team in baseball.  It took years to get back to the WS...but ultimately he made 6 playoffs and 2 WS.  I want to be that patient team and not the feeder system for the good teams.  

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Wow...what a dick response.  I was going to counter with a list of top 50 prospects in the last 25 years that failed in the majors except no one wants to see a list of a thousand names.  I'm not even sure what your list is...6'6" lefty pitchers who at 25 were top 5 pitchers in baseball, had pitched less than 200 MLB innings in their career and had already recovered from TJS?  

I just did a stathead search (wow...what a cool site).   1980 to present, Lefty pitchers over 6'5", who threw over 140 innings, with more than 12 strikeouts per 9 and a FIP below 2.7.  Here's the list:

Garret Crochet. 

That's it.  In 45 years there is one guy like him and we want to trade him for some team's secondary prospects?  (note: If you change the rules to 10 K per 9 and FIP below 3...you add one name, Chris Sale).  Steve Carlton won 27 games in 1972 for worst team in baseball.  It took years to get back to the WS...but ultimately he made 6 playoffs and 2 WS.  I want to be that patient team and not the feeder system for the good teams.  

The White Sox are in a worse situation now than they were when they traded Sale. Trading Sale was the right thing to do. Yes he had 2 great years right after he was traded. Say Crochet has 2 great years the next 2 years. How does that make the White Sox contenders? Sale was great again this year, but after those first 2 years in Boston, he spent the next five seasons either ineffective or unavailable while being paid more than any White Sox has ever been paid. The Sox need to trade Crochet while his stock is high. Maybe he is great the next couple of years, but with his history, chances are he will  eventually be paid a lot of money to rehab.

 

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Wow...what a dick response.  I was going to counter with a list of top 50 prospects in the last 25 years that failed in the majors except no one wants to see a list of a thousand names.  I'm not even sure what your list is...6'6" lefty pitchers who at 25 were top 5 pitchers in baseball, had pitched less than 200 MLB innings in their career and had already recovered from TJS?  

I just did a stathead search (wow...what a cool site).   1980 to present, Lefty pitchers over 6'5", who threw over 140 innings, with more than 12 strikeouts per 9 and a FIP below 2.7.  Here's the list:

Garret Crochet. 

That's it.  In 45 years there is one guy like him and we want to trade him for some team's secondary prospects?  (note: If you change the rules to 10 K per 9 and FIP below 3...you add one name, Chris Sale).  Steve Carlton won 27 games in 1972 for worst team in baseball.  It took years to get back to the WS...but ultimately he made 6 playoffs and 2 WS.  I want to be that patient team and not the feeder system for the good teams.  

Lol and if it was 1972 and free agency hadn’t been invented yet and the players were decades away from having earned the leverage, through a series of labor strikes and collective bargaining, to create anything remotely like today’s limited service rights constraints and the resulting market-based competitive labor market, I would say we should keep all our good players, too! I wager we’d all like to have our cake and eat it too, if it’s an option.

It’s not about Garret Crochet being good, it’s about the context in which he can only be good for two more seasons before the cost to retaining him becomes a substantial obstacle to acquiring more talent. And there’s no way to make that service matter in that two year period, so why not transfer that value to a period where it can actually make a difference? 

And your thing about trading for mediocre prospects is a strawman; obviously no one supports trading Crochet for bad prospects. It’s simply a reality of the game that you can’t know the future, but it shouldn’t stop from playing it altogether.