WhiteSox2023 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Actually if Bruce understood analogies, he NEED a Tatis Jr trade here where we come out of it with a superstar in the future after trading our veteran. But C for Effort there Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 No specific Crochet mention, but more talk about the Red Sox trading Wilyer Abreu… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 10 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: No specific Crochet mention, but more talk about the Red Sox trading Wilyer Abreu… What is everyone’s problem with Abreu being in on a potential Crochet trade? Seems like he has a nice left handed bat, good defense, and is still controlled for what… 4.5 years? I suppose the argument is that he is at his ceiling, doesn’t have room to improve, is likely to regress, and isn’t a good target due to already amassing 1.5 years of service time. Correct - or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, hi8is said: What is everyone’s problem with Abreu being in on a potential Crochet trade? Seems like he has a nice left handed bat, good defense, and is still controlled for what… 4.5 years? I suppose the argument is that he is at his ceiling, doesn’t have room to improve, is likely to regress, and isn’t a good target due to already amassing 1.5 years of service time. Correct - or am I missing something? I like him too if he were a second piece in a Crochet deal. 5 years of control and all the other reasons you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 6 hours ago, WestEddy said: Wow, I feel so "owned". LOL. 13 hours ago, greg775 said: Thanks White Sox 2023. I feel so many times nobody credits me for credible posts and I was right there on that one. That's why I didn't buy mlb.com. Amazing how people won't give credit and you did. Thank u! The post you cited should put as the first member of the Soxtalk.com Posters Hall of Fame! Go Bro Rice in the Prep Bowl playoffs if indeed they are in them. Ok Boston, remember you need a follow up hit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 53 minutes ago, hi8is said: What is everyone’s problem with Abreu being in on a potential Crochet trade? Seems like he has a nice left handed bat, good defense, and is still controlled for what… 4.5 years? I suppose the argument is that he is at his ceiling, doesn’t have room to improve, is likely to regress, and isn’t a good target due to already amassing 1.5 years of service time. Correct - or am I missing something? That sounds like a second or third piece in a potential Cy Young level pitcher trade for most GMs, or for Chris Getz, bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 43 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: That sounds like a second or third piece in a potential Cy Young level pitcher trade for most GMs, or for Chris Getz, bingo. Abreu as a second piece > second piece from Sale trade (Kopech) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: And it’s greg! We are talking about a troll Cub fan here I can't believe the fake news about my fandom. I tried to learn about the Cubs a little bit in April and May to see if they could catch my interest. They failed to. As I still can't name you one Cub starting pitcher or anybody except the SS whose name I can't even remember right now. Meanwhile I know all about only one team's personnel, the Sox. As far as the Royals, I went to two games in the Yankee series and watched some of the Yankees the rest of the way so I now know a little about the Royals and the Yankees personnel. You guys can't accept I'm a lifelong Sox fan and living in KC area have been in so many 'fights' defending the Sox vs. the Royals. As far as the Cubs, except as a kid when my grandfather (the only Cub fan in my family) took me to a ton of games I've not followed them at all. I'm even one who as a kid preferred Sox games with my dad over Cub games with grandpa because of the exploding scoreboard and the general joy I got in Comiskey. I didn't mind Wrigley but it wasn't Comiskey. Give greg a break on the fandom issue. As fathom knows I used to freak on here when the Sox lost to KC and/or the Cubs. That's when the Sox were good enough to care whether they won or lost an individual game/series. Now they are so bad it doesn't matter. Give me Pete Ward or give me death. Peace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Abreu as a second piece > second piece from Sale trade (Kopech) At the time of the trade? You are going to argue that the Red Sox kid is more highly rated than a top 20 ranked guy in baseball we got in Kopech? Coming into 2024 he was ranked #23 in the Red Sox system. Kopech was more like #23 overall. Even in the mid season 24 ranks he was #9 for the Red Sox. I can't even take this seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, hi8is said: What is everyone’s problem with Abreu being in on a potential Crochet trade? Seems like he has a nice left handed bat, good defense, and is still controlled for what… 4.5 years? I suppose the argument is that he is at his ceiling, doesn’t have room to improve, is likely to regress, and isn’t a good target due to already amassing 1.5 years of service time. Correct - or am I missing something? 5 years of control rather than 6 from a top prospect. Already turning 26 in June. Obviously he can improve but right now he’s a just under .800 OPS guy. Fairly high strikeout rate. Definitely a nice player but the Sox need to hit on a star, or at least closer to a star than Abreu. Edited November 21 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: 5 years of control rather than 6 from a top prospect. Already turning 26 in June. Obviously he can improve but right now he’s a just under .800 OPS guy. Fairly high strikeout rate. I’m fine with it but he absolutely can’t be the main piece. That would be awful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: At the time of the trade? You are going to argue that the Red Sox kid is more highly rated than a top 20 ranked guy in baseball we got in Kopech? Coming into 2024 he was ranked #23 in the Red Sox system. Kopech was more like #23 overall. I can't even take this seriously. Abreu just put up a 3.1 fWAR season as a rookie. Not many top 10 ranked prospects do that as rookies, let alone a guy ranked #23. So yea, I was serious. I guess you’re arguing that Abreu’s season was a fluke and he won’t continue that level of production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Abreu as a second piece > second piece from Sale trade (Kopech) In hindsight, yes. But at the time of the Sale trade, Kopech was supposed to be the super ace. Also, if Abreu is involved in a Crochet trade, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is the headliner and none of the additional prospects the Sox receive in addition are from the Red Sox top 4. Edited November 21 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 Let’s put this another way… would Sox fans be disappointed if Jordan Westburg was the second piece in a Crochet trade? Similar age, years of club control, and mlb production as Abreu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Abreu just put up a 3.1 fWAR season as a rookie. Not many top 10 ranked prospects do that as rookies, let alone a guy ranked #23. So yea, I was serious. I guess you’re arguing that Abreu’s season was a fluke and he won’t continue that level of production? He's a mid ceiling guy who has already used up some of his cheapest years. We need to do better than that. Way better than that. Kopech was a super star front line pitcher ceiling. Do you not see the difference? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: In hindsight, yes. But at the time of the Sale trade. Kopech was supposed to be the super ace. Also, I’d Abreu is involved in a Crochet trade, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is the headliner and none of the additional prospects are from the Red Sox top 4. Oh I have no doubt we will get a limited ceiling guy that gets fed to us as a 10 year starter who will fix our [insert positon] problem for the next 10 years. How about his year looks remarkably similar to 2021 Andrew Benitendi, and that shouldn't be a top target in a trade like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: In hindsight, yes. But at the time of the Sale trade. Kopech was supposed to be the super ace. Also, I’d Abreu is involved in a Crochet trade, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is the headliner and none of the additional prospects are from the Red Sox top 4. Not even in hindsight. I’m taking young mlb guys like Abreu and Jordan Westburg over Sebastian Walcott (mlb #23 overall prospect right now) as the second piece in a deal like this all day. Round out the package with 2 or 3 high upside prospects. I, too, would be disappointed if Abreu was the headliner and there wasn’t an additional top 30 mlb prospect involved but I really don’t think that will be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: He's a mid ceiling guy who has already used up some of his cheapest years. We need to do better than that. Way better than that. Kopech was a super star front line pitcher ceiling. Do you not see the difference? Superstar pitcher based on what? Yes he could throw 100mph but with poor control and no plus secondary pitch who cares. Those guys are relievers and that’s where he ended up. It’s not surprising his career fWAR is lower than just one season of Abreu’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Superstar pitcher based on what? Yes he could throw 100mph but with poor control and no plus secondary pitch who cares. Those guys are relievers and that’s where he ended up. It’s not surprising his career fWAR is lower than just one season of Abreu’s. So you aren't serious here. OK, thanks. That saves me some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So you aren't serious here. OK, thanks. That saves me some time. Who pegged Kopech as a super star? Seriously. Sure, we HOPED he could eventually emerge as a front of rotation starter but there were plenty of red flags and you’re talking about him like he was Paul Skenes lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 (edited) 15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Who pegged Kopech as a super star? Seriously. Sure, we HOPED he could eventually emerge as a front of rotation starter but there were plenty of red flags and you’re talking about him like he was Paul Skenes lol. He was ranked as high as #11 in the MLB’s top 100 prospects. I agree there were some ref flags but a prospect with a ranking that high is usually expected to be an ace. https://www.milb.com/news/yoan-moncada-michael-kopech-headed-to-futures-game-239471812 EDIT: He was actually ranked #10 in 2018. Edited November 21 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Who pegged Kopech as a super star? Seriously. Sure, we HOPED he could eventually emerge as a front of rotation starter but there were plenty of red flags and you’re talking about him like he was Paul Skenes lol. One of those "I will go to my grave believing this" things about the White Sox on my list is that the White Sox completely demolished Kopech when they put him in the bullpen in 2021. He hadn't pitched since 2018, literally closing in on 3 years, and they put him in a role where he couldn't work on his control and he couldn't' work on his secondary stuff. His lack of control and lack of confidence in throwing his secondary stuff were basically his two biggest downfall issues. In 2018, we saw that he struggled with his control early in AAA, but he found a groove around June once he had thrown enough innings, but they learned nothing from that. Gotta have the relievers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: He was ranked as high as 11 in the MLB’s top 100 prospects. A prospect with a ranking that high is usually expected to be an ace. https://www.milb.com/news/yoan-moncada-michael-kopech-headed-to-futures-game-239471812 I thought we were talking at the time of the trade? Regardless, I don’t consider Noah Schultz a “superstar”, do you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBooneLoganEra Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: He's a mid ceiling guy who has already used up some of his cheapest years. We need to do better than that. Way better than that. Kopech was a super star front line pitcher ceiling. Do you not see the difference? Players with high ceilings haven't worked out with this ballclub, so I understand people being attracted to what looks like a solid player in Abreu who already has some success. However he does need to be a piece and not the piece. Boston has a lot of really nice young players that fit what is needed. If Abreu is put together with Campbell or maybe Mayer, Braden Montgomery, and maybe a 4th lottery ticket that's a deal I like a lot. There's mixing and matching you can do with Boston. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: One of those "I will go to my grave believing this" things about the White Sox on my list is that the White Sox completely demolished Kopech when they put him in the bullpen in 2021. He hadn't pitched since 2018, literally closing in on 3 years, and they put him in a role where he couldn't work on his control and he couldn't' work on his secondary stuff. His lack of control and lack of confidence in throwing his secondary stuff were basically his two biggest downfall issues. In 2018, we saw that he struggled with his control early in AAA, but he found a groove around June once he had thrown enough innings, but they learned nothing from that. Gotta have the relievers. The issues were always there, even in the minor leagues. TJS and then deciding to sit out the Covid year certainly didn’t help his development. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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