Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Players with high ceilings haven't worked out with this ballclub, so I understand people being attracted to what looks like a solid player in Abreu who already has some success. However he does need to be a piece and not the piece. Boston has a lot of really nice young players that fit what is needed. If Abreu is put together with Campbell or maybe Mayer, Braden Montgomery, and maybe a 4th lottery ticket that's a deal I like a lot. There's mixing and matching you can do with Boston. 

Exactly!

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The issues were always there, even in the minor leagues. TJS and then deciding to sit out the Covid year certainly didn’t help his development.

Good thing we don't have the same people in charge of the minor leagues now.

[WhiteSox2023]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I thought we were talking at the time of the trade? Regardless, I don’t consider Noah Schultz a “superstar”, do you?

I actually do think it will be a massive disappointment if Schultz doesn’t somewhat follow in the footsteps of Sale and Crochet.  I think it will be due to injury if he doesn’t succeed.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Good thing we don't have the same people in charge of the minor leagues now.

Yes, it’s always the White Sox fault and never the player’s. I get it but Kopech was his own worst enemy too.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I actually do think it will be a massive disappointment if Schultz doesn’t somewhat follow in the footsteps of Sale and Crochet.  I think it will be due to injury if he doesn’t succeed.

Expect to be disappointed then 🤷‍♂️ 

The likelihood of Schultz turning into a hall of famer or one of the top 5 arms in MLB at age 25 is very low. Just look at those prospect lists of the top 10 pitching prospects over the past decade and there’s a lot of suck in there.

Edited 5 hours ago by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yes, it’s always the White Sox fault and never the player’s. I get it but Kopech was his own worst enemy too.

When they have a clearly ranked #1 system and it collapses like this...yeah. 

Figuring out how to get through to a guy who is his "own worst enemy" is part of that coaching thing.

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

He was ranked as high as #11 in the MLB’s top 100 prospects.  I agree there were some ref flags but a prospect with a ranking that high is usually expected to be an ace.

https://www.milb.com/news/yoan-moncada-michael-kopech-headed-to-futures-game-239471812

EDIT:  He was actually ranked #10 in 2018. 

 

MLB had him at #67 on the day of the trade, and #5 in the Red Sox organization.  That's a long way from unranked overall and #23 in the Red Sox organization.

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Players with high ceilings haven't worked out with this ballclub, so I understand people being attracted to what looks like a solid player in Abreu who already has some success. However he does need to be a piece and not the piece. Boston has a lot of really nice young players that fit what is needed. If Abreu is put together with Campbell or maybe Mayer, Braden Montgomery, and maybe a 4th lottery ticket that's a deal I like a lot. There's mixing and matching you can do with Boston. 

The Sox have failed at development, so we should punt on development and add 2nd or 3rd tier guys sounds a lot like the strategy in the last year and a half honestly.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

MLB had him at #67 on the day of the trade, and #5 in the Red Sox organization.  That's a long way from unranked overall and #23 in the Red Sox organization.

This really isn't quite accurate, or at the least its missing important context. He was #67 on the 2016 offseason list, but then he pitched through the 2016 season and was traded after that season.

On the list published in the 2016-2017 offseason, the offseason when he was traded, he was ranked #16 overall, one slot ahead of Rafael Devers. The list probably came out after the trade, but he threw 0 pitches in-between the trade and that list coming out. He was ranked "number 16" that offseason, and had the list come out before the trade, he would have been #16 on the MLB.com list, unless being traded to the White Sox changed his ranking somehow?

[PaleAleSox]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

When they have a clearly ranked #1 system and it collapses like this...yeah. 

Figuring out how to get through to a guy who is his "own worst enemy" is part of that coaching thing.

That ranking didn’t take into account that none of them are ever on the field to actually play. 

[WhiteSox2023]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This really isn't quite accurate, or at the least its missing important context. He was #67 on the 2016 offseason list, but then he pitched through the 2016 season and was traded after that season.

On the list published in the 2016-2017 offseason, the offseason when he was traded, he was ranked #16 overall, one slot ahead of Rafael Devers. The list probably came out after the trade, but he threw 0 pitches in-between the trade and that list coming out. He was ranked "number 16" that offseason, and had the list come out before the trade, he would have been #16 on the MLB.com list, unless being traded to the White Sox changed his ranking somehow?

He’s at #16 on the 2017 list, but I don’t know the timing/date of this list in 2017.

[Chicago White Sox]

Abreu is a fine player, but five years of control isn’t great when your team is very far away from competing.  Having him and Vargas (also with five years of control if he works out) be two key pieces of a potential rebuilt lineup seems a bit shortsighted IMO.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

He’s at #16 on the 2017 list, but I don’t know the timing/date of this list in 2017.

The 2017 list appears to have been released on December 8, 2016.  The trade to Boston appears to have been announced on December 6, 2016. So, while it is correct that he was not the number 16 prospect on the MLB.com list on the day of the trade, he was #16 two days later.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

27 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

MLB had him at #67 on the day of the trade, and #5 in the Red Sox organization.  That's a long way from unranked overall and #23 in the Red Sox organization.

Now I know you’re not serious. Referencing a guy’s prospect ranking after he put up a 3+ WAR season as a rookie lol

[TheBooneLoganEra]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Abreu is a fine player, but five years of control isn’t great when your team is very far away from competing.  Having him and Vargas (also with five years of control if he works out) be two key pieces of a potential rebuilt lineup seems a bit shortsighted IMO.

Vargas is not a key piece.

[WestEddy]

52 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Who pegged Kopech as a super star? Seriously. Sure, we HOPED he could eventually emerge as a front of rotation starter but there were plenty of red flags and you’re talking about him like he was Paul Skenes lol.

Kopech was a very late first round draft pick, and was a top-40 prospect when the White Sox obtained him. He already had some dirt on him for getting in a fight in a clubhouse. After the Sox got him, he rose to ~top 15 in most lists. But, no, he wasn't some man-child that everyone expected to be a rotation ace. He was a nice 2nd piece who was probably available due to the clubhouse thing. 

[Chicago White Sox]

43 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Players with high ceilings haven't worked out with this ballclub, so I understand people being attracted to what looks like a solid player in Abreu who already has some success. However he does need to be a piece and not the piece. Boston has a lot of really nice young players that fit what is needed. If Abreu is put together with Campbell or maybe Mayer, Braden Montgomery, and maybe a 4th lottery ticket that's a deal I like a lot. There's mixing and matching you can do with Boston. 

In that type of package I would certainly welcome Abreu, but worry he’d be a major part of any potential package.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Vargas is not a key piece.

He probably isn’t and that’s really unfortunate.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Kopech was a very late first round draft pick, and was a top-40 prospect when the White Sox obtained him. He already had some dirt on him for getting in a fight in a clubhouse. After the Sox got him, he rose to ~top 15 in most lists. But, no, he wasn't some man-child that everyone expected to be a rotation ace. He was a nice 2nd piece who was probably available due to the clubhouse thing. 

Kopech had all types of red flags on and off the field. The odds were very much stacked against him of ever becoming an actual superstar.

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Kopech had all types of red flags on and off the field. The odds were very much stacked against him of ever becoming an actual superstar.

He was getting full articles about his "struggles" in national publications while he was still a rookie. I think he was certainly a live arm with ace stuff. He was considered a good "get" as a 2nd piece behind the much touted Yoan. But again, with "the issues". 

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Expect to be disappointed then 🤷‍♂️ 

The likelihood of Schultz turning into a hall of famer or one of the top 5 arms in MLB at age 25 is very low. Just look at those prospect lists of the top 10 pitching prospects over the past decade and there’s a lot of suck in there.

I guess I was overdoing it by including Sale.  But I think he has big tall lanky lefty ace potential, like Crochet.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Kopech was a very late first round draft pick, and was a top-40 prospect when the White Sox obtained him. He already had some dirt on him for getting in a fight in a clubhouse. After the Sox got him, he rose to ~top 15 in most lists. But, no, he wasn't some man-child that everyone expected to be a rotation ace. He was a nice 2nd piece who was probably available due to the clubhouse thing. 

At one point, though, he was briefly considered the top RH pitching prospect in baseball...so let's not act like he was chopped liver, either.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

He was getting full articles about his "struggles" in national publications while he was still a rookie. I think he was certainly a live arm with ace stuff. He was considered a good "get" as a 2nd piece behind the much touted Yoan. But again, with "the issues". 

Another that he was overly concerned with velocity since his legendary Texas HS baseball days (set some crazy mark like 103-105 MPH) and was known to be trying to throw a ball through a wall (wanted even MORE velo back then) rather than being a pitcher (simply a raw thrower who relied on stuff mostly and wasn't refined or mature).

[TheBooneLoganEra]

5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The Sox have failed at development, so we should punt on development and add 2nd or 3rd tier guys sounds a lot like the strategy in the last year and a half honestly.

Often times, those you are referring to as 2nd or 3rd tier players turn into dependable everyday players. Something quite frankly we haven't had in right field in over a decade. And as stated often times high ceiling players don't reach that ceiling. It may be coaching, circumstances, injuries, lack of development or any number of reasons.

I'm not suggesting they don't aspire to acquire those high ceiling guys. However someone like Abreu who has shown mlb success, built a nice reputation amongst Boston fans, wouldn't be someone to be disappointed about in my opinion. Again, so long as he's not the centerpiece....I don't think he will be. 

[southsider2k5]

5 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Now I know you’re not serious. Referencing a guy’s prospect ranking after he put up a 3+ WAR season as a rookie lol

That has quite literally been the discussion,  so please try to keep up.  So while you pine for peak Andrew Benintendi,  I am going to have for a ceiling.