Potential Crochet Trade discussion Thread

[tray]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How exactly do you plan on building an offense when you’d trade our only high end positional prospect for more SP and don’t want to use Crochet to add positional prospects?

To be frank, I do not have many suggestions that most would agree with. Personally,  I would like them to keep Crochet and our developing starting pitchers.  Focus on pitching and defense with the 2025 roster. Beyond that, start by getting a DH that can hit 30+ HR. Try to add 2 more FA position players that fill holes in the lineup. I know, not going to happen...

[SoCalChiSox]

4 hours ago, tray said:

 

My own opinion heavily weighs in favor of doing that. I am among those who think Garret has Chris Sale potential and if so, he might eventually become any team's Ace, but certainly the WSox.

Oh "T100" prospects... Prospects do nothing for me with rare exceptions and as an example, none of those exceptional talents are in our system. For example, Colson Montgomery, our top prospect...no one seems to know if he can be a MLB SS or if he will even hit  for average at the ML level.  I think there are close to even odds that Colson either becomes a star or becomes a bust. Hypothetically if any team wanted to trade for Colson and offered any legit starting pitcher, I would take that deal so fast...

If he isn't a star, we're dead.

We're probably dead regardless.

[Balta1701]

33 minutes ago, tray said:

To be frank, I do not have many suggestions that most would agree with. Personally,  I would like them to keep Crochet and our developing starting pitchers.  Focus on pitching and defense with the 2025 roster. Beyond that, start by getting a DH that can hit 30+ HR. Try to add 2 more FA position players that fill holes in the lineup. I know, not going to happen...

The famously successful White Sox format of paying premium prices for DHs. 

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, striker said:

I would do this in a heartbeat. You plug 3 holes.

Sox were ca: -2.4, 1b: -1, rf: -2.4. That trade is a 10 war improvement.

People are nuts wanting prospects. Why get some dude you hope is a major league regular when you can just get major league regulars.

10 WAR improvement other than losing the production Crochet would have provided, ignoring any other options we currently have at those positions, and assuming those three guys repeat those levels of production.  You’re likely getting two 2 win players and a backup caliber catcher for what should be a 5 win pitcher.  From a trade perspective it’s likely an even swap of fWAR next year, but from an improvement I’m not even sure we’d be better when it’s all said and done.

And no, people are not nuts to want elite positional prospects over average major league players with 4 to 5 years of control.  For example, Steamer 600 projects Campbell at 3.0 fWAR next year as a rookie vs. 2.2 fWAR for Abreu.  And you get basically 7 years of control with Campbell.  Obviously there is no guarantee with any given prospect, but the odds suggest a premium prospect like Campbel will likely outproduce the average starter.

Ultimately, we should be trying to amasses talent that will hit around the same time to optimize our next window.  Using our best trade chip to get a bunch of average players in hope of putting a 60 win team on the field next year is a poor long-term strategy.  We simply don’t have enough talent in our org right now to accelerate things.

[WhiteSox2023]

6 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jim Bowden proposal in The Athletic:

White Sox Give:

• LHP Garrett Crochet

White Sox Get:

• RF Wilyer Abreu (25 years old | 5 years of control | 114 wRC+ | 3.1 fWAR)
• 1B Triston Casas (24 years old | 4 years of control | 119 wRC+ | 0.6 fWAR)
• CA Connor Wong (28 years old | 4 years of control | 110 wRC+ | 1.1 fWAR)

Unfortunately I’d have to say no to that.

At least Bowden put some thought into a trade offer including players that would be expendable to the Red Sox that they could replace internally while getting younger — Anthony replaces Abreu, Devers moves to 1B to replace Casas, and Teel replaces Wong.

But it doesn’t help the White Sox all that much to not get back players with a full 6 years of control…

Abreu — 5 years of control remaining

Casas — 4 years of control remaining

Wong — 4 years of control remaining

Edited December 5 by WhiteSox2023

[tray]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

The famously successful White Sox format of paying premium prices for DHs. 

Well, generally there are better, cheaper options to obtain a power hitter DH rather than a stud position player.  It isn't an ultimate solution to the power outage in the line-up, but at least it could be a first step. Who would DH if the Sox go into the 2025 season with the current roster?  I'm asking.

[Snopek]

5 hours ago, tray said:

Who would DH if the Sox go into the 2025 season with the current roster?  I'm asking.

I would guess some sort of rotation that includes Vargas, Vaughn and Benintendi.

[southsider2k5]

11 hours ago, striker said:

I would do this in a heartbeat. You plug 3 holes.

Sox were ca: -2.4, 1b: -1, rf: -2.4. That trade is a 10 war improvement.

People are nuts wanting prospects. Why get some dude you hope is a major league regular when you can just get major league regulars.

The goal isn't to get back to 70 wins.  You need superstars to win in this game. 

[southsider2k5]

56 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I would guess some sort of rotation that includes Vargas, Vaughn and Benintendi.

When a team is coming off of a 121 win season, the last thing they need to care about is who is DHing in 2025.  Get your skill positions figured out up the middle, and then work backwards.  DH is literally the last thing.

[Snopek]

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

When a team is coming off of a 121 win season, the last thing they need to care about is who is DHing in 2025.  Get your skill positions figured out up the middle, and then work backwards.  DH is literally the last thing.

Right. It will figure itself out one way or another. Most likely in a “whose terrible glove do we not want out in the field today” sort of way.

[striker]

10 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

10 WAR improvement other than losing the production Crochet would have provided, ignoring any other options we currently have at those positions, and assuming those three guys repeat those levels of production.  You’re likely getting two 2 win players and a backup caliber catcher for what should be a 5 win pitcher.  From a trade perspective it’s likely an even swap of fWAR next year, but from an improvement I’m not even sure we’d be better when it’s all said and done.

And no, people are not nuts to want elite positional prospects over average major league players with 4 to 5 years of control.  For example, Steamer 600 projects Campbell at 3.0 fWAR next year as a rookie vs. 2.2 fWAR for Abreu.  And you get basically 7 years of control with Campbell.  Obviously there is no guarantee with any given prospect, but the odds suggest a premium prospect like Campbel will likely outproduce the average starter.

Ultimately, we should be trying to amasses talent that will hit around the same time to optimize our next window.  Using our best trade chip to get a bunch of average players in hope of putting a 60 win team on the field next year is a poor long-term strategy.  We simply don’t have enough talent in our org right now to accelerate things.

So you get Campbell at 3 war and another piece. That other piece doesn’t hit (see history). You go from 1 war at 2b to 3war for a 5 war pitcher. My approach improves the team faster and decreases your risk because you aren’t hedging your bet on unproven commodities.

When you have 10 holes in the boat you focus first on plugging holes, THEN you make the boat look nice. 

I also don’t think anyone is going to give us a top 50 prospect for Crochet and if they do, the second piece is going to he an even riskier bet.

[T R U]

15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Jim Bowden proposal in The Athletic:

White Sox Give:

• LHP Garrett Crochet

White Sox Get:

• RF Wilyer Abreu (25 years old | 5 years of control | 114 wRC+ | 3.1 fWAR)
• 1B Triston Casas (24 years old | 4 years of control | 119 wRC+ | 0.6 fWAR)
• CA Connor Wong (28 years old | 4 years of control | 110 wRC+ | 1.1 fWAR)

Unfortunately I’d have to say no to that.

I would be OK with this if you swap out Wong for a prospect. I am fine with Quero and Lee figuring it out at C. 

[striker]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The goal isn't to get back to 70 wins.  You need superstars to win in this game. 

No one is trading us a superstar 

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, striker said:

No one is trading us a superstar 

Then we aren't going to be good until next decade.

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The goal isn't to get back to 70 wins.

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, tray said:

Well, generally there are better, cheaper options to obtain a power hitter DH rather than a stud position player.  It isn't an ultimate solution to the power outage in the line-up, but at least it could be a first step. Who would DH if the Sox go into the 2025 season with the current roster?  I'm asking.

Ideally, the way this goes is that you develop several players who are interchangeable, and you use the DH spot to give people rest or to limit the exposure of people who are bad at defense. 

I guess Ideally the best answer would have been Ohtani but our owner laughed at the concept of signing him.

Had we not failed at developing guys, Eloy, Vaughn, and Sheets would have been an ideal set of guys to rotate through DH because none of them are great at defense and you could play matchups with them. 

This year with the White Sox, depends on who is ready to come up at the end of Spring Training. If Ramos is ready to come up, then that would move Vargas there. If Elko can come up, it moves Vaughn there sometimes. If Fletcher can be an effective corner OF, that would move Benintendi there. Is that important? Not really, they all work.

[WhiteSox2023]

49 minutes ago, striker said:

No one is trading us a superstar 

Rick Hahn didn’t intend to trade a superstar for the corpse of James Shields either, but it can happen.  Unfortunately, it’s usually from better GM’s than whom the Sox have in place that are making these deals.

Edited December 5 by WhiteSox2023

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

10 WAR improvement other than losing the production Crochet would have provided, ignoring any other options we currently have at those positions, and assuming those three guys repeat those levels of production.  You’re likely getting two 2 win players and a backup caliber catcher for what should be a 5 win pitcher.  From a trade perspective it’s likely an even swap of fWAR next year, but from an improvement I’m not even sure we’d be better when it’s all said and done.

And no, people are not nuts to want elite positional prospects over average major league players with 4 to 5 years of control.  For example, Steamer 600 projects Campbell at 3.0 fWAR next year as a rookie vs. 2.2 fWAR for Abreu.  And you get basically 7 years of control with Campbell.  Obviously there is no guarantee with any given prospect, but the odds suggest a premium prospect like Campbel will likely outproduce the average starter.

Ultimately, we should be trying to amasses talent that will hit around the same time to optimize our next window.  Using our best trade chip to get a bunch of average players in hope of putting a 60 win team on the field next year is a poor long-term strategy.  We simply don’t have enough talent in our org right now to accelerate things.

I don't think there's any one way of thinking ,when u start from rock bottom, to get players for a window. We don't know when there will be a window.What kind of window ? Don't you need enough talent to get to 75 wins before you get to 85 or 95 ?

Right now the Sox are 34 wins away from even 75 wins. They are not going to be able to amass enough prospect talent or even current young MLB talent to have any shot at the playoffs any time soon at the rate JR is clutching the purse strings.

This going to be a patch work quilt. Get enough talent to keep the fans going to see them play so JR spends a little more while you pray that Getz can do what no other GM has done for a long time ands develop prospects in our system while signing some successful international players and drafting well and slowly build up the depth in the system .

Best case scenario is the pitching becomes very good , a couple of prospects work out. Scout, develop, trade,draft, sign rinse and repeat and see if u can become Tampa Bay.

Tampa Bay didn't even start this barren and we got people talking about a window as if you know when it's going to be and who will be a part of it. Window ?? I feel like Jim Mora ranting "don't talk to me about playoffs" when his team sucked so bad in a game he had more concern just about winning the next game than the playoffs.

This is where we are .We're barely crawling .We haven't even got close to baby steps yet. And that baby will stumble and fall many times.

Just amass as much talent as possible at SS . If they are fast and powerful and athletic they can be moved. The next window is climbing out of this pit with the owner of the pit still here laughing at us for still caring about it to have opinions about the most direct path to just being average instead of putrid.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

If he isn't a star, we're dead.

We're probably dead regardless.

Funny how everyone wants JR to die while he's like the black plague spreading disease and death to his franchise and it's fanbase. There's a reason why the Sox wear black.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, striker said:

So you get Campbell at 3 war and another piece. That other piece doesn’t hit (see history). You go from 1 war at 2b to 3war for a 5 war pitcher. My approach improves the team faster and decreases your risk because you aren’t hedging your bet on unproven commodities.

When you have 10 holes in the boat you focus first on plugging holes, THEN you make the boat look nice. 

I also don’t think anyone is going to give us a top 50 prospect for Crochet and if they do, the second piece is going to he an even riskier bet.

That’s Campbell’s projection for Y25 as a rookie.  Guys who perform that good as rookies typically build upon their success as they physically mature and gain experience.

[Chicago White Sox]

22 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think there's any one way of thinking ,when u start from rock bottom, to get players for a window. We don't know when there will be a window.What kind of window ? Don't you need enough talent to get to 75 wins before you get to 85 or 95 ?

Right now the Sox are 34 wins away from even 75 wins. They are not going to be able to amass enough prospect talent or even current young MLB talent to have any shot at the playoffs any time soon at the rate JR is clutching the purse strings.

This going to be a patch work quilt. Get enough talent to keep the fans going to see them play so JR spends a little more while you pray that Getz can do what no other GM has done for a long time ands develop prospects in our system while signing some successful international players and drafting well and slowly build up the depth in the system .

Best case scenario is the pitching becomes very good , a couple of prospects work out. Scout, develop, trade,draft, sign rinse and repeat and see if u can become Tampa Bay.

Tampa Bay didn't even start this barren and we got people talking about a window as if you know when it's going to be and who will be a part of it. Window ?? I feel like Jim Mora ranting "don't talk to me about playoffs" when his team sucked so bad in a game he had more concern just about winning the next game than the playoffs.

This is where we are .We're barely crawling .We haven't even got close to baby steps yet. And that baby will stumble and fall many times.

Just amass as much talent as possible at SS . If they are fast and powerful and athletic they can be moved. The next window is climbing out of this pit with the owner of the pit still here laughing at us for still caring about it to have opinions about the most direct path to just being average instead of putrid.

The first step coming off a historically bad season is not to rush things.  We are starting from a massive disadvantage vs. every other team in baseball outside of maybe the A’s & Rockies.  This is going to take a ton of time to fix and we need to acknowledge that in our near-term strategy.  As such, the best thing we can do right now is slow things down, avoid calling up our key prospects before we know they are ready, and give playing time to all the fringe talent we already have on the roster.  If we can turn any of these fringe types into assets, we can accelerate the timing of the rebuild.

Additionally, there is little value is burning control of high end prospect on 100 loss clubs.  Obviously it’s uncontrollable to some extent, but we should do our best to minimize those impacts.  And we should certainly avoid trading our best assets to acquire a bunch of 2 win players that won’t materially change our competitiveness before they hit free agency.  I think starting in Y26 we can start making some moves that are focused on near-term winning, preferably using financial resources, but without question we are least a year away from being in that position.

[WhiteSox2023]

17 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Funny how everyone wants JR to die while he's like the black plague spreading disease and death to his franchise and its fanbase. There's a reason why the Sox wear black.

He makes the payroll, he hires the GM, he also hires the manager sometimes.  He is the reason a new GM and manager can’t start fresh with their own staff.

If it isn’t mostly on JR, who is to blame?

[fathom]

Fegan out there on podcast floating idea of 3 team trade.  Seems he was referencing Braves involvement.

 

Edited December 5 by fathom

[Chicago White Sox]

 

[fathom]

Hoerner had pretty major surgery, and the Mariners are looking for offense.  I would be surprised if this happened.