WhiteSox2023 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said: What ace? I meant Aidan Miller. Sorry, corrected my post. I was mixing up Miller with Painter. Edited December 8 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 12 hours ago, Balta1701 said: One caveat. If you could find a player in his mid 20s who probably has a hall of fame career still coming and who might be effective in 2040, taking advantage of your super low payroll to sign this guy early would be a smart move even if your team is a year or two away. The Phillies and Padres fully demonstrated this with Harper and Machado, and now those contracts look fine or even like bargains. I wonder if there’s a player right now who would fit this description. Those were such a good time to spend big money. Teams were nervous over big deals and Sox had space and it was time they could have legit won a deal or two. Im hoping we see that window come up again soon but it still takes a new owner too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said: Those were such a good time to spend big money. Teams were nervous over big deals and Sox had space and it was time they could have legit won a deal or two. Im hoping we see that window come up again soon but it still takes a new owner too. Instead, it was spread out over the years to Keuchel, Grandal, Hendriks, and Benintendi. Wise decisions over just signing Machado or Harper. Quantity over quality is not always better, which is something Jerry has never quite figured out. Four players that everyone wanted to cut up to years before their contracts were up over two players that are still earning their pay, Jerry sure knows how to make money but he is pretty damn clueless at baseball. Edited December 8 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 This market is wild. Well see what actually materializes. But whatever signs we have access to indicate a market sentiment where a) mid level pitchers are very expensive and no great top tier pitchers to sign b) there aren’t a lot of great pitchers on the trade market and yet Top position prospects are clearly valued way higher than whatever problems arise this year from having sub par pitching - even for contending teams. Teams would offer two top 15 pitching prospects before a single top 50 hitting prospect. Oh but how about these underperforming former top prospects? Would that interest you? Whatever happens next, the white Sox have to start developing and drafting and signing hitting because there is no trade market for it and no $$ avenue for this team to sign any. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 34 minutes ago, bmags said: This market is wild. Well see what actually materializes. But whatever signs we have access to indicate a market sentiment where a) mid level pitchers are very expensive and no great top tier pitchers to sign b) there aren’t a lot of great pitchers on the trade market and yet Top position prospects are clearly valued way higher than whatever problems arise this year from having sub par pitching - even for contending teams. Teams would offer two top 15 pitching prospects before a single top 50 hitting prospect. Oh but how about these underperforming former top prospects? Would that interest you? Whatever happens next, the white Sox have to start developing and drafting and signing hitting because there is no trade market for it and no $$ avenue for this team to sign any. I think the opposite could be true as well, teams see that pitching is very expensive, especially this offseason, so maybe they’re more willing to include positional prospects over pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 Getz is probably in a rental car driving down to Dallas right now. Wheeling and dealing taking phone calls from the carpool lane while being careful because JR didn't pay for comprehensive insurance. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 Starting to scout other teams’ message boards to get a sense of how their fanbases value Crochet. The Orioles fans at the Hangout are a hard pass on Crochet if it costs even one of Basallo or Mayo. They want and are expecting a SP via free agency due to their new owner. It’s interesting to see how quickly fan expectations change as there is almost a sense of entitlement over there. Regardless, like their fans, Elias cares more about prospect clutching than winning championships and I think we can take them off the list. Over at Sons of Sam Horn, there is certainly a desire amongst some Red Sox fans to add Crochet. At first, there was a large contingent of posters who felt Abreu plus filler could get the job done, but it appears there has been some acceptance that it will cost substantially more. Anthony & Campbell definitely seem like untouchables to me, but there have been a few proposals centered around Mayer and lots of mock trades with Montgomery. Regardless, I think there is a real desire within the org itself to start pushing some chips in. Meanwhile, the general consensus at PhilliesPhans is that Crochet is really good and so is the Phillies rotation, so why pay a steep price for Garrett when there are other areas of need. To their credit, they realize Bohm doesn’t make any sense for us and for the most feel it’s going to take legit high end prospects to get him. Of particular note, they feel that Dombrowski is definitely interested in adding him despite that full rotation. Also, someone proposed a trade lead by Abel and said he couldn’t understand why the Sox wouldn’t take that 🤣🤣 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Starting to scout other teams’ message boards to get a sense of how their fanbases value Crochet. The Orioles fans at the Hangout are a hard pass on Crochet if it costs even one of Basallo or Mayo. They want and are expecting a SP via free agency due to their new owner. It’s interesting to see how quickly fan expectations change as there is almost a sense of entitlement over there. Regardless, like their fans, Elias cares more about prospect clutching than winning championships and I think we can take them off the list. Over at Sons of Sam Horn, there is certainly a desire amongst some Red Sox fans to add Crochet. At first, there was a large contingent of posters who felt Abreu plus filler could get the job done, but it appears there has been some acceptance that it will cost substantially more. Anthony & Campbell definitely seem like untouchables to me, but there have been a few proposals centered around Mayer and lots of mock trades with Montgomery. Regardless, I think there is a real desire within the org itself to start pushing some chips in. Meanwhile, the general consensus at PhilliesPhans is that Crochet is really good and so is the Phillies rotation, so why pay a steep price for Garrett when there are other areas of need. To their credit, they realize Bohm doesn’t make any sense for us and for the most feel it’s going to take legit high end prospects to get him. Of particular note, they feel that Dombrowski is definitely interested in adding him despite that full rotation. Also, someone proposed a trade lead by Abel and said he couldn’t understand why the Sox wouldn’t take that 🤣🤣 You know we can call it prospect clutching but look how quickly they need to get a next wave. It depletes quick, padres are one of the few who have shown fast waves coming behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 4 minutes ago, bmags said: You know we can call it prospect clutching but look how quickly they need to get a next wave. It depletes quick, padres are one of the few who have shown fast waves coming behind. I don’t disagree and positional prospects are valued like they are for a reason. That being said, windows also fade fast and I think it’s crazy to not take a shot when you 95% of the pieces in place. If the Orioles never make a World Series while having Rutschman that’s a major black mark for Elias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I don’t disagree and positional prospects are valued like they are for a reason. That being said, windows also fade fast and I think it’s crazy to not take a shot when you 95% of the pieces in place. If the Orioles never make a World Series while having Rutschman that’s a major black mark for Elias. Henderson’s even more critical at this point…with Holliday a distant third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 Per Bob: Quote No player will command as much on the trade market than Crochet, the ace of the Chicago White Sox. They are asking for team’s top prospects, and no one blames them. He’s young (25), he’s cheap (projected to earn $2.9 million by MLB Trade Rumors) and he’s a stud, striking out 209 batters in 146 innings last season. The White Sox have had serious talks with the Philadelphia Phillies, but rejected the concept of Alec Bohm and outfielder Justin Crawford. The San Diego Padres would love him, and have dealt plenty of prospects in the past, but told the White Sox they are hanging onto catcher Ethan Salas and shortstop Leodalis De Vries. The Red Sox lurk. In the end, the White Sox will trade him to the team that gives them the most prized prospects, and hope they never again experience anything like their embarrassing 41-121 season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 Bartolo’s Colonoscopy (aka Orlando) claiming the Sox are asking for Mayo & Bradfield from the Orioles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think there were some clubhouse issues with him too. As with Kopech, Lynn, Moncada, Eloy, Robert, Hendricks- if there’s no player on your team where you don’t say “there were clubhouse issues with him” then the problem is likely your clubhouse. That should be acknowledged even for guys like Madrigal. The portions of the attitude we saw and didn’t like certainly could be things LaRussa encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: As with Kopech, Lynn, Moncada, Eloy, Robert, Hendricks- if there’s no player on your team where you don’t say “there were clubhouse issues with him” then the problem is likely your clubhouse. That should be acknowledged even for guys like Madrigal. The portions of the attitude we saw and didn’t like certainly could be things LaRussa encouraged. What I heard is that Madrigal was more annoying than being a bad dude, lazy, or unwilling to work with the coaching staff. Like the other players just didn’t like him and not because he was a dick. Why were there clubhouse issues with Liam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: and lots of mock trades with Montgomery. I am officially old enough to not want this to happen because at some point I would confuse one for the other while reading a post. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: What I heard is that Madrigal was more annoying than being a bad dude, lazy, or unwilling to work with the coaching staff. Like the other players just didn’t like him and not because he was a dick. Why were there clubhouse issues with Liam? Because the rest of the clubhouse hated Liam. Some of that may have been politics, some attitude, we aren’t sure. Kinda the same as Madrigal. That was in one of the tell all articles this year. Which makes me think that this is also part of the staff and player choice problems too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Bartolo’s Colonoscopy (aka Orlando) claiming the Sox are asking for Mayo & Bradfield from the Orioles. I would hate this trade almost as much as I hated the Vargas trade. Bradfield is a 4th outfielder/pinchrunner. He cannot hit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 10 hours ago, Chisoxfn said: Those were such a good time to spend big money. Teams were nervous over big deals and Sox had space and it was time they could have legit won a deal or two. Im hoping we see that window come up again soon but it still takes a new owner too. 2018 was the peak of the almost collusion under the last CBA that was definitely suppressing player salaries. That probably has reset itself now that more teams are actually trying. One other interesting point about Sotos money, and I think it’s one the Dodgers realize. Because of Covid, from 2019-2023 MLB’s revenues are nearly flat, 2023 was the first year in 5 where they hit a new revenue high. If you think Harper and Machado’s deals look good, they look good entirely due to suppressed salaries at signing, not due to revenue growth because there wasn’t any. While another pandemic virus is possible right now, it seems reasonable to guess continued revenue growth has a good shot of happening. If revenues are going up at 5% a year again, then a $300 million payroll right now for the Dodgers or Mets will be close to a $600 million payroll by the time a 13 year deal ends for Soto. If the White Sox can support a $175 million payroll right now, then anything less than a $350 million payroll at the end of a Soto deal is profit-taking by the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 36 minutes ago, Timmy U said: I would hate this trade almost as much as I hated the Vargas trade. Bradfield is a 4th outfielder/pinchrunner. He cannot hit. I am a big Mayo fan, but I’m not a big Bradfield. Right or wrong, a positional player who provides no impact with the bat doesn’t work for me regardless of their speed and defense. Honestly, I just don’t love the Orioles as a trade partner anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 40 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Because the rest of the clubhouse hated Liam. Some of that may have been politics, some attitude, we aren’t sure. Kinda the same as Madrigal. That was in one of the tell all articles this year. Which makes me think that this is also part of the staff and player choice problems too. I think the problem with Liam is he is very vocal politically and that’s going to rub those with opposing views the wrong way (which baseball is full of). Other than that though, he seems like a great clubhouse guy. I could be wrong, but I think Madrigal is very religious and he may have inserted a lot of that stuff into the clubhouse. I do know the Mr. 3000 shirt also rubbed some of the veterans the wrong way. Regardless, Nick is simply not worth bringing back for any reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 46 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think the problem with Liam is he is very vocal politically and that’s going to rub those with opposing views the wrong way (which baseball is full of). Other than that though, he seems like a great clubhouse guy. I could be wrong, but I think Madrigal is very religious and he may have inserted a lot of that stuff into the clubhouse. I do know the Mr. 3000 shirt also rubbed some of the veterans the wrong way. Regardless, Nick is simply not worth bringing back for any reason. In either case, I think the fact that these and other “bad attitude cases” all suddenly happened under LaRussa is no coincidence. As much as I think you’re right about Madrigal, I can’t ignore the pattern. When everyone has a bad attitude, and every player who leaves either rips the team or gets criticized by their leakers, that’s more than just a problem with any single player and so we should keep that in mind when ripping any players attitude. Edit: under LaRussa, and for minor leaguers coming up, under Getz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: In either case, I think the fact that these and other “bad attitude cases” all suddenly happened under LaRussa is no coincidence. As much as I think you’re right about Madrigal, I can’t ignore the pattern. When everyone has a bad attitude, and every player who leaves either rips the team or gets criticized by their leakers, that’s more than just a problem with any single player and so we should keep that in mind when ripping any players attitude. I 100% think La Russa brought out the worst tendencies of certain players and we never recovered from it. I also think we’ve had a clubhouse lacking of the right leaders to help police things to help offset a weak manager. I am not a Getz fan by any means, but this is area where he can help I think due to his past experience as a player unlike Hahn or event KW to a certain extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I 100% think La Russa brought out the worst tendencies of certain players and we never recovered from it. I also think we’ve had a clubhouse lacking of the right leaders to help police things to help offset a weak manager. I am not a Getz fan by any means, but this is area where he can help I think due to his past experience as a player unlike Hahn or event KW to a certain extent. I’m not prejudging Venable, but in terms of Getz, so many of the attitude problem, uncoachable players that we are excited to dump now are guys who were in the White Sox’s system that I don’t buy the Getz helping with attitudes part. He was clearly part of this attitude mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 8 Author Share Posted December 8 11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I’m not prejudging Venable, but in terms of Getz, so many of the attitude problem, uncoachable players that we are excited to dump now are guys who were in the White Sox’s system that I don’t buy the Getz helping with attitudes part. He was clearly part of this attitude mess. Can’t blame Getz for guys like Moncada & Eloy being lazy after Hahn gave them massive extensions. And the more cancerous players in the clubhouse (Lynn, Kelly, & Grandal apparently) were external additions. Tim Anderson? Dude simply went crazy, which again, not a Getz problem. I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted December 8 Share Posted December 8 22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I’m not prejudging Venable, but in terms of Getz, so many of the attitude problem, uncoachable players that we are excited to dump now are guys who were in the White Sox’s system that I don’t buy the Getz helping with attitudes part. He was clearly part of this attitude mess. What players that we assume had attitude problems would have to do with Getz? I don't think there are any. Colas, I guess? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts