Rule 5 Protection tomorrow

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I see one poster who said the White Sox screwed up Montgomery. He got called out correctly for that being an exaggeration, and I have nothing else to add.

It's possible they did screw him up, moving him to AAA last year was aggressive and I wouldn't have done it. But, I don't know that screwed him up, at least not yet. It's possible they didn't have him on a proper training program and that led to back issues last year. It's possible he was just hurt last year, and that proper training will bring him back to where he was prior to last year. It's possible that he has a degenerative back condition and we never hear from him again.

A #22 pick in the top 20 prospects is ok, it's a decent positive, but with a tiny bit of context it isn't amazing or earth shattering. There's a long way to go, and health is always a factor. As soon as he said the White Sox screwed him up, an exaggeration in one direction, you Getzlyfans chimed in with how vastly far ahead of #22 picks he is, which is false since most of them get to the big leagues, and how few #22 picks put up 15 WAR, which is giving him credit for 15 WAR more than he has put up. 

One poster overshot the worries from last year by saying they screwed him up, and you guys bent over Getzwards to say how no #22 pick has ever done stuff like this. Maybe you should take your own advice there.

I would expect Monty to get a few at-bats in the bigs, at least, so we can then speak of him in the hallowed tones of success that "making the bigs" carries. 

I would agree with you that he was rushed to AAA. They probably wanted him to play through his back issues so that he didn't fall behind, and wind up being an A baller they needed to put on the 40-man. His final 6 weeks in AAA is a positive. 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I would expect Monty to get a few at-bats in the bigs, at least, so we can then speak of him in the hallowed tones of success that "making the bigs" carries. 

I would agree with you that he was rushed to AAA. They probably wanted him to play through his back issues so that he didn't fall behind, and wind up being an A baller they needed to put on the 40-man. His final 6 weeks in AAA is a positive. 

yes, I would agree I think he will get there unless his health is a much bigger issue than I think. But that's also normal. Most #22 picks get that far, and it was an exaggeration when a poster said he's vastly ahead of most #22 picks for precisely that reason. The next step up, a big league regular, is more rarefied air. But real simple, you don't get to credit them for successfully developing a 15 WAR player until he's at least a 1 WAR player, regardless of whether Chris Getz was involved. 

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

yes, I would agree I think he will get there unless his health is a much bigger issue than I think. But that's also normal. Most #22 picks get that far, and it was an exaggeration when a poster said he's vastly ahead of most #22 picks for precisely that reason. The next step up, a big league regular, is more rarefied air. But real simple, you don't get to credit them for successfully developing a 15 WAR player until he's at least a 1 WAR player, regardless of whether Chris Getz was involved. 

Well, in that case, all team systems are tied for 30th best minor league systems in the game. 

Again, you're making a tortured argument to not give any credit for taking a HS player at #22, developing that player into one of the top 20 prospects in the game and seeing that player have success for an extended period at AAA, while still being extremely young for that level. If Monty was in the Orioles' or Braves' system, the negative posters, here, would be screaming and peeing themselves like 9-year-old girls at a Justin Bieber concert. 

And, you bending yourself into a pretzel to play down any excitement over Monty puts you on the side of the poster who exaggerated negatively, and two is the absolute minimum for "a bunch" of posters. I win. I'll take your apology in 20's. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Well, in that case, all team systems are tied for 30th best minor league systems in the game. 

Again, you're making a tortured argument to not give any credit for taking a HS player at #22, developing that player into one of the top 20 prospects in the game and seeing that player have success for an extended period at AAA, while still being extremely young for that level. If Monty was in the Orioles' or Braves' system, the negative posters, here, would be screaming and peeing themselves like 9-year-old girls at a Justin Bieber concert. 

And, you bending yourself into a pretzel to play down any excitement over Monty puts you on the side of the poster who exaggerated negatively, and two is the absolute minimum for "a bunch" of posters. I win. I'll take your apology in 20's. 

I did not see this player have success for an extended period at AAA. He had a .710 OPS on the season. He had one month with an .815 OPS, which is better than the rest of his season but frankly not all that great either. When did this extended period of success at AAA happen? Before or after his 15 big league WAR? 

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I did not see this player have success for an extended period at AAA. He had a .710 OPS on the season. He had one month with an .815 OPS, which is better than the rest of his season but frankly not all that great either. When did this extended period of success at AAA happen? Before or after his 15 big league WAR? 

He OPSed .821 over the last 4 weeks of the season. Development isn't linear, and it isn't my job to make you admit that a strong, sustained period of AAA when still quite young for the level is impressive. 

Nobody ever claimed he played in the majors and had a 15 WAR season outside of you. Perhaps you could bring that up in your next therapy session. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He OPSed .821 over the last 4 weeks of the season. Development isn't linear, and it isn't my job to make you admit that a strong, sustained period of AAA when still quite young for the level is impressive. 

Nobody ever claimed he played in the majors and had a 15 WAR season outside of you. Perhaps you could bring that up in your next therapy session. 

That's a really pathetic "Strong sustained period of AAA success". Especially when a decent portion of it is associated with a BABIP spike from .250 to .320 - it wasn't unsustainable, but there was no drop in his K-rate in September, he actually had fewer extra base hits overall, there was no big increase in his was rate, he had a few more balls fall in as hits.

And the "15 WAR" was literally your line of how we need to credit their success with Montgomery because it's rare for guys to have success at the level of putting up 15 WAR when they're a 22nd pick. Read this quote and explain to me how exactly this writer is doing anything other than taking a victory lap after the team developed a player who put up 15bWAR. There is literally zero other way to read this other than "Wow you did great look how few guys put up 15 WAR so we should credit them for developing Colson Montgomery into that". 

 

Quote

 

2 hours ago,  WestEddy said:

3 of the last 20 #22 picks have had big success in the bigs (15.0+ bWAR). None of those three were HS picks. It's funny how a minor leaguer making the majors is definitely not a sign of success when talking about a minor league director, but when setting a floor for a White Sox pick, it's practically the Hall of Fame.

 

 

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That's a really pathetic "Strong sustained period of AAA success". Especially when a decent portion of it is associated with a BABIP spike from .250 to .320 - it wasn't unsustainable, but there was no drop in his K-rate in September, he actually had fewer extra base hits overall, there was no big increase in his was rate, he had a few more balls fall in as hits.

And the "15 WAR" was literally your line of how we need to credit their success with Montgomery because it's rare for guys to have success at the level of putting up 15 WAR when they're a 22nd pick. Read this quote and explain to me how exactly this writer is doing anything other than taking a victory lap after the team developed a player who put up 15bWAR. There is literally zero other way to read this other than "Wow you did great look how few guys put up 15 WAR so we should credit them for developing Colson Montgomery into that". 

 

 

You have already stated that the three guys who have put up substantial WAR in the majors aren't really comps for Monty because they probably progressed through the minors too quickly due to their advanced experience in college, and age (I'm assuming you're attributing their progression to this). They didn't stay around long enough to become the #1 prospect, and they didn't need extended development. 

So, there's not a lot of HS players who were taken at #22, then became top 20 prospects, getting to AAA quickly, and having sustained success there. 

And seriously, a month of OPSing .820 gets prospects promoted.

I brought up the 15 WAR bar to single out those whose accomplishments were clearly above what Monty clearly hasn't achieved. Weird that you are so bent out of shape by that. The posters who don't like me and pounce on most of my comments aren't even inspired to lift their heads up off the front porch to mock me for saying the 2024 bullpen looked "shutdown", or that I'm "fluffing" Nicky Lopez. 

[Quin]

Guys, can it be possible that Colson is still a top prospect that had a rough season, this diminishing his shine, but he also has a pretty good Fall League showing (unless your name is Keith Law?).

He looked like a sure thing at the beginning of last year and now there are questions, but he could still turn out great.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

You have already stated that the three guys who have put up substantial WAR in the majors aren't really comps for Monty because they probably progressed through the minors too quickly due to their advanced experience in college, and age (I'm assuming you're attributing their progression to this). They didn't stay around long enough to become the #1 prospect, and they didn't need extended development. 

So, there's not a lot of HS players who were taken at #22, then became top 20 prospects, getting to AAA quickly, and having sustained success there. 

And seriously, a month of OPSing .820 gets prospects promoted.

I brought up the 15 WAR bar to single out those whose accomplishments were clearly above what Monty clearly hasn't achieved. Weird that you are so bent out of shape by that. The posters who don't like me and pounce on most of my comments aren't even inspired to lift their heads up off the front porch to mock me for saying the 2024 bullpen looked "shutdown", or that I'm "fluffing" Nicky Lopez. 

Hitting .320 at Charlotte is like hitting .240 - .250 at Birmingham...

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, Quin said:

Guys, can it be possible that Colson is still a top prospect that had a rough season, this diminishing his shine, but he also has a pretty good Fall League showing (unless your name is Keith Law?).

He looked like a sure thing at the beginning of last year and now there are questions, but he could still turn out great.

We can hope. To me it all comes down to hitting gas. Hopefully, the issue was his health or correctable.. it would seem to me that issue would have reared its ugly head before 2024, so I have some hope. if you can’t hit gas, you’re screwed. He did have a good Fall League, but so did most. 

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

We can hope. To me it all comes down to hitting gas. Hopefully, the issue was his health or correctable.. it would seem to me that issue would have reared its ugly head before 2024, so I have some hope. if you can’t hit gas, you’re screwed. He did have a good Fall League, but so did most. 

Yeah, I've completely discounted the AFL for him and Elko. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

We can hope. To me it all comes down to hitting gas. Hopefully, the issue was his health or correctable.. it would seem to me that issue would have reared its ugly head before 2024, so I have some hope. if you can’t hit gas, you’re screwed. He did have a good Fall League, but so did most. 

See Tyler Flowers back in the day...AFL standout who eventually became more known for his defense when at that point he was almost the opposite.

[Dick Allen]

33 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

See Tyler Flowers back in the day...AFL standout who eventually became more known for his defense when at that point he was almost the opposite.

Adam eEngel also had a huge Fall League. But it’s better to have a good one than bad one. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Guys, can it be possible that Colson is still a top prospect that had a rough season, this diminishing his shine, but he also has a pretty good Fall League showing (unless your name is Keith Law?).

He looked like a sure thing at the beginning of last year and now there are questions, but he could still turn out great.

While it was entertaining to see the usual suspects lose their collective s%*# over a throw away comment, the truth is right here.  Dude had a big leap going into this year, and a big fall this year.  He had well reported problems hitting a fastball, and well reported back problems.  Of course we have had a complete lack of reporting on how either of those things is going at this time.  Could he not gear up for velocity because of his back problems, or are these two separate things.  Of course, no one is ever going to actually ask any of these questions, but really it is the key set of things to how Colson moves forward.  Until those things get played out, this is a great exercise in confirmation bias.

[WhiteSox2023]

51 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

While it was entertaining to see the usual suspects lose their collective s%*# over a throw away comment, the truth is right here.  Dude had a big leap going into this year, and a big fall this year.  He had well reported problems hitting a fastball, and well reported back problems.  Of course we have had a complete lack of reporting on how either of those things is going at this time.  Could he not gear up for velocity because of his back problems, or are these two separate things.  Of course, no one is ever going to actually ask any of these questions, but really it is the key set of things to how Colson moves forward.  Until those things get played out, this is a great exercise in confirmation bias.

I remember Montgomery had a back issues and an oblique injury in 2023.  I know back injuries don’t always just magically go away.  Does anyone know if there were any reports of his back flaring up again during the 2024 season?  Like you said, I couldn’t find any news articles or updates on his back for this past season.  Chicago sports media giving us that important news that we want!

Just curious if his back issues would be considered chronic.  Joe Crede still had a nice career but it was ended pretty early at age 31 due to his chronic back troubles.  Hopefully Montgomery isn’t in the same boat.

Edited Wednesday at 08:07 PM by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I remember Montgomery had a back issues and an oblique injury in 2023.  I know back injuries don’t always just magically go away.  Does anyone know if there were any reports of his back flaring up again during the 2024 season?  Like you said, I couldn’t find any news articles or updates on his back for this past season.  Chicago sports media giving us that important news that we want!

Just curious if his back issues would be considered chronic.  Joe Crede still had a nice career but it was ended pretty early at age 31 due to his chronic back troubles.  Hopefully Montgomery isn’t in the same boat.

All great questions which were never asked and answered.

[Quin]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I remember Montgomery had a back issues and an oblique injury in 2023.  I know back injuries don’t always just magically go away.  Does anyone know if there were any reports of his back flaring up again during the 2024 season?  Like you said, I couldn’t find any news articles or updates on his back for this past season.  Chicago sports media giving us that important news that we want!

Just curious if his back issues would be considered chronic.  Joe Crede still had a nice career but it was ended pretty early at age 31 due to his chronic back troubles.  Hopefully Montgomery isn’t in the same boat.

The Sox need to not play him at third because it seems like White Sox third basemen are destined to have injuries, especially backs and obliques.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I remember Montgomery had a back issues and an oblique injury in 2023.  I know back injuries don’t always just magically go away.  Does anyone know if there were any reports of his back flaring up again during the 2024 season?  Like you said, I couldn’t find any news articles or updates on his back for this past season.  Chicago sports media giving us that important news that we want!

Just curious if his back issues would be considered chronic.  Joe Crede still had a nice career but it was ended pretty early at age 31 due to his chronic back troubles.  Hopefully Montgomery isn’t in the same boat.

In 2022, both Moncada and Grandal were simply terrible. Moncada would have an occasional 5 hit day (really), and then the a week later he'd be back to 2 for his last 20 or something like that.

It took until December until there was a report of "oh yeah both of them had major back injuries that they were playing through" report for us to know what was going on. Grandal even went on the IL for something like a Knee injury, but never did anything about the major back injury.

That's for 2 big leaguers, we didn't learn the entire season why they were so bad. For a guy in Charlotte? Who is going to bother reporting that? Are any of the insiders these days going to leak something negative?

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

In 2022, both Moncada and Grandal were simply terrible. Moncada would have an occasional 5 hit day (really), and then the a week later he'd be back to 2 for his last 20 or something like that.

It took until December until there was a report of "oh yeah both of them had major back injuries that they were playing through" report for us to know what was going on. Grandal even went on the IL for something like a Knee injury, but never did anything about the major back injury.

That's for 2 big leaguers, we didn't learn the entire season why they were so bad. For a guy in Charlotte? Who is going to bother reporting that? Are any of the insiders these days going to leak something negative?

And we know that the Sox will absolutely lean on players to play through injuries, or leak news about how they aren't team players to the media once they leave.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

In 2022, both Moncada and Grandal were simply terrible. Moncada would have an occasional 5 hit day (really), and then the a week later he'd be back to 2 for his last 20 or something like that.

It took until December until there was a report of "oh yeah both of them had major back injuries that they were playing through" report for us to know what was going on. Grandal even went on the IL for something like a Knee injury, but never did anything about the major back injury.

That's for 2 big leaguers, we didn't learn the entire season why they were so bad. For a guy in Charlotte? Who is going to bother reporting that? Are any of the insiders these days going to leak something negative?

I remember with Moncada there were published reports he hurt his back playing for Cuba in the WBC shortly before the regular season started, if memory serves that was in 2022. It was reported by a number of outlets again if I remember right. 

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I remember with Moncada there were published reports he hurt his back playing for Cuba in the WBC shortly before the regular season started, if memory serves that was in 2022. It was reported by a number of outlets again if I remember right. 

I think that’s right, but I think we also didn’t hear those reports until like 9 months after it happened.

[Lip Man 1]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think that’s right, but I think we also didn’t hear those reports until like 9 months after it happened.

I can only speak for myself but I recall reading them as soon as Moncada had to go on the IL which was shortly after the season began. His back injury was aggravated by the half way around the world flights he was on for Cuba. 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I can only speak for myself but I recall reading them as soon as Moncada had to go on the IL which was shortly after the season began. His back injury was aggravated by the half way around the world flights he was on for Cuba. 

Unless I am thinking of something else, didn't he have a collision in the WBC with another fielder and go down in pain when it happened?

[Timmy U]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I remember with Moncada there were published reports he hurt his back playing for Cuba in the WBC shortly before the regular season started, if memory serves that was in 2022. It was reported by a number of outlets again if I remember right. 

If I recall correctly, he injured his back from sitting too long on the flight  from Japan.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

If I recall correctly, he injured his back from sitting too long on the flight  from Japan.

Glad that p**** is gone