caulfield12 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 13 minutes ago, Bruce_Blixton said: My interpretation of that post is that Montgomery had a similar profile to Merrill through 2023 and Merrill managed to get to the majors the next year so it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that Montgomery could grab the starting SS next year, especially with a potentially more competent MLB coaching staff next year. It's very unlikely but not completely impossible. Also, I don't really understand all the pessimism surrounding Montgomery, we all knew that he was going to be a raw project with tantalizing physical tools and up until last season he's exceeded all expectations. Even last season he struggled at AAA as 22 year-old still learning the game, but reading the sentiment about him on here and you'd think he was a 28 year-old journeyman. https://www.thebaseballcube.com/content/player/237219/ Merrill from MD, a state (like IN) not exactly renowned for producing MLB talent other than Harold Baines. To the majors at 21 with just two full minor league seasons after being drafted. Only 800 minor league at-bats AND an unexpected position change to CF with just one MLB spring training to prepare. Both players ascended to similar spots around the Top 15-20 MiLB range, but Merrill held and even moved up into the Top 8-10 if I remember correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champagne030 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 3 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Merrill is a much more dynamic fast-twitchy athlete than the Montgomery at Charlotte in 2024...the suggestion that Colson would play nearly GG level defensively in CF in Chicago replacing Robert would be met by more shaking heads of Sox fans who have nearly seen it all. Merrill is also more than a year younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce_Blixton Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If you can’t understand at least some disappointment in Montgomery after the season he just had, you’re being deliberately naive. He may well grab the starting SS spot next year, but we should not Rick Hahn this position and hand it to him until he proves he’s ready for it. What's the point of saying something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 56 minutes ago, Bruce_Blixton said: What's the point of saying something like that? Because the idea that someone could look at his 2024 and say “this went totally fine and as expected and raised zero concerns with me because it’s how I thought the season would go” is simply not believable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce_Blixton Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Because the idea that someone could look at his 2024 and say “this went totally fine and as expected and raised zero concerns with me because it’s how I thought the season would go” is simply not believable. No, I meant what is the point of saying something so antagonistic and rude? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 20 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Jackson Merrill's .782 OPS was lower than Colson Montgomery's .710 OPS? AA, pal. And 2023, not 2024. Disappointing that you replied without actually reading the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 12 minutes ago, nrockway said: AA, pal. And 2023, not 2024. Disappointing that you replied without actually reading the post. Except that .710 OPS is motivation for Montgomery's call up now, in 2025. And the numbers are a prediction that AAA in 2024 would be too easy for Montgomery. Oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Except that .710 OPS is motivation for Montgomery's call up now, in 2025. And the numbers are a prediction that AAA in 2024 would be too easy for Montgomery. Oops. It's not a prediction of anything. I'm offering an example of how, frankly, none of us really know what we are talking about in regards to Montgomery's development, outside of what is reported, ie the fastball issue and his back. And general pessimism about the Sox ability to develop players. You might've been saying the same thing about Merrill based on looking at a baseball-reference page was my point. And the point is certainly not that he will be as good as Merrill based on a projection of AA numbers or that they 'comp' on anything related to baseball tools, simply that one ought to not judge a 22-year-old's "readiness" based on some minor league numbers. You prefer he hit 2.000 OPS, right, but there's also reason to believe he was playing hurt and it was affecting him, considering the numbers were trending up the last month at Charlotte and in AFL. Can't put a ton of stock in that sample size, but there's an argument to make. .700ish OPS is not terrible anyway, just not what we expected. The actual point I wanted to make in this thread is that we can't call a guy "rushed" when he's rule 5 eligible! Sink or swim time, Monty! I think he's gonna be just fine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 57 minutes ago, nrockway said: It's not a prediction of anything. I'm offering an example of how, frankly, none of us really know what we are talking about in regards to Montgomery's development, outside of what is reported, ie the fastball issue and his back. And general pessimism about the Sox ability to develop players. You might've been saying the same thing about Merrill based on looking at a baseball-reference page was my point. And the point is certainly not that he will be as good as Merrill based on a projection of AA numbers or that they 'comp' on anything related to baseball tools, simply that one ought to not judge a 22-year-old's "readiness" based on some minor league numbers. You prefer he hit 2.000 OPS, right, but there's also reason to believe he was playing hurt and it was affecting him, considering the numbers were trending up the last month at Charlotte and in AFL. Can't put a ton of stock in that sample size, but there's an argument to make. .700ish OPS is not terrible anyway, just not what we expected. The actual point I wanted to make in this thread is that we can't call a guy "rushed" when he's rule 5 eligible! Sink or swim time, Monty! I think he's gonna be just fine. Being rule eligible doesn’t make your ready for the majors, even more so with High School and LatAm players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Being rule eligible doesn’t make your ready for the majors, even more so with High School and LatAm players. Maybe not. I’m not sure if Colson is ready for the majors. I just don’t think you can call it “being rushed” when he qualifies for a rule specifically created to prevent teams from stashing their prospects in the minors forever. Most of the big name high school guys from his class haven’t debuted yet but I suspect they will debut next year. Colson was also a year older than the typical HS kid (why he’s even rule 5 eligible, right?). It’s not a rush, we all expected him last year, he’s out of time as far as I’m concerned (and I suspect the White Sox and Colson Montgomery agree). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 2 minutes ago, nrockway said: Maybe not. I’m not sure if Colson is ready for the majors. I just don’t think you can call it “being rushed” when he qualifies for a rule specifically created to prevent teams from stashing their prospects in the minors forever. Most of the big name high school guys from his class haven’t debuted yet but I suspect they will debut next year. Colson was also a year older than the typical HS kid (why he’s even rule 5 eligible, right?). It’s not a rush, we all expected him last year, he’s out of time as far as I’m concerned (and I suspect the White Sox and Colson Montgomery agree). Calling him up early last year would have been being rushed. That might be ok for some players, but it might destroy some other players. Some guys struggle for the first time, develop some bad habits, and that's their career. Some guys might thrive with that challenge. Calling up Montgomery now would not necessarily be "Rushing him" in terms of a schedule you might have drawn up when he was drafted...but my word is this a player who did not at all look ready for the big leagues for an entire season at AAA. What would calling him up last year have done to him other than embarrass him? I don't care about the schedule when he was drafted. I do care about the fact that he couldn't handle pitching at AAA and major league pitchers blow AAA pitching out of the water. Rick Hahn's thing, one of his nonstop things, was calling guys up not because they deserved it based on their performance but because of external factors. Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, were called up because trades created vacancies on the big league roster. Madrigal, Vaughn, Rodon, Anderson, Fulmer were called up because we desperately needed help filling holes on our so-called competitive teams. Robert, Jimenez were called up because they signed their contract extensions. How much did all this backfire? Treat guys consistently. If they do their job and perform at a minor league level, call them up when the opportunity presents itself. If guys struggle, they have to overcome their struggles before they move to the next level. If you don't want to do that, then just bring back Rick Hahn, he was masterful in making moves for reasons other than baseball performance. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 43 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Calling him up early last year would have been being rushed. That might be ok for some players, but it might destroy some other players. Some guys struggle for the first time, develop some bad habits, and that's their career. Some guys might thrive with that challenge. Calling up Montgomery now would not necessarily be "Rushing him" in terms of a schedule you might have drawn up when he was drafted...but my word is this a player who did not at all look ready for the big leagues for an entire season at AAA. What would calling him up last year have done to him other than embarrass him? I don't care about the schedule when he was drafted. I do care about the fact that he couldn't handle pitching at AAA and major league pitchers blow AAA pitching out of the water. Rick Hahn's thing, one of his nonstop things, was calling guys up not because they deserved it based on their performance but because of external factors. Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, were called up because trades created vacancies on the big league roster. Madrigal, Vaughn, Rodon, Anderson, Fulmer were called up because we desperately needed help filling holes on our so-called competitive teams. Robert, Jimenez were called up because they signed their contract extensions. How much did all this backfire? Treat guys consistently. If they do their job and perform at a minor league level, call them up when the opportunity presents itself. If guys struggle, they have to overcome their struggles before they move to the next level. If you don't want to do that, then just bring back Rick Hahn, he was masterful in making moves for reasons other than baseball performance. Not to mention Crochet, Burdi...KW did it with Poreda and Ring, drafting for immediate big league roster holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Not to mention Crochet, Burdi...KW did it with Poreda and Ring, drafting for immediate big league roster holes. oh yeah I could have kept going. This one is ripe for you man, go to town. Forget KW existing, guys Hahn called up for reasons other than their performance at AA/AAA. You can come up with at least 5 more. You have to imagine how toxic this is to a system. Guys have no goals to shoot for, they have no idea what it actually will take for them to get called up, they have to give interviews about how they think they should be the starting SS or write an article called "I'm ready" before they get called up because they haven't been given a clear plan that both sides can buy into. Exact opposite of what we saw with Skenes, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 58 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Calling him up early last year would have been being rushed. That might be ok for some players, but it might destroy some other players. Some guys struggle for the first time, develop some bad habits, and that's their career. Some guys might thrive with that challenge. Calling up Montgomery now would not necessarily be "Rushing him" in terms of a schedule you might have drawn up when he was drafted...but my word is this a player who did not at all look ready for the big leagues for an entire season at AAA. What would calling him up last year have done to him other than embarrass him? I don't care about the schedule when he was drafted. I do care about the fact that he couldn't handle pitching at AAA and major league pitchers blow AAA pitching out of the water. Rick Hahn's thing, one of his nonstop things, was calling guys up not because they deserved it based on their performance but because of external factors. Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, were called up because trades created vacancies on the big league roster. Madrigal, Vaughn, Rodon, Anderson, Fulmer were called up because we desperately needed help filling holes on our so-called competitive teams. Robert, Jimenez were called up because they signed their contract extensions. How much did all this backfire? Treat guys consistently. If they do their job and perform at a minor league level, call them up when the opportunity presents itself. If guys struggle, they have to overcome their struggles before they move to the next level. If you don't want to do that, then just bring back Rick Hahn, he was masterful in making moves for reasons other than baseball performance. I see your point, it’s a good one that I don’t really dispute. I just don’t think you can start the guy off in the minors again, specifically for his development. Do I know what I’m talking about? Not really. But in a way, he needs to grow up. What is he going to learn at AAA, he needs another 600 at bats to see a fastball? The velocity difference between AAA and MLB is not that huge. I think it’s worth mentioning he crushed some flamethrowers in AFL (DL Hall). The new criticism is he can’t hit anything inside. I don’t know dude. Do any of us? It’s fun to talk about anyway. I like to point out what I think is a contradiction on fan thought in the “rushing” of a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 5 minutes ago, nrockway said: I see your point, it’s a good one that I don’t really dispute. I just don’t think you can start the guy off in the minors again, specifically for his development. Do I know what I’m talking about? Not really. But in a way, he needs to grow up. What is he going to learn at AAA, he needs another 600 at bats to see a fastball? The velocity difference between AAA and MLB is not that huge. I think it’s worth mentioning he crushed some flamethrowers in AFL (DL Hall). The new criticism is he can’t hit anything inside. I don’t know dude. Do any of us? It’s fun to talk about anyway. I like to point out what I think is a contradiction on fan thought in the “rushing” of a player. If he needs another 600 PAs in the minor leagues...There is a bigger problem. All I want to see is him reach a point where he is a solid, strong contributor against AAA pitching. Give him 6 weeks there. If he shows he's back to a .825-ish OPS against AAA pitching, which shouldn't be ridiculous in that ballpark at Charlotte, go ahead and give him a shot. If he is struggling after the first 3 months again this year, then there's something seriously wrong. Maybe that's a back issue and we need to shut him down and figure out another plan. Maybe there's an attitude problem and in a couple of years we can give him the Kopech treatment with talk about how he totally doesn't listen to coaches and that's totally never the fault of the coaches. Maybe he just never was that good and he will stall out at AAA. Straightforward ask here. The AFL was a good sign, now he can go out against minor leaguers, playing everyday, and show that he's actually fine and ready to go. If he's a top 20 prospect this shouldn't be an outrageous request. IF it is, there's more going on than we know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted November 22 Share Posted November 22 so are we convinced that he will be moved to 3B ? heard people mention he wasn't great defensively at SS, is that true according to the Sox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 8 hours ago, Balta1701 said: If he needs another 600 PAs in the minor leagues...There is a bigger problem. All I want to see is him reach a point where he is a solid, strong contributor against AAA pitching. Give him 6 weeks there. If he shows he's back to a .825-ish OPS against AAA pitching, which shouldn't be ridiculous in that ballpark at Charlotte, go ahead and give him a shot. If he is struggling after the first 3 months again this year, then there's something seriously wrong. Maybe that's a back issue and we need to shut him down and figure out another plan. Maybe there's an attitude problem and in a couple of years we can give him the Kopech treatment with talk about how he totally doesn't listen to coaches and that's totally never the fault of the coaches. Maybe he just never was that good and he will stall out at AAA. Straightforward ask here. The AFL was a good sign, now he can go out against minor leaguers, playing everyday, and show that he's actually fine and ready to go. If he's a top 20 prospect this shouldn't be an outrageous request. IF it is, there's more going on than we know. Totally agree. I just don't see why you'd keep a guy like that in AAA. It's not like there's anybody blocking him. Do you think he's a softie and his MLB career will be over the second he sees a pitch he can't hit? Perhaps. Better to learn that sooner than later though; especially in a down year, I think. If the team wants to compete in 2026, might be nice to realize you need a SS/3B and it's an easier decision to make if Montgomery takes 500ish at bats in 2025. I don't think he's going to 'save' the franchise, I just want to see if he's any good. I'm optimistic. Seems like a hard worker with a nice attitude, confident yet realistic. Realism suggests he's the opening day SS. I'll eat my Birmingham Barons hat if he's not (the hat I have on, some guy asked me tonight if it was a Red Sox hat...what you get when you go north. 'Oh are you from Alabama?' I digress). I tend to think another year in MILB is just going to be detrimental. What do you think about the coaching staff point? Should the same losers be allowed to work with him? The minor league coaches seem to be failing, this new hitting coach might be pretty good. The mailman asked me for a lighter the other day so he could light up his blunt in his federal vehicle and we talked about the hitting coach specifically, for some reason. I thought it was a Black n Mild, but our man unpacked the tobacco and filled it with marijuana. shout out. I guess. you probably shouldn't drive a vehicle like that. He said something about trading Crochet but I didn't understand the west side accent immediately. We agreed the hitting coach might be pretty good, "those guys in Baltimore can hit" they sure can. I plagiarized points I read on SoxTalk in order to impress the mailman. Thanks, guys. He was less interested in the Rule 5 draft discussion. I said 'you gotta let the kids play' and he agreed. I appreciate the team telling me Austin Slater was a major league contract, that certainly influenced the discussion. "yeah he played in Baltimore but what about Wilfred Veras bro." I digress again. Colson should 'earn' the spot, sure, but, ya know, I think he kinda earned it already because he's transcended his draft slot; and yes, I am also thinking about an arbitrary timeline. What's that got to do with Rick Hahn specifically? 4 years to finish university is also an arbitrary timeline, but people seem to be OK with that. Sometimes it takes longer, but occasionally brilliant people finish it in 2 years. In this analogy, Colson just finished his 4th year. We all like smoking pot and hitting on girls, Colson, but it's time to join the workforce, pal. Rick Hahn's problem is that he's an antisocial dumbass from Winnetka who simply doesn't understand how baseball works. Sounds like everybody's former manager in a way. Baseball is moving toward these guys making the league sooner. If Colson debuts at 25, that's sort of a problem, I think. Have you ever heard of a good baseball player that debuted with a receding hairline? I wrote some more relevant points, but I deleted them. They might be relevant in this thread later. Something to do with Vaughn and Ramos and velocity. I think the mailman bit was funnier. We can wait and see on Montgomery but I think he's gonna be pretty good. Just a feeling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Mercedes Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 On 11/20/2024 at 6:51 PM, Harold's Leg Lift said: I think he's gonna be the Opening Day SS. When he’s hitting .195 after a few months, should be fairly academic. But more time on the farm wouldn’t change much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 On 11/21/2024 at 5:20 PM, Balta1701 said: They were 100% clear that they held him down to limit his innings. They even got him on board with this right at the start of his career. Note the contrast between "open communication with your player about your plans for them" and "what do you mean the player says he doesn't want to pitch in the postseason I thought we had a good working relationship?". https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41443457/paul-skenes-says-pirates-made-right-call-bringing-slowly Are you insinuating the White Sox were lying to Crochet, trying to trade him while he believed he was going to finish the season with the Sox? The Skenes situation mirrors the way the White Sox brought up Rodon. I know that front office is gone, but apparently, the director of development made all the decisions for the Sox, even when he was in Kansas City, so that still probably holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 On 11/22/2024 at 4:39 PM, Balta1701 said: Calling him up early last year would have been being rushed. That might be ok for some players, but it might destroy some other players. Some guys struggle for the first time, develop some bad habits, and that's their career. Some guys might thrive with that challenge. Calling up Montgomery now would not necessarily be "Rushing him" in terms of a schedule you might have drawn up when he was drafted...but my word is this a player who did not at all look ready for the big leagues for an entire season at AAA. What would calling him up last year have done to him other than embarrass him? I don't care about the schedule when he was drafted. I do care about the fact that he couldn't handle pitching at AAA and major league pitchers blow AAA pitching out of the water. Rick Hahn's thing, one of his nonstop things, was calling guys up not because they deserved it based on their performance but because of external factors. Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, were called up because trades created vacancies on the big league roster. Madrigal, Vaughn, Rodon, Anderson, Fulmer were called up because we desperately needed help filling holes on our so-called competitive teams. Robert, Jimenez were called up because they signed their contract extensions. How much did all this backfire? Treat guys consistently. If they do their job and perform at a minor league level, call them up when the opportunity presents itself. If guys struggle, they have to overcome their struggles before they move to the next level. If you don't want to do that, then just bring back Rick Hahn, he was masterful in making moves for reasons other than baseball performance. Marcus Johnson and Jacob May, OD starters. I believe that Getz left the possibility open for Monty to blow AAA away, and move either DeJong or Lopez to the bench upon promotion. Monty did not blow away AAA, and he spent the entire season at AAA, which was the right and logical set of events. Pro athletes are such competitive beings, it often ruins their lives. I would expect a guy who just OPSed .810 at AAA to set his sights on the next goal. Nobody's handing it to him, and nobody's installing an aging veteran to block him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Marcus Johnson and Jacob May, OD starters. I believe that Getz left the possibility open for Monty to blow AAA away, and move either DeJong or Lopez to the bench upon promotion. Monty did not blow away AAA, and he spent the entire season at AAA, which was the right and logical set of events. Pro athletes are such competitive beings, it often ruins their lives. I would expect a guy who just OPSed .810 at AAA to set his sights on the next goal. Nobody's handing it to him, and nobody's installing an aging veteran to block him. Micah Johnson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted November 23 Share Posted November 23 (edited) 9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Micah Johnson? 2015 OD 2B. Whoops, did a name meld with Marcus Semien. Edited November 23 by WestEddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 (edited) 22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Micah Johnson? You just reminded me of the White Sox prospect (Micah Johnson) that reminded me of the Braves prospect that was traded for Sale. Vaughn Grissom. Some people wanted him as the headliner for Cease. Most thought he was going to suck. Well, he sucks. What a horrible trade for Boston. I guess the Cease trade could have been far worse. Yikes… Edited November 24 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Are you insinuating the White Sox were lying to Crochet, trying to trade him while he believed he was going to finish the season with the Sox? The Skenes situation mirrors the way the White Sox brought up Rodon. I know that front office is gone, but apparently, the director of development made all the decisions for the Sox, even when he was in Kansas City, so that still probably holds. Carlos Rodon was brought up the first week when the White Sox got extra control of him. He threw 2 games, 10 innings in Charlotte. Frankly, he should have stayed there longer. He was held down after a contentious negotiation with Boras about his signing bonus, where Hahn even laughed about how tough it was during a meeting with season ticket holders. Skenes threw 7 starts at Indianapolis this year, with his agreement, as a way to limit his innings and workload. This was equally clear. Very different, particularly in the attitudes of cooperation vs antagonism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted November 24 Share Posted November 24 13 hours ago, Balta1701 said: Carlos Rodon was brought up the first week when the White Sox got extra control of him. He threw 2 games, 10 innings in Charlotte. Frankly, he should have stayed there longer. He was held down after a contentious negotiation with Boras about his signing bonus, where Hahn even laughed about how tough it was during a meeting with season ticket holders. Skenes threw 7 starts at Indianapolis this year, with his agreement, as a way to limit his innings and workload. This was equally clear. Very different, particularly in the attitudes of cooperation vs antagonism. Boras complimented the White Sox' handling of Rodon's MLB debut, while criticizing the Cubs' handling of Kris Bryant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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