Should Sox pursue Carson Kelly

[zisk]

He's a free agent and a fine defender. He is a league average hitter for a catcher and has never been labeled a jackass.

Price range 2-3 million per x 2 years. Quiero won"t be taking over for a year or so. He's better than Corey if 2024 is that's

all CL will hit. Seems like a guy who could be a good coach later on.

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, zisk said:

He's a free agent and a fine defender. He is a league average hitter for a catcher and has never been labeled a jackass.

Price range 2-3 million per x 2 years. Quiero won"t be taking over for a year or so. He's better than Corey if 2024 is that's

all CL will hit. Seems like a guy who could be a good coach later on.

 

 

Quero could be a guy who takes over later but maybe Carson Kelly can play himself into a trade chip. Definitely an upgrade over Chuckie Robinson.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, zisk said:

He's a free agent and a fine defender. He is a league average hitter for a catcher and has never been labeled a jackass.

Price range 2-3 million per x 2 years. Quiero won"t be taking over for a year or so. He's better than Corey if 2024 is that's

all CL will hit. Seems like a guy who could be a good coach later on.

 

 

I think Quero is up by May 1st if not OD knowing this org.  And I still think Lee can be a very solid backup catcher.  I’d personally investment my limited money into a 1B / DH upgrade and give Robert some much needed protection.

[caulfield12]

Glove	50	Quiet setup, soft hands, has the potential to be a good receiver; moves well laterally; conversion project to the catching position but making quick progress; gets out from behind the plate well on bunt plays; good leadership behind the plate, takes control of pitchers.
Arm	60	Plus arm strength with quick release; 2.2 pop time to second base, can be improved upon with better footwork and more repetitions; enough arm strength to eventually display 2.0-2.1 times to 2B.     30 year old catchers are almost always on the downside, but he started out as a position player originally so less wear and tear.   Maybe maybe if it's just to replace Robinson and Venable had connections to him with the DBacks and loves his game-calling/work mentoring young pitchers. Definitely not the type of hitter who should be getting any more than 60-80 games, though.  Has bounced around a lot recently in his career.   https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/prospects/eyewitness_bat.php?reportid=202

[Bob Sacamano]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Glove	50	Quiet setup, soft hands, has the potential to be a good receiver; moves well laterally; conversion project to the catching position but making quick progress; gets out from behind the plate well on bunt plays; good leadership behind the plate, takes control of pitchers.
Arm	60	Plus arm strength with quick release; 2.2 pop time to second base, can be improved upon with better footwork and more repetitions; enough arm strength to eventually display 2.0-2.1 times to 2B.     30 year old catchers are almost always on the downside, but he started out as a position player originally so less wear and tear.   Maybe maybe if it's just to replace Robinson and Venable had connections to him with the DBacks and loves his game-calling/work mentoring young pitchers. Definitely not the type of hitter who should be getting any more than 60-80 games, though.  Has bounced around a lot recently in his career.   https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/prospects/eyewitness_bat.php?reportid=202

Recent connection in Texas too (granted, Kelly wasn't there too long)

[TheBooneLoganEra]

Quero will start the season with the team.

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Quero will start the season with the team.

If that is the case than he should have just been called up in September.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Quero will start the season with the team.

Harold?

Maybe if not for the injuries that slowed him down in the second half...

 

Taking a kid with ONLY 368 AA at-bats in 2023 and just 350 in AA/AAA last season to the big leagues seems like rushing again.

The kid's only going to be 21, give him at least a half season at Charlotte.

 

The other reason pushing Quero and Montgomery up fast doesn't make sense unless you're also doing the same with Schultz and Hagen Smith.

[Balta1701]

As the person who always wants guys to get more time in the minors…barring a terrible spring go ahead and bring Quero up. He checked every box I could have asked for last year as an outside viewer, and no one obviously complained about the stuff that isn’t in the stats. 

[Dick Allen]

I’m all for adding more catching. Hopefully Quero is at least half what we hope he is. I don’t think many people realize how bad Korey Lee was after his hot streak.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I’m all for adding more catching. Hopefully Quero is at least half what we hope he is. I don’t think many people realize how bad Korey Lee was after his hot streak.

He did look good for awhile but dude can simply not hit at all.  He’s a Tasmanian Devil typhoon strikeout machine.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I’m all for adding more catching. Hopefully Quero is at least half what we hope he is. I don’t think many people realize how bad Korey Lee was after his hot streak.

From a part time catcher, one hot streak is fine by me. 

What I’ve noticed from his numbers defensively is:

1. He has real promise controlling the running game, with elite pop time and above average accuracy so far.

2. There are two weaknesses in his game defensively. He’s poor at blocking the plate and awful at framing.

3. However, we have seen people on other teams get better at some of those with work, particularly framing. This hasn’t happened with White Sox young catchers though because they didn’t think of such things in the 1990s and that means it’s inappropriate to coach players on it. Is the new regime more open to working with him on improving pitch framing?

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

From a part time catcher, one hot streak is fine by me. 

What I’ve noticed from his numbers defensively is:

1. He has real promise controlling the running game, with elite pop time and above average accuracy so far.

2. There are two weaknesses in his game defensively. He’s poor at blocking the plate and awful at framing.

3. However, we have seen people on other teams get better at some of those with work, particularly framing. This hasn’t happened with White Sox young catchers though because they didn’t think of such things in the 1990s and that means it’s inappropriate to coach players on it. Is the new regime more open to working with him on improving pitch framing?

Tyler Flowers was an elite framer. Kevan Smith and Seby Zavala developed into good framing catchers with the Sox. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Tyler Flowers was an elite framer. Kevan Smith and Seby Zavala developed into good framing catchers with the Sox. 

Tyler Flowers became an elite framer once he left the White Sox and went to an organization that cared about it. Kevan Smith wasn't a very good framer, and then was released by the White Sox in Hahn's 2018 purge of the roster's catchers. 

Seby Zavala was in fact a good framer, and it kept him as a reasonable backup catcher option. The White Sox, of course, non-tendered him midseason.

[Jake]

I don't really care, but Flowers had top shelf framing numbers his last season with the Sox and they were always solid before that. Looks to me like he really solved framing in that last year with the Sox and carried it forward when he left. To some extent, it looks like he decided to give up on throwing out baserunners which he had done decently well and traded it for a lot more framing value. By the end, his arm had become a total noodle anyway so it was a wise move.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Tyler Flowers became an elite framer once he left the White Sox and went to an organization that cared about it. Kevan Smith wasn't a very good framer, and then was released by the White Sox in Hahn's 2018 purge of the roster's catchers. 

Seby Zavala was in fact a good framer, and it kept him as a reasonable backup catcher option. The White Sox, of course, non-tendered him midseason.

None of that supports you saying the White Sox believe that it's inappropriate to coach players on framing. 

[almagest]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

From a part time catcher, one hot streak is fine by me. 

What I’ve noticed from his numbers defensively is:

1. He has real promise controlling the running game, with elite pop time and above average accuracy so far.

2. There are two weaknesses in his game defensively. He’s poor at blocking the plate and awful at framing.

3. However, we have seen people on other teams get better at some of those with work, particularly framing. This hasn’t happened with White Sox young catchers though because they didn’t think of such things in the 1990s and that means it’s inappropriate to coach players on it. Is the new regime more open to working with him on improving pitch framing?

The new bench coach was responsible for the Brewers catchers becoming so good at pitch framing.

Quote

He also worked closely with catchers on techniques and mechanical adjustments to improve their receiving. McKinven was heavily involved in the defensive transformations of Omar Narváez and William Contreras, two catchers other organizations thought could not stay behind the plate.

When a pitcher productively transformed his pitch mix and how he attacked hitters after landing in Milwaukee, McKinven was part of the success story. When a recent Brewers catcher turned into an excellent pitch framer seemingly overnight, it was often because McKinven tweaked his stance and ran him through drills that retrained his arm, wrist, and hand movements to better guide pitches just off the plate toward the edges of the strike zone.

https://brewerfanatic.com/news-rumors/milwaukee-brewers/walker-mckinven-could-be-the-brewers-most-impactful-offseason-coaching-loss-r2814/

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

None of that supports you saying the White Sox believe that it's inappropriate to coach players on framing. 

In 2024 Martin Maldonado was 41st in MLB framing stats, out of 58.  Korey Lee was 52nd.  As a team the Sox ranked 29th.  Pick your watered down adjective, but 29th speaks for itself.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

In 2024 Martin Maldonado was 41st in MLB framing stats, out of 58.  Korey Lee was 52nd.  As a team the Sox ranked 29th.  Pick your watered down adjective, but 29th speaks for itself.

Gee, the guy they picked up from another organization and plugged in was bat first, and a guy at the end of his physical abilities wasn't good. All in a season where they were literally throwing anybody they could onto the field to get runs. Yes, that totally speaks to the White Sox' philosophy on framing. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

None of that supports you saying the White Sox believe that it's inappropriate to coach players on framing. 

They all fit with it, but the tale of Omar Narvaez coming up with the White Sox, showing no progress defensively, going elsewhere, those teams saying "We can work with this guy" after the White Sox dumped him unceremoniously, and him turning into a good catcher within 2 or 3 years is pretty much the definition of it.

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They all fit with it, but the tale of Omar Narvaez coming up with the White Sox, showing no progress defensively, going elsewhere, those teams saying "We can work with this guy" after the White Sox dumped him unceremoniously, and him turning into a good catcher within 2 or 3 years is pretty much the definition of it.

Sure, the Sox eschewed the coaching of framing up until relatively recently. Flowers was lambasted by the front office for letting his hitting fall off, even though he was to become one of the better framers in the game. I believe Grandal was an acknowledgement of the value of framing. I was roundly mocked for suggesting that Seby Zavala was an example of the new Sox approach to the development of the defensive side of the game for catchers. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Sure, the Sox eschewed the coaching of framing up until relatively recently. Flowers was lambasted by the front office for letting his hitting fall off, even though he was to become one of the better framers in the game. I believe Grandal was an acknowledgement of the value of framing. I was roundly mocked for suggesting that Seby Zavala was an example of the new Sox approach to the development of the defensive side of the game for catchers. 

.613 career ops and 70+ ops don't seem worth the tradeoff...especially with all that production crammed into 10-15 multihomer games.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I was roundly mocked for suggesting that Seby Zavala was an example of the new Sox approach to the development of the defensive side of the game for catchers. 

So you were mocked for saying that Seby Zavala was a solid White Sox success when...they designated Seby Zavala for Assignment mid-season? That...seems like something you should be roundly mocked for as the White Sox seem to have laughed at you.

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

.613 career ops and 70+ ops don't seem worth the tradeoff...especially with all that production crammed into 10-15 multihomer games.

Zavala? He's a back-up catcher. It's nice if your back-up catcher can hit you 2 dingers in a spot start. 

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So you were mocked for saying that Seby Zavala was a solid White Sox success when...they designated Seby Zavala for Assignment mid-season? That...seems like something you should be roundly mocked for as the White Sox seem to have laughed at you.

Nope. I never said "Zavala was a solid success". The convo was hidden because multiple admins were so owned they wept. 

I will type this slowly. Zavala's defensive advancement was an example of the White Sox' new ability to develop the defensive side of a catcher's game. 

They released Zavala in September to get Lee reps.