White Sox asking for "top prospects" for Robert

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What is a new hitting coach going to say that an old one didn't say about this exact situation other than "layoff the garbage."

A new hitting coach or coordinator armed with much better analytics and pro scouting reports will be able to tell and show him when and where to swing.  It’s not about the message, but how you develop a game plan for each player to execute.  I have wasted countless hours of my pathetic life watching this s%*# show of a team and I can say with full confidence that our hitters rarely have a plan when they go up to bat.  That should hopefully change under this new regime, at least enough so to see actual tangible improvements.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

3 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Put another way, if Getz can get a 50 FV and a 45 FV prospect for Robert, I’m taking it without a doubt.

So you would accept an Iriarte and Zavala type package?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, JoeC said:

I think it's more of a matter of actually getting coaching on what to anticipate in various situations against certain pitchers.

From the articles that have come out, it seems like they've basically just told guys "swing at strikes and don't swing at not-strikes." There was limited emphasis on applying analytics and coming up with cohesive strategies for specific pitchers in specific scenarios / situations.

This is exactly it.

[46DidIt]

I don’t like the way Robert goes about his business. His “training” videos and some his interviews speak volumes imo. He’s just not a baseball smart professional. Teams have to know they’d be essentially taking on a dipshit, which obviously isn’t a deal breaker, but still has to diminish him somewhat in light of his horrible season.  His talent is great and all, but between that and his propensity for injury I’d be fine with a decent package of solid B type prospects

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

A new hitting coach or coordinator armed with much better analytics and pro scouting reports will be able to tell and show him when and where to swing.  It’s not about the message, but how you develop a game plan for each player to execute.  I have wasted countless hours of my pathetic life watching this s%*# show of a team and I can say with full confidence that our hitters rarely have a plan when they go up to bat.  That should hopefully change under this new regime, at least enough so to see actual tangible improvements.

Which is exactly where reports have the White Sox failing  so badly with half assed attempts at it, instead of the deep and detail analytics real teams use.

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Which is exactly where reports have the White Sox failing  so badly with half assed attempts at it, instead of the deep and detail analytics real teams use.

Robert was talking about the new approach they had him on last season. Frank Thomas heard it, and said it was nuts.

[vilehoopster]

Sorry that this is in bold, but I wrote it in google docs to check my grammar and spelling, and when I copy and paste it in, it's in bold and I don't seem able to make the bold go away. Sorry, but no statement meant by being bold. 

 

"The asking for high returns is similar to what we got last winter about Cease. Other GMs won't offer anything near what Getz is supposedly asking, and when Getz gets desperate he will accept a lower return"

"All the talk is what a big return Cease or Fedde will require and then we end up with a mediocre to bad return."

"If you could get a weak return deal, like the one the White Sox got for Cease, that's better than winding up with nothing for him."

"Seems to be a thing with Getz.  We did the same thing with Cease."

 

One of the things that happens on this board is that someone will make a statement,  and everyone will run with it and quote it and it becomes accepted as fact. 

My best example of this is when people used to complain about having Sheets or Vaughn in the outfield, and they would state that having Sheets/ Vaughn in the outfield, that they were more likely to not call a fly ball and therefore collide with Robert and injure him. This was stated over and over: “Bah, bah and he’s a risk to Robert out there. Or “He’ll injure Robert”  And it happened so often that this stupid supposition became accepted as fact, quoted continually as fact as people complained about Sheets’/ Vaughn’s bad defense in the outfield. Yes, they were bad defenders out there, but the idea that they were more likely to collide with Robert was just ridiculous. 

 

The newest supposition that now seems to be taking hold is that Sox/ Getz lost the Cease trade, and that it’s a fact. There’s no way that saying the Sox lost that trade can be taken as fact and, to me, it seems very likely that the Sox may have won that trade. Right now, I see that trade is looking as 50/ 50 either for the Sox or for the Padres depending on the health of Thorpe’s arm this next year and going forward.

There was a 5  game stretch where Thorpe, as a rookie, had an ERA of 1.23. Certainly better than anything Cease did his first year with the Sox, showing outstanding potential and promise. One could make the argument that with Thorpe alone the trade could be a win for the Sox. Of course, it’s early. And a bigger of course is that a five game stretch means very little, but so does half a season. So to my point: there’s a long way to go before this trade can be judged good or bad for the Sox 

But . . . if you add in the three other players who also came with Thorpe, two also full of promise and potential, this trade is looking very reasonable. In my opinion, at this early juncture, the Sox are winning with this trade, or at least, breaking even. But there seems no way someone can state as fact and as a starting point for other arguments that the Sox lost the Cease trade.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Which is exactly where reports have the White Sox failing  so badly with half assed attempts at it, instead of the deep and detail analytics real teams use.

I agree, but I think it will change this coming season with all the additions to the org.  Not suggesting it will be perfect, but better than just telling guys to “swing at strikes” and “f*** the home run”.

[chitownsportsfan]

19 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

I don’t like the way Robert goes about his business. His “training” videos and some his interviews speak volumes imo. He’s just not a baseball smart professional. Teams have to know they’d be essentially taking on a dipshit, which obviously isn’t a deal breaker, but still has to diminish him somewhat in light of his horrible season.  His talent is great and all, but between that and his propensity for injury I’d be fine with a decent package of solid B type prospects

Jesus christ please don't ever negotiate anything for me.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

Sorry that this is in bold, but I wrote it in google docs to check my grammar and spelling, and when I copy and paste it in, it's in bold and I don't seem able to make the bold go away. Sorry, but no statement meant by being bold. 

 

"The asking for high returns is similar to what we got last winter about Cease. Other GMs won't offer anything near what Getz is supposedly asking, and when Getz gets desperate he will accept a lower return"

"All the talk is what a big return Cease or Fedde will require and then we end up with a mediocre to bad return."

"If you could get a weak return deal, like the one the White Sox got for Cease, that's better than winding up with nothing for him."

"Seems to be a thing with Getz.  We did the same thing with Cease."

 

One of the things that happens on this board is that someone will make a statement,  and everyone will run with it and quote it and it becomes accepted as fact. 

My best example of this is when people used to complain about having Sheets or Vaughn in the outfield, and they would state that having Sheets/ Vaughn in the outfield, that they were more likely to not call a fly ball and therefore collide with Robert and injure him. This was stated over and over: “Bah, bah and he’s a risk to Robert out there. Or “He’ll injure Robert”  And it happened so often that this stupid supposition became accepted as fact, quoted continually as fact as people complained about Sheets’/ Vaughn’s bad defense in the outfield. Yes, they were bad defenders out there, but the idea that they were more likely to collide with Robert was just ridiculous. 

 

The newest supposition that now seems to be taking hold is that Sox/ Getz lost the Cease trade, and that it’s a fact. There’s no way that saying the Sox lost that trade can be taken as fact and, to me, it seems very likely that the Sox may have won that trade. Right now, I see that trade is looking as 50/ 50 either for the Sox or for the Padres depending on the health of Thorpe’s arm this next year and going forward.

There was a 5  game stretch where Thorpe, as a rookie, had an ERA of 1.23. Certainly better than anything Cease did his first year with the Sox, showing outstanding potential and promise. One could make the argument that with Thorpe alone the trade could be a win for the Sox. Of course, it’s early. And a bigger of course is that a five game stretch means very little, but so does half a season. So to my point: there’s a long way to go before this trade can be judged good or bad for the Sox 

But . . . if you add in the three other players who also came with Thorpe, two also full of promise and potential, this trade is looking very reasonable. In my opinion, at this early juncture, the Sox are winning with this trade, or at least, breaking even. But there seems no way someone can state as fact and as a starting point for other arguments that the Sox lost the Cease trade.

 

 

There is quite literally a place in the top of a post to control font, including bold, italic, etc. 

As to the above rant, I think you are wrongly connecting FACT with COMMONLY HELD BELIEF.  All of these discussions are based on what people believe, and I have yet to see anyone claim any of your rant as a FACT, let alone the idea that EVERYONE believes it.  That's ridiculous and shows you don't actually read the discussions, just get offended when the crowd in general doesn't agree with you.

[TaylorStSox]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is quite literally a place in the top of a post to control font, including bold, italic, etc. 

As to the above rant, I think you are wrongly connecting FACT with COMMONLY HELD BELIEF.  All of these discussions are based on what people believe, and I have yet to see anyone claim any of your rant as a FACT, let alone the idea that EVERYONE believes it.  That's ridiculous and shows you don't actually read the discussions, just get offended when the crowd in general doesn't agree with you.

This is called projection.

[Balta1701]

41 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

There was a 5  game stretch where Thorpe, as a rookie, had an ERA of 1.23. Certainly better than anything Cease did his first year with the Sox, showing outstanding potential and promise.

At the end of that stretch he had a BABIP of 0.156. 

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

 

There was a 5  game stretch where Thorpe, as a rookie, had an ERA of 1.23. Certainly better than anything Cease did his first year with the Sox, showing outstanding potential and promise.

 

 

And then what happened?

And what happened when he faced a team for a second time?

And what will happen when teams get more tape on him and can game plan for his subpar pitch repertoire?

 

[2Deep]

Luis Robert was a shell of a baseball player when he came back from injury.

The question is was he hurt?

Or

He just didn't give a s%*#?

In the end, I....one of his biggest fans, stopped giving a s%*#.

He is not a winning baseball player. I don't give a crap about WAR....there are certain situations where WAR doesn't make sense. Apply Luis Robert here....

[southsider2k5]

56 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

This is called projection.

That is exactly what his post was, thanks.

[vilehoopster]

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"  BABIP is one of a ton of new stats that people use to make this or that point. 

An ERA of 1.23 sounds great, but that means nothing because his BABIP implies he was lucky.  Sorry, not buying that. 

There are so many stats in baseball now, that some stat or another can be use to prove just about any player is bad, great or just lucky. 

So does that five-game BABIP mean the Sox lost the Cease trade?   

[vilehoopster]

9 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

Luis Robert was a shell of a baseball player when he came back from injury.

The question is was he hurt?

Or

He just didn't give a s%*#?

In the end, I....one of his biggest fans, stopped giving a s%*#.

He is not a winning baseball player. I don't give a crap about WAR....there are certain situations where WAR doesn't make sense. Apply Luis Robert here....

Thank you 2Deep for inadvertently helping me out another example of a stat that can be questionable. But I agree with you on WAR. Everyone quotes it as gospel, but there are times when it seems to defy logic and make no sense. 

[poppysox]

20 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

As a couple others have mentioned, the only way stripping the payroll down that low makes sense is as a precursor to a sale. At least that's the only thing in my head that can make sense of that approach. 

I've had the same thought and I hope I'm right.  Jerry doesn't have enough seasons left in him to start from scratch.  For the most part...contracts are liabilities, not assets when selling.

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"  BABIP is one of a ton of new stats that people use to make this or that point. 

An ERA of 1.23 sounds great, but that means nothing because his BABIP implies he was lucky.  Sorry, not buying that. 

There are so many stats in baseball now, that some stat or another can be use to prove just about any player is bad, great or just lucky. 

So does that five-game BABIP mean the Sox lost the Cease trade?   

The irony being as baseball has gotten more detail oriented with analytics and stats, and the White Sox have refused to go that direction, they have fallen further and further behind the rest of baseball.  Or can we not use wins and losses to determine if a team is bad?  Is that allowed?  Is that factual enough?

[Bob Sacamano]

11 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I've had the same thought and I hope I'm right.  Jerry doesn't have enough seasons left in him to start from scratch.  For the most part...contracts are liabilities, not assets when selling.

I will say, I'm really shocked you haven't been pounding your fists for Madrigal reunion.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

So you would accept an Iriarte and Zavala type package?

I might very well be willing to do something like that right now. The chances of Robert having his value go to 0 are too high for a team like the White Sox to hold him.

[46DidIt]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Jesus christ please don't ever negotiate anything for me.

Well I wouldn’t take that position if I was doing the negotiating, just saying as a fan I’d be fine with it. Honestly youre probably right anyway though although Ive turned some good moves in fantasy in my day🤣

[46DidIt]

5 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

Well I wouldn’t take that position if I was doing the negotiating, just saying as a fan I’d be fine with it. Honestly youre probably right anyway though although Ive turned some good moves in fantasy in my day🤣

on second thought, that probably is the position I would take, if I were negotiating for the other side

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I will say, I'm really shocked you haven't been pounding your fists for Madrigal reunion.

There is no good reason not to pick him up.  

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, poppysox said:

There is no good reason not to pick him up.  

I can think of one: he’s terrible.