Coaching Staff

[Boopa1219]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

I think it’s a big deal that it seems that the Sox are the only team in the league that tells prospective managers “we picked out your staff”. 
in isolation, yea Katz is fine he has some hits and misses.  They just hired some of these guys last season so we don’t really know what they bring.   But this isn’t in isolation, this is a regularly occurring thing for this ownership front office and frankly it sucks that these guys come in and they can’t even hire their own guys outside of a few positions.  
 

hope it works out for Venable, hasn’t really worked out for his predecessors save one

When the Cubs hired Counsell, he kept the staff that was in place for the most part. And lots of GMs hire the pitching and hitting coaches themselves. This isn’t a big deal

[Chicago White Sox]

13 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Went back to look at coaching staffs from back when I was younger and really started paying attention to baseball, Joe Nossek, Walt Hriniak and Terry Bevington were carried through three coaching staffs (Nossek 4 because he made it through Bevington into Manuel’s staff).  Then you look at Boston and Cooper and realize it’s just the same thing.  It stinks.  They never let anyone start fresh with their own staff

And what do other organizations typically do when a new coach comes in and his former staff is still tied to another club?  Francona is keeping a ton of the Reds coaches that were already under contract and he’s probably got a much larger network than Venable.  Again, not trying to justify past mistakes and get the Sox don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt, but just not sure the Sox are forcing anything on Will at the moment.  It’s much harder to poach assistant coaches under contract in other orgs in the MLB than say the NFL.  As such, the candidate pool is mostly guys just fired or have been out of work for a while.  I just don’t see a reason to rush for replacements if you don’t love the options.

[Kyyle23]

29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And what do other organizations typically do when a new coach comes in and his former staff is still tied to another club?  Francona is keeping a ton of the Reds coaches that were already under contract and he’s probably got a much larger network than Venable.  Again, not trying to justify past mistakes and get the Sox don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt, but just not sure the Sox are forcing anything on Will at the moment.  It’s much harder to poach assistant coaches under contract in other orgs in the MLB than say the NFL.  As such, the candidate pool is mostly guys just fired or have been out of work for a while.  I just don’t see a reason to rush for replacements if you don’t love the options.

You have to remember here I’m not trying to convince you to feel the same way I do.  This is just how I feel about.  It sucks being right later when the Sox do the same stupid tired bullshit, but it is what it is

[Balta1701]

15 hours ago, WestEddy said:

 

 

Team led in starting pitcher fWAR in 2021 when at least 60% of the starting pitchers were using spider tack. I love giving Katz credit for the brilliance of SpiderTack.

[Kyyle23]

40 minutes ago, Boopa1219 said:

When the Cubs hired Counsell, he kept the staff that was in place for the most part. And lots of GMs hire the pitching and hitting coaches themselves. This isn’t a big deal

That worked out well for them

[Balta1701]

9 hours ago, Boopa1219 said:

Yeah the bullpen was awful but I guess that was by design, rebuilding teams rarely invest into their bullpens. I am expecting it to be better this coming season, they have lots of intriguing bullpen pieces in the system. And while we’re talking about the bullpen, I hope Getz doesn’t invest so heavily in their bullpen. In 2022, the Sox have a $203M payroll, $33M of that was spent on the bullpen. That’s 16% of their payroll. In 2024 the Dodgers spent about 10% of their budget on the bullpen.

What I hate about the way Katz is treated is that it's never his fault if things go wrong and its always to his credit when things go right.

Cease is great in 2022 - great work Katz. Cease has a rough 2023 and substantially damages his trade value - Dylan just had a bad year.

The bullpen is bad in 2024 - well they didn't invest in their bullpen, that's not Katz's fault. The Bullpen is terrible in 2023 - well they invested in guys Katz didn't like. 

The pitchers are great when using SpiderTack in 2021 - great work Katz. The starters fall back to middle of the league in 2022 and bottom of the league in 2023-2024 - well Katz didn't have much to work with.

This is really the Martin Maldonado treatment. When something goes well, it's to Katz's credit. When things fall apart, Katz has nothing to do with the pitching staff.

Katz is a guy who...weirdly for the White Sox, isn't one of the worst coaches in the league, but I don't think he's one of the best either. I think he has some positive impacts on some of his starters and we can see that clearly, but when guys have down years he somehow avoids the blame.

I think he clearly struggles with his bullpen, whatever he's doing with those guys the bullpen and pitcher usage has been an issue all the way back to 2021. His bullpen is bad when they spend the most in the league on it, his bullpen is bad when they try to bring in young guys and go cheap. The bullpen specifically was the spot in 2024 where guys were awful with the White Sox and then tolerable when they went to other teams. If you look back to pre-2024, people were thinking the bullpen would be better than the 2023 pen, because the 2023 pen was awful and they brought in new arms. The 2024 bullpen was then terrible, but Katz isn't blamed for that.

Right now, people are saying how they think the White Sox's rotation will be ok in 2025 due to the depth. If it goes poorly though, the excuses are already written - after trading Crochet they don't have any big name or heralded prospects in their rotation, so if its bad that can't be Katz's fault. 

He's not awful, they clearly could do worse than this, but particularly with the bullpen performance, this has been a weak pitching staff for years. The only time when this was a really good pitching staff was when he had most of his starters cheating.

[Dick Allen]

46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What I hate about the way Katz is treated is that it's never his fault if things go wrong and its always to his credit when things go right.

Cease is great in 2022 - great work Katz. Cease has a rough 2023 and substantially damages his trade value - Dylan just had a bad year.

The bullpen is bad in 2024 - well they didn't invest in their bullpen, that's not Katz's fault. The Bullpen is terrible in 2023 - well they invested in guys Katz didn't like. 

The pitchers are great when using SpiderTack in 2021 - great work Katz. The starters fall back to middle of the league in 2022 and bottom of the league in 2023-2024 - well Katz didn't have much to work with.

This is really the Martin Maldonado treatment. When something goes well, it's to Katz's credit. When things fall apart, Katz has nothing to do with the pitching staff.

Katz is a guy who...weirdly for the White Sox, isn't one of the worst coaches in the league, but I don't think he's one of the best either. I think he has some positive impacts on some of his starters and we can see that clearly, but when guys have down years he somehow avoids the blame.

I think he clearly struggles with his bullpen, whatever he's doing with those guys the bullpen and pitcher usage has been an issue all the way back to 2021. His bullpen is bad when they spend the most in the league on it, his bullpen is bad when they try to bring in young guys and go cheap. The bullpen specifically was the spot in 2024 where guys were awful with the White Sox and then tolerable when they went to other teams. If you look back to pre-2024, people were thinking the bullpen would be better than the 2023 pen, because the 2023 pen was awful and they brought in new arms. The 2024 bullpen was then terrible, but Katz isn't blamed for that.

Right now, people are saying how they think the White Sox's rotation will be ok in 2025 due to the depth. If it goes poorly though, the excuses are already written - after trading Crochet they don't have any big name or heralded prospects in their rotation, so if its bad that can't be Katz's fault. 

He's not awful, they clearly could do worse than this, but particularly with the bullpen performance, this has been a weak pitching staff for years. The only time when this was a really good pitching staff was when he had most of his starters cheating.

That was Don Cooper as well.

[Balta1701]

50 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That was Don Cooper as well.

Fair point.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Team led in starting pitcher fWAR in 2021 when at least 60% of the starting pitchers were using spider tack. I love giving Katz credit for the brilliance of SpiderTack.

Leaguewide spidertack was used the stat is still viable.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

You have to remember here I’m not trying to convince you to feel the same way I do.  This is just how I feel about.  It sucks being right later when the Sox do the same stupid tired bullshit, but it is what it is

It just feels like the same old thing with new marketing.

[Balta1701]

58 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Leaguewide spidertack was used the stat is still viable.

Ok, Katz is one of the most effective cheaters in the sport. Compliments to him for effective cheating.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok, Katz is one of the most effective cheaters in the sport. Compliments to him for effective cheating.

Again, every team, maybe every pitcher used it. Not sure what you're arguing.

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Again, every team, maybe every pitcher used it. Not sure what you're arguing.

That the only time people can point to where his staff performed exceptionally well, his staff was cheating. He was inarguably a great cheater.

[2Deep]

Katz is well respected and is a good pitching coach.  With him and Bannister teaming up, that truly is not one of the concerns with this organization in my eyes.  There are concerns everywhere else from your owner to GM to player development to lack of talent..........I can keep going.  

[FloydBannister1983]

18 hours ago, WestEddy said:

 

 

Now do the rest of the pitchers that led to 90 ERA+ the last two seasons and simply league average 2022 in the heart of a contention window.

[TaylorStSox]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Team led in starting pitcher fWAR in 2021 when at least 60% of the starting pitchers were using spider tack. I love giving Katz credit for the brilliance of SpiderTack.

100% of pitchers league wide were using it. The real difference is that Giolito and Lynn had the last good years of their careers.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

100% of pitchers league wide were using it. The real difference is that Giolito and Lynn had the last good years of their careers.

Naw, Rodon wasn't.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

What I hate about the way Katz is treated is that it's never his fault if things go wrong and its always to his credit when things go right.

Cease is great in 2022 - great work Katz. Cease has a rough 2023 and substantially damages his trade value - Dylan just had a bad year.

The bullpen is bad in 2024 - well they didn't invest in their bullpen, that's not Katz's fault. The Bullpen is terrible in 2023 - well they invested in guys Katz didn't like. 

The pitchers are great when using SpiderTack in 2021 - great work Katz. The starters fall back to middle of the league in 2022 and bottom of the league in 2023-2024 - well Katz didn't have much to work with.

This is really the Martin Maldonado treatment. When something goes well, it's to Katz's credit. When things fall apart, Katz has nothing to do with the pitching staff.

Katz is a guy who...weirdly for the White Sox, isn't one of the worst coaches in the league, but I don't think he's one of the best either. I think he has some positive impacts on some of his starters and we can see that clearly, but when guys have down years he somehow avoids the blame.

I think he clearly struggles with his bullpen, whatever he's doing with those guys the bullpen and pitcher usage has been an issue all the way back to 2021. His bullpen is bad when they spend the most in the league on it, his bullpen is bad when they try to bring in young guys and go cheap. The bullpen specifically was the spot in 2024 where guys were awful with the White Sox and then tolerable when they went to other teams. If you look back to pre-2024, people were thinking the bullpen would be better than the 2023 pen, because the 2023 pen was awful and they brought in new arms. The 2024 bullpen was then terrible, but Katz isn't blamed for that.

Right now, people are saying how they think the White Sox's rotation will be ok in 2025 due to the depth. If it goes poorly though, the excuses are already written - after trading Crochet they don't have any big name or heralded prospects in their rotation, so if its bad that can't be Katz's fault. 

He's not awful, they clearly could do worse than this, but particularly with the bullpen performance, this has been a weak pitching staff for years. The only time when this was a really good pitching staff was when he had most of his starters cheating.

There are things you can rip Katz about certainly, but pretending it’s his fault the roster has gradually lost talent over time and/or guys have lost stuff due to age or injury is a bit much.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Katz is fine.

Keeping Thames is the head scratcher. If you need to remake the entire organization’s approach to hitting, keeping the hitting coach makes no sense.  If you’re bringing a new approach there should be a new voice. 

[Texsox]

6 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

That was Don Cooper as well.

I think Coop actually earned that for a while. I'm not certain what Katz has done besides being younger than anyone else Tony brought in. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

There are things you can rip Katz about certainly, but pretending it’s his fault the roster has gradually lost talent over time and/or guys have lost stuff due to age or injury is a bit much.

I think Balta's point is we will blame age over Katz. We blame every hitting coach before blaming the player, age, etc. With Katz it's the opposite. 

[caulfield12]

What was a realistic expectation for the bullpen last year?

He seeningly coached up guys like Santos and Scholtens...but every argument is related to expectations.

Crochet and Fedde were his calling cards last year.  Cannon.  Not sure how much credit he gets for Burke at the tail end.  Thorpe was lucky or he outpitched his peripherals or both?

The team didn't just quit down the stretch...how much credit goes to coaches and how much simply to players' pride, like Benintendi?  They didn't turn on each other like the two previous years of finger pointing.

 

One thing is for sure.  The Brewers, Royals and Guardians and even Mets got more from their pitchers last year than what "should" have happened on paper.