Crochet Traded to Boston

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Rodon 2021/Cease 2022

Giolito 2018/19

Um...about Giolito's 2018...and about what changed in 2019...

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Um...about Giolito's 2018...and about what changed in 2019...

Yes, spider tack, but someone deserves credit from his going from one of the worst starters in baseball between his season with the Nationals and first year with the White Sox.

Whether it was his extension on pitches due to his long frame, deception/deceptiveness, regaining velocity/movement/spin-rate, perfecting the change-up...

Edited December 17 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Yes, spider tack, but someone deserves credit from his going from one of the worst starters in baseball between his season with the Nationals and first year with the White Sox.

Whether it was his extension on pitches due to his long frame, deception/deceptiveness, regaining velocity/movement/spin-rate, perfecting the change-up...

Yes, coach S. Tack.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 12/16/2024 at 8:15 AM, Sleepy Harold said:

#InBannisterWeTrust

And this stuff has been talked about for a while yet people will still say the Sox didn't develop him. The stubbornness of people to acknowledge the Sox can do something's right under Getz leadership is mindboggling.

It was all Crochet .Period. I don't care what's out there talking about all the ways they helped him get better, Or even who Crochet gives credit to.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And this stuff has been talked about for a while yet people will still say the Sox didn't develop him. The stubbornness of people to acknowledge the Sox can do something's right under Getz leadership is mindboggling.

It was all Crochet .Period. I don't care what's out there talking about all the ways they helped him get better, Or even who Crochet gives credit to.

I am willing to give the White Sox some credit for both Crochet and Fedde. Cease too.

Ethan Katz is not the worst pitching coach in the league. He has contributed to a couple of actual success stories, Rodon, Cease, and Crochet notably. 

Since the day that the sticky stuff ban began, the White Sox's pitching staff is 16th in MLB in fWAR. 19th out of the bullpen. 25th in bullpen ERA, 20th in starter ERA.

Is that performance satisfactory? Is that an appropriate level of performance given the goals of the team and the resources put into those spots? Trades, the most expensive bullpen in baseball in 2022-23, is that satisfactory?

Because if the end result of the White Sox is great performances from Smith and Schultz, teamed with a bullpen that puts up an ERA of 4.5 and 3 replacement level starters - that's the Ethan Katz performance so far. 

[TaylorStSox]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I am willing to give the White Sox some credit for both Crochet and Fedde. Cease too.

Ethan Katz is not the worst pitching coach in the league. He has contributed to a couple of actual success stories, Rodon, Cease, and Crochet notably. 

Since the day that the sticky stuff ban began, the White Sox's pitching staff is 16th in MLB in fWAR. 19th out of the bullpen. 25th in bullpen ERA, 20th in starter ERA.

Is that performance satisfactory? Is that an appropriate level of performance given the goals of the team and the resources put into those spots? Trades, the most expensive bullpen in baseball in 2022-23, is that satisfactory?

Because if the end result of the White Sox is great performances from Smith and Schultz, teamed with a bullpen that puts up an ERA of 4.5 and 3 replacement level starters - that's the Ethan Katz performance so far. 

So a team that's been historically bad and traded the majority of their pitching staff still managed to be in right in the middle in pitching production? I'd say that's pretty incredible. Katz and Bannister must know what they're doing.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

So a team that's been historically bad and traded the majority of their pitching staff still managed to be in right in the middle in pitching production? I'd say that's pretty incredible. Katz and Bannister must know what they're doing.

Oh so you want me to focus only on 2024? 28th best ERA in the league. Good enough? 

Note that I went all the way back to the moment that Katz’s one tool, cheating, was taken away from him.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh so you want me to focus only on 2024? 28th best ERA in the league. Good enough? 

Note that I went all the way back to the moment that Katz’s one tool, cheating, was taken away from him.

Why do you continue to act like only the Sox used spider tack?

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why do you continue to act like only the Sox used spider tack?

1. Ethan Katz got his job because he fixed Lucas Giolito. He fixed Lucas Giolito by cheating. Ethan Katz has his job because he’s a cheater. It’s like hiring the 2017 Astros pitching coach and asking me why I’m focused on that. Ethan Katz made Josh Donaldson honest.

2. That was, in hindsight, quite literally the day that this rotation started falling apart.

3. I can’t find any other team that had such a dropoff in pitching performance starting right then. 

4. Name one season, hell one half season, since the first half of 2021, where you felt the pitching lived up to expectations.

Edit: since the day of the sticky stuff ban guess which team has the worst walk rate in baseball.

[TaylorStSox]

29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh so you want me to focus only on 2024? 28th best ERA in the league. Good enough? 

Note that I went all the way back to the moment that Katz’s one tool, cheating, was taken away from him.

Again, Kat and Bannister must be doing a great job coaching the worst team in history and not even having the worst pitching production in baseball for that year. They're clearly ahead of the curve.

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Again, Kat and Bannister must be doing a great job coaching the worst team in history and not even having the worst pitching production in baseball for that year. They're clearly ahead of the curve.

That’s the game with these guys, it’s the same routine Hahn got - it can never be their fault. 

2022 “I think the pitching will be pretty strong, Kopech just substitutes for Rodon and they added a ton to the bullpen.” The pitching was a Cueto away from bottom 10 in baseball, but that’s LaRussa only.

2023: “The pitching should be ok, Cease should still be great and the bullpen is bound to be better.” 101 losses. Bottom 6 pitching staff. Cease sabotages his own trade value.

Pre 2024 here at Soxtalk “I think the bullpen will be ok with the arms they added”. The bullpen is awful. “How could you expect them to have a decent bullpen with these arms”.

I can already write the 2025 story. “We don’t really need a starter, look how many promising young arms we have.” Will turn into “No one ever said that arms like Burke were promising, there’s not even a first round pick among them, of course the starting rotation was bad, the important thing is that Martin had a good year and Schulz looks good and wasn’t hurt.”

 

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

1. Ethan Katz got his job because he fixed Lucas Giolito. He fixed Lucas Giolito by cheating. Ethan Katz has his job because he’s a cheater. It’s like hiring the 2017 Astros pitching coach and asking me why I’m focused on that. Ethan Katz made Josh Donaldson honest.

Lucas Giolito FIP timeline:

Pre Katz:

• 2018:  32 starts | 5.56 FIP

Post Katz:

• Pre Ban:  54 starts | 3.43 FIP
• Post Ban:  68 starts | 4.02 FIP

To suggest all of Giolito’s improvement since 2018 was entirely driven by spider tack is simply untrue and any White Sox who actually watched him pitch and saw the mechanical and repertoire changes over time would know that.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lucas Giolito FIP timeline:

Pre Katz:

• 2018:  32 starts | 5.56 FIP

Post Katz:

• Pre Ban:  54 starts | 3.43 FIP
• Post Ban:  68 starts | 4.02 FIP

To suggest all of Giolito’s improvement since 2018 was entirely driven by spider tack is simply untrue and any White Sox who actually watched him pitch and saw the mechanical and repertoire changes over time would know that.

And the Red Sox still invested $38.5 million into Giolito...for basically one season now, 2025.

If they didn't see enough value in him (and he was terrible after the trade and then subsequently on the West Coast)...well, they just don't throw money away there, not after the Yoshida contract.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lucas Giolito FIP timeline:

Pre Katz:

• 2018:  32 starts | 5.56 FIP

Post Katz:

• Pre Ban:  54 starts | 3.43 FIP
• Post Ban:  68 starts | 4.02 FIP

To suggest all of Giolito’s improvement since 2018 was entirely driven by spider tack is simply untrue and any White Sox who actually watched him pitch and saw the mechanical and repertoire changes over time would know that.

Post ban Giolito’s FIP is 4.42 and his ERA is 4.53.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Post ban Giolito’s FIP is 4.42 and his ERA is 4.53.

MAYBE, JUST MAYBE...we should look at the Top 8-10 teams AFTER the spider tack ban and see who those pitching coaches are?????

Obviously you'd have to isolate other factors, such as beginning "talent levels," players added through trade/FA, etc.  Acquisition/opportunity cost, but there should be a way to objectively assess/analyze it.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Post ban Giolito’s FIP is 4.42 and his ERA is 4.53.

Not with the White Sox it isn’t

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Not with the White Sox it isn’t

Maybe you guys need to have a dance-off to decide who's right?

[hi8is]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Maybe you guys need to have a dance-off to decide who's right?

🕺🏻💨💃🏻

[caulfield12]

 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why do you continue to act like only the Sox used spider tack?

I'm not fighting... but I think it's silly to not assume all teams (many players) used it... Similar to steroids during the roids era.

Edited Wednesday at 02:02 PM by Squirmin' for Yermin

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'm not fighting... but I think it's silly to not assume all teams (many players) used it... Similar to steroids during the roids era.

“Not a single Astros pitcher, and we remain 2nd in least affected ball clubs (Royals I believe are #1).

America’s favorite team would never be caught in a million years cheating! ^/s”

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'm not fighting... but I think it's silly to not assume all teams (many players) used it... Similar to steroids during the roids era.

100%…tons of guys were using it…this is not the Astros’ cheating scandal as much as Balta would like to paint that picture

[Bob Sacamano]

I think the argument he’s making is that the team’s pitching dropped off farther than other teams, but I feel like that is tough to say since the talent has also been lacking the last couple of years.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

39 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I think the argument he’s making is that the team’s pitching dropped off farther than other teams, but I feel like that is tough to say since the talent has also been lacking the last couple of years.

It may have, maybe certain pitchers benefited more from Spider Tak?  AKA, Giolito's change was INSANE with it.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I think the argument he’s making is that the team’s pitching dropped off farther than other teams, but I feel like that is tough to say since the talent has also been lacking the last couple of years.

Ok this is true for 2024, but the idea that the rotation was lacking talent in 2022-2023 is hindsight. They thought they had a solid staff both years and never did. The rotation massively underperformed both years, the bullpen struggled way more than people expected, but Ethan Katz was great in 2020 and the first half of 2021 so we know he can’t have done a bad job. 

Take a look at the comment I replied to at the start. “How dare you not give Katz and Bannister credit for Crochet and say it was his talent” - It’s literally the mirror of “Sure we thought the team was competitive and they won 61 games with a bottom 6 rotation but that’s just a lack of talent.” If a talented pitcher performs well it’s Katz’s great work, if a decent rotation performs poorly then they actually had less talent than we thought. Katz did great work if they’re a success but is blameless when they underperform.