State of the farm system

[WestEddy]

29 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

So we should trade Robert to get a young outfielder loaded with offensive and defensive potential?  Does anyone else see a weakness in this logic?

No. Disagreeing with a path doesn't make it illogical. 

[WhiteSox2023]

40 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

So we should trade Robert to get a young outfielder loaded with offensive and defensive potential?  Does anyone else see a weakness in this logic?

The weakness in your logic, or what I assume you are inferring, is that the Sox aren’t likely to be a truly competitive team in the next three years that Robert is under contract.  If the Sox retain Robert and he plays more like he did in 2023 and Jerry is still around, is he going to let Getz give Robert a massive extension?  The other side of the coin is the risk that Robert continues to get injured and underperform like he did last year and the Sox get nothing for him.

Edited December 13 by WhiteSox2023

[GreenSox]

22 minutes ago, Lyle Moooton said:

I wouldn’t label it as an “insane” lack. I don’t think it’s a lack at all, actually. The back end of our top 30 consists of viable big league starters and high picks from the most recent draft. I think we’re middle of the pack in depth and near the tippy top in high end talent. 

But we’re light at shortstop and centerfield; and light on elite prospects compared to the top farms:  only Schultz would fit that.

 

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

The weakness in your logic, or what I assume you are inferring, is that the Sox aren’t likely to be a truly competitive team in the next three years that Robert is under contract.  If the Sox retain Robert and he plays more like he did in 2023 and Jerry is still around, is he going to let Getz give Robert a massive extension?  The other side of the coin is the risk that Robert continues to get injured and underperform like he did last year and the Sox get nothing for him.

Again, this team has to make up 40 games with Luis Robert on the roster just to get back to .500.  They need to gain 45 to 50 games to get back to the playoffs.  Is there any logic that sees Jerry swinging the resources necessary to pick up 40 to 50 games in the three years, all while paying Luis Robert too?  We already know they are cutting for this year, so forget that one.  We are now down to two years left.  To me logic dictates working on the most probable path back to decency, thinking this mess can be fixed in three years doesn't seem logical.

[Quin]

33 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But it still doesn't come close to where they stood in 2019.

Basically double the number of starting pitching prospects with Cease Gio Kopech Lopez Dunning ... Moncada Jimenez Robert Vaughn Madrigal Burger etc.

Right now you still have just four legit position prospects and Wolkow's potential/high bust rate.

Yeah, people are using hindsight to look upon that team, which, again, Getz was a part of the front office.

I think he did well with the Crochet deal - it's actually really inspiring because it shows that he might have learned after Preller manhandled him. But the previous rebuild looked like you could pencil in the rotation and lineup for a half decade - they just had zero depth.

[Falstaff]

Back in 2012 when the Sox traded Eduardo Escobar, I didn't even give it a thought because of Beckham was locked in at 2nd base. I still am amazed in the direction their careers went.

I first saw Beckham at 2008 Sox ST in Tucson and was giving my brother-in-law daily updates.  Beckham was going to be the answer at 2nd base, Gordo had the makings of a superstar and the hair to boot. A 1st round draft pick out of a powerhouse college conference, what could go wrong?

The only upside is I totally enjoy Beckham on the pre and post and also when he broadcasts from time to time, great guy.

Edited December 13 by Falstaff

[Tony]

47 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

My opinion hasn't change since the last thread:  The specific players at the top are better, but I won't consider the Sox a top farm system until the prove that their processes of scouting and player development are on a par with the top teams. Look at the Cubs, the Dodgers, the Rays, the Brewers, the Red Sox, etc. They get a lot of value from lower picks that they maximize and they do a good job identifying the right talent with their premium picks. Plus, all of them are active in LatAm. Mike Shirley is showing good signs in his premium picks (with the exception of Jacob Gonzalez) but what they do internationally and the development of players like Bonemer and Wolkow will tell you if the Sox are really poised to have a top system or if the current ranking is an illusion tied to selling off their entire team.

This is correct. I’m sorry, but I can’t muster much emotion around any of this. Yes, the Sox seemed to acquire some young players that have the potential to be solid MLB regulars. Why should any of us believe they will be developed? It would be simply a faith-based argument, which is fine I guess, but it’s history has continually showed us this organization has failed consistently on player development. 
 

We’re all hoping for the best, but at this point in time, my expectations are still incredibly low, until shown otherwise 

[wegner]

11 minutes ago, Tony said:

This is correct. I’m sorry, but I can’t muster much emotion around any of this. Yes, the Sox seemed to acquire some young players that have the potential to be solid MLB regulars. Why should any of us believe they will be developed? It would be simply a faith-based argument, which is fine I guess, but it’s history has continually showed us this organization has failed consistently on player development. 
 

We’re all hoping for the best, but at this point in time, my expectations are still incredibly low, until shown otherwise 

Your 2025/2026/2027/2028 White Sox.....We're all hoping for the best

[Falstaff]

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

My opinion hasn't change since the last thread:  The specific players at the top are better, but I won't consider the Sox a top farm system until the prove that their processes of scouting and player development are on a par with the top teams. Look at the Cubs, the Dodgers, the Rays, the Brewers, the Red Sox, etc. They get a lot of value from lower picks that they maximize and they do a good job identifying the right talent with their premium picks. Plus, all of them are active in LatAm. Mike Shirley is showing good signs in his premium picks (with the exception of Jacob Gonzalez) but what they do internationally and the development of players like Bonemer and Wolkow will tell you if the Sox are really poised to have a top system or if the current ranking is an illusion tied to selling off their entire team.

I think the Sox have addressed their weaknesses in drafting and development but now they have to show results going forward. 

[southsider2k5]

41 minutes ago, Quin said:

Yeah, people are using hindsight to look upon that team, which, again, Getz was a part of the front office.

I think he did well with the Crochet deal - it's actually really inspiring because it shows that he might have learned after Preller manhandled him. But the previous rebuild looked like you could pencil in the rotation and lineup for a half decade - they just had zero depth.

Player Development was quite literally Chris Getz's job.

[WestEddy]

Seeing a lot of “I’ve seen this before…” reactions to the Sox rebuild. And I can’t say for sure it end the same as what they did 8 years ago, because no rebuild is ever guaranteed to work. But some thoughts:

1. This is NOT the 2016 rebuild. Different players, different skill…

— Michael Suareo (@MSuareo) December 13, 2024

Quote

Seeing a lot of “I’ve seen this before…” reactions to the Sox rebuild. And I can’t say for sure it end the same as what they did 8 years ago, because no rebuild is ever guaranteed to work. But some thoughts:

1. This is NOT the 2016 rebuild. Different players, different skill sets, different developmental staff.

2. Rick Hahn did a great job at getting value back in trades, but failed at putting together a cohesive team and building depth for when things didn’t go according to plan. This time around has a deeper collection of talent that (should) mesh better together, and has the depth that the last rebuild was missing.

3. Getz knows that the coaches and developmental staff failed last time around, and completely overhauled the front office because of it. Last year, the focus was on pitching. Not only did he revitalize the organizational depth on the mound, but he brought in Brian Bannister to lead pitching development. This year, he focused on bringing in position players with the Crochet trade, and hired Ryan Fuller to get their hitting development back on track.

4. The collection of prospects is more complimentary this time around. On the mound, you have the potential aces in Schultz, Smith, and Taylor, but also work in the high floor guys like Thorpe, Cannon, Adams, and others. On the hitting side, there’s been an emphasis on players who work counts and make good swing decisions. Some have higher ceilings than others, but these aren’t guys who are going to swing at low and away sliders 2/3 of the time. These are guys who will work counts and get on base, which alone puts more pressure on opposing pitchers. Again, this is not the last rebuild. This is a much more calculated approach from Getz and co. No one knows if it will result in more success, but counting it out because it didn’t work last time is baseless and short sighted. Finally… if fans want to be excited for this rebuild, LET THEM. This past season sucked for us all, so if fans want to go all in on this rebuild to keep their love for the game alive, then great! If you don’t like it, don’t pay attention to it. Don’t police other people’s fandom.

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.

 

[caulfield12]

 

486

 

[Karoll] Just a reminder of the White Sox Draft and Development History, here is every White Sox hitter over the last 30+ years that the team drafted who became an All-Star with the team: Tim Anderson, Joe Crede, Ray Durham, Frank Thomas. That’s it. For 3 decades. 
That’s a bit misleading because you also have Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Buehrle, Sale, Rodon, but almost all the success on the pitching side.  Mike Cameron, but once again, nobody close to recent vintage.  Beckham and Borchard disappointments really stand out.  Zack Collins lol.  Vaguely remember when Call and Fisher and Walker, more “refined” college picks were going to revolutionize the system.

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

 

This guy simply has to be related to either Getz or Brooks Boyer…he’s also forgetting we will be missing at least two (if not three) Top 1-3 draft picks because of the Jerry Reinsdorf “Sox are a large market club without acting like one draft rule.”

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

But it still doesn't come close to where they stood in 2019.

Basically double the number of starting pitching prospects with Cease Gio Kopech Lopez Dunning ... Moncada Jimenez Robert Vaughn Madrigal Burger etc.

Right now you still have just four legit position prospects and Wolkow's potential/high bust rate.

If you’re including all those guys in 2019 then here’s the current list by comparison (since a lot of those guys were no longer prospects in 2019):

SP - Thorpe, Cannon, Schultz, Smith, Iriarte, Taylor

PP - Teel, C Montgomery, Quero, B Montgomery

add another name to this list after Robert is traded and then in July after the #10 pick and I think this group will basically be where they were at in 2019 in perhaps the 2026 season. It’s really not that far off already. Then add some more TDL deals the next two Julys plus a top 3 pick in 2026 and we’re there.

This time around gotta hope this young core isn’t nearly as injury prone as the last core. Then they obviously need to develop them better. Lastly, gotta pray for a new owner by 2027 that’s willing to add top FAs to the young core group.

[PaleAleSox]

Getz revamping everything makes me think he hated how things were ran when he didn't have complete control. I guess we will find out in the next couple years if his hands were tied by the previous regime or if he is just as bad or worse. 

For sure seems, at least from the hitting side, that he is getting guys who have a better understanding of the strike zone, and the two big pieces he just got supposedly hit the ball hard. I know that was a concern a lot of people had (him not worried about power). 

[Quin]

24 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

 

Quote

2. Rick Hahn did a great job at getting value back in trades, but failed at putting together a cohesive team and building depth for when things didn’t go according to plan. This time around has a deeper collection of talent that (should) mesh better together, and has the depth that the last rebuild was missing.

People are jaded cause the guy in charge of building the depth last time is in charge of the whole operation this time.

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

This guy simply has to be related to either Getz or Brooks Boyer…he’s also forgetting we will be missing at least two (if not three) Top 1-3 draft picks because of the Jerry Reinsdorf “Sox are a large market club without acting like one draft rule.”

It also completely ignores that Getz WAS the leader of that development staff that failed.  It's the spiderman meme in real life.

[Quin]

I do love this by the way. Some detractors (like me) are giving Getz some well earned compliments, but because it's not "rah-rah full-steam ahead Getz has actually been making master moves this entire time," fans that just watched the worst team in MLB history are wrong.

[PaleAleSox]

14 minutes ago, Quin said:

People are jaded cause the guy in charge of building the depth last time is in charge of the whole operation this time.

I will always wonder (and we will know in a couple years) how "in charge" he was of the whole thing and what he was being told to emphasize. Time will tell. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

13 minutes ago, Quin said:

I do love this by the way. Some detractors (like me) are giving Getz some well earned compliments, but because it's not "rah-rah full-steam ahead Getz has actually been making master moves this entire time," fans that just watched the worst team in MLB history are wrong.

It’s somewhere in middle for me. I know 99% of the board had their mind made up on Getz less than 12 months into the job but it was obvious he was left holding a bag of s%*# and I believe he deserved more time.

I don’t think we really know anything about GM Getz for another 12-18 months but there’s no denying he’s rebuilding the farm system, scrubbing the mlb roster to bare bones (like the bears recently did), and making a number of ancillary moves within the coaching staff, player development, and international that hopefully pay off eventually. I see positives but the jury is still out. I want to see him continue to build off this momentum over the next 12 months and we’ll see where they land. Realistically, this team isn’t competitive until 2027 even if he does a great job.

Edited December 13 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Let’s keep in mind it took until 2020 for the team to become competitive after the fire sale that started after the 2016 season. This latest fire sale started after the 2024 season with the Cease trade so 2028 is a realistic target for competitiveness for this current rebuild. 2027 is possible if everything goes well and the owner is actually willing to spend some money in free agency following the 2026 season.

[WestEddy]

21 minutes ago, Quin said:

I do love this by the way. Some detractors (like me) are giving Getz some well earned compliments, but because it's not "rah-rah full-steam ahead Getz has actually been making master moves this entire time," fans that just watched the worst team in MLB history are wrong.

I actually don't consider you a detractor. Nobody's asking for detractors to be "rah-rah...". Lazy arguments are exhausting. I guess they're meant to be. 

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s somewhere in middle for me. I know 99% of the board had their mind made up on Getz less than 12 months into the job but it was obvious he was left holding a bag of s%*# and I believe he deserved more time.

I don’t think we really know anything about GM Getz for another 12-18 months but there’s no denying he’s rebuilding the farm system, scrubbing the mlb roster to bare bones (like the bears recently did), and making a number of ancillary moves within the coaching staff, player development, and international that hopefully pay off eventually. I see positives but the jury is still out. I want to see him continue to build off this momentum over the next 12 months and we’ll see where they land. Realistically, this team isn’t competitive until 2027 even if he does a great job.

More like 12 minutes. I agree that KW probably didn't see the value in a full investment in development, so he never went to bat with JR for it. If you're an accountant, and the boss won't let you use computers, or even calculators, it's unfair to say all the failures of that company are because of the new accountant. I'm pretty sure Getz didn't get the job, and forbid the use of statistical data or even iPads. Seeing how he's conducted his rebuild of the infrastructure, he's probably been banging his head against the wall for years trying to get these things done. 

 

[WhiteSox2023]

31 minutes ago, Quin said:

I do love this by the way. Some detractors (like me) are giving Getz some well earned compliments, but because it's not "rah-rah full-steam ahead Getz has actually been making master moves this entire time," fans that just watched the worst team in MLB history are wrong.

It’s annoying that some on the “rah-rah” side won’t accept that someone can think that the Crochet trade was good but that the Cease trade was mediocre, and that most of Getz’s other trades have been bad.

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I actually don't consider you a detractor. Nobody's asking for detractors to be "rah-rah...". Lazy arguments are exhausting. I guess they're meant to be. 

This is kind of how I view Suareo's post: "It's more calculated, complimentary, etc."

• Citing potential aces like Schultz, Smith and Taylor: The 2017 rebuild rotation was Giolito-Kopech-Lopez-Cease-Dunning. Rodon was a "maybe he comes back?" guy. Smith hasn't thrown a full year, Taylor needs health, and this is forgetting Alec Hansen's brief run of dominance in the minors. Fulmer was also in there.
• Dudes who walk: Moncada was supposed to be a high-OBP guy (he swung out looking, so, so many times). Eloy had a high OBP in the minors. Abreu was here. Anderson was the BABIP guy. Robert was the 5-tool star in the wings. Collins - again - was supposed to be a high OBP catcher. Same with Burger.
• Let fans be excited: Many were, then you had the "just win, baby!" greg types. But this go around the draft is harsher and we know Jerry won't spend on free agents, especially when he had the golden opportunity of Machado/Harper.

So that post wasn't a knock on you, but on the tweet. He's looking back on the previous rebuild with PURE hindsight and is assuming perfect health and development for this one.