State of the farm system

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Apparently he is a fraction of the player development guy that Kenny Williams was by your own definition, because he was able to churn guys out with even less resources. 

But sure, I am going to believe that some "resources" were the problem, somehow the person responsible for approving resources hasn't changed, but now that problem is all better because Chris asked, and somehow Kenny and Rick were refusing any extra resources for some weird reason that has never been stated or outlined.

But again, this isn't far fetched.

Analytics, pitching and hitting tech labs, nutrition and sleep study - none of that was as advanceded as it is now. The Sox were on more of an even playing field, then. You're not really refuting anything. Surely, you're not claiming that the White Sox have been state-of-the-art in all areas of development for the last decade?

[southsider2k5]

36 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Analytics, pitching and hitting tech labs, nutrition and sleep study - none of that was as advanceded as it is now. The Sox were on more of an even playing field, then. You're not really refuting anything. Surely, you're not claiming that the White Sox have been state-of-the-art in all areas of development for the last decade?

At least you are dropping the idea that the previous regime was actively refusing all of this, even after the absurdity that an "entry level" employee was somehow qualified to run an entire baseball organization better than experienced people because he apparently asked for stuff, but only after nine years.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

At least you are dropping the idea that the previous regime was actively refusing all of this, even after the absurdity that an "entry level" employee was somehow qualified to run an entire baseball organization better than experienced people because he apparently asked for stuff, but only after nine years.

None of this makes any sense, but I think that's the purpose. I hope one day you find peace with being relieved of your position, Rick. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

None of this makes any sense, but I think that's the purpose. I hope one day you find peace with being relieved of your position, Rick. 

Well I fully agree with the idea that none of this makes sense, hence my perplexed replies to your absurdities.  But bonus points for the school yard level taunt.

[GreenSox]

It's hard to judge Getz' performance re development simply because the inputs have been objectively weak. 

The international signing classes were consistently at the bottom; now the rankings aren't perfect, but I'd liken them to college recruiting classes:  if you are recruiting 2 star players, you aren't going to beat Ohio State.  

And then there is the draft. I believe that Shirley is good evaluator of talent.  But is he that good?  - better than basically everyone else?  Well, that's what he needs to be because the Sox punt away a lot of the picks in rounds 6-10..    But in doing that, the Sox are reaching for most of their 2-5 picks.  If a guy is a consensus #50 and the Sox draft him at #50, if they pay him overslot, they have reached.  If the Sox are deadeye accurate in their scouting and evaluation, that strategy will work; if they aren't, it's a huge fail.   (And I realize I'm in the minority in questioning this strategy).

Regardless, it's hard to build a contender from ground 0.  But I think the Sox are off to a decent start with the pitching.  Put some Free Agent money into a couple of sticks.

 

 

Edited December 14 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

It's hard to judge Getz' performance re development simply because the inputs have been objectively weak. 

The international signing classes were consistently at the bottom; now the rankings aren't perfect, but I'd liken them to college recruiting classes:  if you are recruiting 2 star players, you aren't going to beat Ohio State.  

And then there is the draft. I believe that Shirley is good evaluator of talent.  But is he that good?  - better than basically everyone else?  Well, that's what he needs to be because the Sox punt away a lot of the picks in rounds 6-10..    But in doing that, the Sox are reaching for most of their 2-5 picks.  If a guy is a consensus #50 and the Sox draft him at #50, if they pay him overslot, they have reached.  If the Sox are deadeye accurate in their scouting and evaluation, that strategy will work; if they aren't, it's a huge fail.   (And I realize I'm in the minority in questioning this strategy).

Regardless, it's hard to build a contender from ground 0.  But I think the Sox are off to a decent start with the pitching.  Put some Free Agent money into a couple of sticks.

 

 

More like Iowa Northwestern Wisconsin Indiana competing against the top of the Big 10...maybe once every five to ten years or so.

But not consistently.

Of the Central team in Chicago should be OSU MU PSU Oregon USC UCLA in this analogy but we are more like Rutgers.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

19 hours ago, GreenSox said:

It's hard to judge Getz' performance re development simply because the inputs have been objectively weak. 

The international signing classes were consistently at the bottom; now the rankings aren't perfect, but I'd liken them to college recruiting classes:  if you are recruiting 2 star players, you aren't going to beat Ohio State.  

And then there is the draft. I believe that Shirley is good evaluator of talent.  But is he that good?  - better than basically everyone else?  Well, that's what he needs to be because the Sox punt away a lot of the picks in rounds 6-10..    But in doing that, the Sox are reaching for most of their 2-5 picks.  If a guy is a consensus #50 and the Sox draft him at #50, if they pay him overslot, they have reached.  If the Sox are deadeye accurate in their scouting and evaluation, that strategy will work; if they aren't, it's a huge fail.   (And I realize I'm in the minority in questioning this strategy).

Regardless, it's hard to build a contender from ground 0.  But I think the Sox are off to a decent start with the pitching.  Put some Free Agent money into a couple of sticks.

 

 

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 3 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

Edited December 14 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

https://www.mlb.com/news/all-time-white-sox-top-draft-picks

Which of those picks from 2015 through Crochet have amounted to anything elsewhere, tbough?

There's also a big difference between #10/11 and Top 3, but the lower picks have outperformed recently and Madrigal/Vaughn have busted.

Only Rodon (eventually) realized his potential.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, greg775 said:

I thought we moved past this Cubs stuff. Geez.

I believe you Greg . You're a good Catholic kid raised to respect people unlike the boomer giving you s%*# because he feels superior to you and basically loves to pick on the unpopular kids even as a grown man still acting like a bully on a fan forum.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/all-time-white-sox-top-draft-picks

Which of those picks from 2015 through Crochet have amounted to anything elsewhere, tbough?

There's also a big difference between #10/11 and Top 3, but the lower picks have outperformed recently and Madrigal/Vaughn have busted.

Only Rodon (eventually) realized his potential.

What does anyone of this have to do with what I typed?

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What does anyone of this have to do with what I typed?

"Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had..."

Why is Getz being judged for not developing Fulmer Collins Madrigal and Vaughn...?  For Burger tearing two Achilles?

None of Paddy's signings since Robert have amounted to anything....with the Sox or elsewhere.

Let's also not act like he has had a huge treasure chest of talent, and Getz was also around as Crochet Colson and Schultz have each dramatically outperformed their lower draft slots. 

Sox are just a few years removed from having a bottom 3 minor league system...part of the reason due to Crochet being immediately pushed by Hahn into the 2020 pennant race, the Burger injury and Vaughn being recalled too quickly to fill an outfield hole.

Edited December 14 by caulfield12

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

"Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had..."

Why is Getz being judged for not developing Fulmer Collins Madrigal and Vaughn...?  For Burger tearing two Achilles?

None of Paddy's signings since Robert have amounted to anything....with the Sox or elsewhere.

Let's also not act like he has had a huge treasure chest of talent, and  Getz was also around as Crochet Colson and Schultz have each dramatically outperformed their lower draft slots. 

Sox are just a few years removed from having a bottom 3 minor league system...part of the reason due to Crochet being immediately pushed by Hahn into the 2020 pennant race, the Burger injury and Vaughn being recalled too quickly to fill an outfield hole.

Why is he being judged for not developing consensus high draft picks? Because that was his job.

Everything i stated was a fact. I'm sorry that bothers you. 

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Why is he being judged for not developing consensus high draft picks? Because that was his job.

Everything i stated was a fact. I'm sorry that bothers you. 

Nobody has gotten expected performances from Madrigal Fulmer Collins...and it's not like even Rusty Kuntz could have turned Vaughn into an average major league LFer.

Burger Crochet C.Montgomery (top 15 MiLB ranking) and Schultz all peaked in the Sox system.

And roughly 75-80% of consensus high draft picks end their careers with 0-5 lifetime fWAR.

[SoxBlanco]

12 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

I can see both sides of this argument. It’s impossible to know who is right because we don’t know how these players would have faired if drafted by teams who develop players properly. Do you think guys like Collins, Fulmer, and Madrigal would have succeeded if they were drafted somewhere else? 

[Rusty_Kuntz]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Nobody has gotten expected performances from Madrigal Fulmer Collins...and it's not like even Rusty Kuntz could have turned Vaughn into an average major league LFer.

Burger Crochet C.Montgomery (top 15 MiLB ranking) and Schultz all peaked in the Sox system.

And roughly 75-80% of consensus high draft picks end their careers with 0-5 lifetime fWAR.

I could have, but I've been pretty deep in the bottle lately. 

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, Rusty_Kuntz said:

I could have, but I've been pretty deep in the bottle lately. 

That kind of goes against the Dayton Moore/FCA Code of Conduct...

[WestEddy]

15 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

Chris Getz was hired in October 2016. Since then, the White Sox have drafted in the top 10 three times. 

2016 - Zach Collins taken at 10. He had a known hitch in his swing, and the pick was panned. That was a notoriously shallow draft. 
2017 - Jake Burger at 11. Tore his Achilles tendon twice. 
2018 - Nick Madrigal at 4. Spent one full season in the minors. He hit .300 for the White Sox before being traded for being injured too often. 
2019 - Andrew Vaughn at 3. He had 245 PAs in minor league ball before being promoted to the bigs. 
2020 - Garret Crochet at 11. Skipped the minors. 
2021 - Colson Montgomery at 22. Was a top 20 in the game prospect before injuries at AA. Still top 50. 
2022 - Noah Schultz at 26. Top 20 in the game prospect. 

I'm not sure what you're arguing, here. You're not even correct with your assertions about Chris Getz' tenure. Eloy, Yoan, Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech all were promoted to the bigs. Are you saying that Cease wasn't developed? 

[WestEddy]

16 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

You seem to be implying that the White Sox' drafts were stellar. Let's look at 2nd rounders

2016 - Alec Hansen - brought along slowly, something snapped at AA and he couldn't throw strikes anymore. 
2017 - Gavin Sheets - never developed power. Played out of position in bigs. 
2018 - Steele Walker. Progressing nicely, traded to Texas for Nomar Mazara. 
2019 - Matt Thompson. Walked too many people. Cubs couldn't fix him, either. 
2020 - Jared Kelley. Walk rates too high. 
2021 - Wes Kath. Never developed his hit tool. 

Which of these guys are can't miss major leaguers that Chris Getz personally messed up? 

[WestEddy]

16 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 1990 the Sox have drafted in the top 10, 7 times. Chris Getz was here for 6 of those times. Please tell me how he lacked all this top level talent that the prior regimes had. He had more top level talent handed to him via just the draft itself than anyone had prior to 1990. Additionally he had tons of talent added via trades. 

3rd rounders - 

Alex Call (2016), Luis Gonzalez (2017) and Konner Pilkington (2018) were all traded and made the bigs with other teams. Gonzalez and Pilkington were progressing nicely when traded. Weird how their acquiring teams couldn't unlock that next level in them. Dalquist (2019) and Coffey (2020) are being groomed as bullpen arms. Sean Burke (2021) and Jonathan Cannon (2022) look to be in our rotation this season. Yeah, totally ruined all these guys and didn't develop them. 

Edited December 14 by WestEddy

[WestEddy]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What does anyone of this have to do with what I typed?

You seem to be claiming that Getz was given the best talent in the game, and he failed to "develop" it. Caulfield is pointing out that most of the talent that was shipped out hasn't really been unlocked by other, more superior organizations. 

[RibbieRubarb]

On 12/13/2024 at 6:00 PM, southsider2k5 said:

 But bonus points for the school yard level taunt.

This kid trying to make his bones in the yard taking on the big dog? 😄

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 12/14/2024 at 12:46 PM, WestEddy said:

You seem to be claiming that Getz was given the best talent in the game, and he failed to "develop" it. Caulfield is pointing out that most of the talent that was shipped out hasn't really been unlocked by other, more superior organizations. 

No, I'm pointing out he received more high end talent than the previous regimes that you're blaming for all failures.

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I'm pointing out he received more high end talent than the previous regimes that you're blaming for all failures.

And that high end talent graduated to the bigs. Not sure how that's a failure, but .... okay. 

[RibbieRubarb]

44 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And that high end talent graduated to the bigs. Not sure how that's a failure, but .... okay. 

Again...Lets talk about that production in the bigs and if they were properly developed. That was his title...

We can go round and round on this...His tenure has been less than stellar.

Edited December 16 by RibbieRubarb

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Lets talk about that production in the bigs and if they were properly developed. That was his title...

Then you're going to have to tell me about the special coaching methods where players never regress or get injured for the rest of their careers.