RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 11 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Then you're going to have to tell me about the special coaching methods where players never regress or get injured for the rest of their careers. Sure...Let me tell you about Minnesota farm system and their development crew...the Dodgers, Braves, or A's staff, and other organizations that are consistently developing quality major league talent from first to late round picks. The staffs and personnel other MLB organizations are plucking from to run their higher offices. Simply put...Your assertion that "Oh well, s%*# happens" is an acceptable method to run a team is, truly, a flawed one. Edited December 16 by RibbieRubarb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 17 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said: Again...Lets talk about that production in the bigs and if they were properly developed. That was his title... We can go round and round on this...His tenure has been less than stellar. The blame obviously goes exclusively to those who were fired. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: The blame obviously goes exclusively to those who were fired. And the built-in flaw in that excuse is if Getz had NOTHING to do with the failure of the organization to develop talent, then what qualifications does he have to be its GM now since he wasn't doing anything prior? Or is it a systemic flaw in the organization, from owner down, that keeps rewarding blind loyalty to mediocrity via promotions. Edited December 16 by RibbieRubarb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 4 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said: And the built-in flaw in that excuse is if Getz had NOTHING to do with the failure of the organization to develop talent, then what qualifications does he have to be its GM now since he wasn't doing anything prior? Or is it a systemic flaw in the organization, from owner down, that keeps rewarding blind loyalty to mediocrity via promotions. Funny how the guy who was in a so called "entry level position" was qualified to run an entire baseball franchise's front office operations after all of those failures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Funny how the guy who was in a so called "entry level position" was qualified to run an entire baseball franchise's front office operations after all of those failures. The Forrest Gump of baseball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 11 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said: Sure...Let me tell you about Minnesota farm system and their development crew...the Dodgers, Braves, or A's staff, and other organizations that are consistently developing quality major league talent from first to late round picks. The staffs and personnel other MLB organizations are plucking from to run their higher offices. Simply put...Your assertion that "Oh well, s%*# happens" is an acceptable method to run a team is, truly, a flawed one. Minnesota? Byron Buxton just played 102 games this season. The first time he's played more than 100 since 2017. As you imply, that's a failure of development. Dodgers? Half their pitching staff is out at any given time. They have to sign every single free agent because all of the players they "develop" never were developed to not get injured. Athletics?!? Sean Murphy and AJ Puk are the only positive WAR players they've drafted and put on the field in the last decade. That's sure the core of their next World Series winner!! I guess that's what "consistent" means to these kids, nowadays! LOL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 13 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said: And the built-in flaw in that excuse is if Getz had NOTHING to do with the failure of the organization to develop talent, then what qualifications does he have to be its GM now since he wasn't doing anything prior? Or is it a systemic flaw in the organization, from owner down, that keeps rewarding blind loyalty to mediocrity via promotions. Nobody ever said he had "nothing" to do with previous failures. If companies only hired people who never made mistakes, the entire population would be unemployed. Tell me, if you ever had a sh*t job, where the boss obviously ran a bad organization, do you tell that to every potential employer when you interview? "I worked for a fundamentally flawed organization, and I will continue to make the same mistakes they did, so you probably shouldn't hire me." Because, of course, nobody can ever learn from working in a bad system to be able to make it better. LMFAO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 Imagine your entire internet persona was tied to defending everything about an unqualified GM who just oversaw the worst season in MLB history. Wild times out here on the world wide web. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Imagine your entire internet persona was tied to defending everything about an unqualified GM who just oversaw the worst season in MLB history. Wild times out here on the world wide web. I can't take anything he is saying seriously. Its so flawed and not based on any reality. Its pointless to even debate someone like that Edited December 16 by RibbieRubarb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Imagine your entire internet persona was tied to defending everything about an unqualified GM who just oversaw the worst season in MLB history. Wild times out here on the world wide web. I'm imagining another internet persona who spends his work day scrolling through SoxTalk to hate on the guy who makes regular, logical arguments for patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Nobody ever said he had "nothing" to do with previous failures. If companies only hired people who never made mistakes, the entire population would be unemployed. Tell me, if you ever had a sh*t job, where the boss obviously ran a bad organization, do you tell that to every potential employer when you interview? "I worked for a fundamentally flawed organization, and I will continue to make the same mistakes they did, so you probably shouldn't hire me." Because, of course, nobody can ever learn from working in a bad system to be able to make it better. LMFAO!! I am now convinced you are just @southsider2k5 pulling an "Andy Kaufman" on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 3 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said: I can't take anything he is saying seriously. Its so flawed and not based on any reality. Its pointless to even debate someone like that I'm sure if my logic is so flawed, one day you'll be able to point out how. Until then, I'll just grow old. Then die. Then haunt my house for the ensuing 5 or 6 decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I'm sure if my logic is so flawed, one day you'll be able to point out how. Until then, I'll just grow old. Then die. Then haunt my house for the ensuing 5 or 6 decades. Yep...we are being punk'd. You got us @southsider2k5. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 10 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I'm imagining another internet persona who spends his work day scrolling through SoxTalk to hate on the guy who makes regular, logical arguments for patience. I post pretty sporadically in general but whenever I do stop by I can guarantee I'll see you defending Chris Getz to death. It's wild. Just because you call things logical doesn't make them so. Quick example. I say Getz got and had a lot of high draft picks, compared to other sox player development groups, and you went off to list out 50 playes that were drafted to show how bad they were... then you considered that a dunk. Either you have the reading comprehension of a toddler, or you just can't help but to change narratives and defend Chris at all costs. Edited December 16 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I post pretty sporadically in general but whenever I do stop by I can guarantee I'll see you defending Chris Getz to death. It's wild. Just because you call things logical doesn't make them so. Quick example. I say Getz got and had a lot of high draft picks, compared to other sox gms, and you went off to list out 50 playes that were drafted to show how bad they were... then you considered that a dunk. Either you have the reading comprehension of a toddler, or you just can't help but to change narratives and defend Chris at all costs. 1. The director of player development doesn't make draft picks. 2. If they drafted somebody's 86 year old grandmother, does that mean she can be developed into a top star in the game? I invite you to tell me all the top draft picks Getz was handed, and failed to develop. No, you don't get to mention Andrew Vaughn, who was promoted by the brass after 243 minor league plate appearances. You don't get to mention Garrett Crochet who completely skipped the minors. I took the time to give you a thorough answer. Give me an example of anything besides how angry and lazy you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 9 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Minnesota? Byron Buxton just played 102 games this season. The first time he's played more than 100 since 2017. As you imply, that's a failure of development. Dodgers? Half their pitching staff is out at any given time. They have to sign every single free agent because all of the players they "develop" never were developed to not get injured. Athletics?!? Sean Murphy and AJ Puk are the only positive WAR players they've drafted and put on the field in the last decade. That's sure the core of their next World Series winner!! I guess that's what "consistent" means to these kids, nowadays! LOL. This is where your argument breaks down. The point, many, are trying to make is that quality teams have a pipeline of talent that usually helps support, or in some cases, carry a roster. It's not just about first round talent, and it starts from an organizational philosophy. The Twins were brought up, and for some reason you only brought up Byron Buxton. Some of the players you didn't mention were guys like Max Kepler, Jhoan Duran, Jorge Polanco, Miguel Sano, Luis Arraez, Jose Berrios...quality MLB players that were developed by the Twins. Let's stay in the division with Cleveland. Steven Kwan, Shane Bieber, Aaron Civale, Tanner Bibee, Cade Smith...etc...a pipeline of players grown in the organization that are contributors to the ML team. We can keep doing this with the Braves, Brewers, etc....Now try doing it with the White Sox. No one is saying Chris Getz is solely to blame. But he also shares some of the blame, and yet he received a fairly large promotion for his efforts. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) On 12/14/2024 at 12:46 PM, WestEddy said: You seem to be claiming that Getz was given the best talent in the game, and he failed to "develop" it. Caulfield is pointing out that most of the talent that was shipped out hasn't really been unlocked by other, more superior organizations. Couldn’t that also just mean the Sox kept drafting a bunch of busts? Guys that never were going to make it anywhere? Edited December 16 by WhiteSox2023 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 5 minutes ago, Tony said: This is where your argument breaks down. The point, many, are trying to make is that quality teams have a pipeline of talent that usually helps support, or in some cases, carry a roster. It's not just about first round talent, and it starts from an organizational philosophy. The Twins were brought up, and for some reason you only brought up Byron Buxton. Some of the players you didn't mention were guys like Max Kepler, Jhoan Duran, Jorge Polanco, Miguel Sano, Luis Arraez, Jose Berrios...quality MLB players that were developed by the Twins. Let's stay in the division with Cleveland. Steven Kwan, Shane Bieber, Aaron Civale, Tanner Bibee, Cade Smith...etc...a pipeline of players grown in the organization that are contributors to the ML team. We can keep doing this with the Braves, Brewers, etc....Now try doing it with the White Sox. No one is saying Chris Getz is solely to blame. But he also shares some of the blame, and yet he received a fairly large promotion for his efforts. So tell me, do the directors of player development also run the draft and international scouting for those organizations? That's the thing you guys keep tap dancing around. Hostetler was so great at drafting that he was relieved of his duties by the previous GM. Marco Paddy was so great that he just got fired this year. I laid out a pretty simple argument. The White Sox minor league system was woefully behind the rest of baseball in all new development tools and methods. AGAIN - weird that as soon as Getz became GM, he started updating those tools, methods and areas. Are you all saying that he had state of the art tools, and didn't use them so he could get everyone fired and become GM? That's silly. I'm guessing he did what he could with what he had. I'm also guessing that player development isn't all that difficult. That's why it's basically entry level. The director isn't coaching or teaching the players. He's not drafting or signing free agents. He administrates. The high level talent they had, were promoted. Are you saying that John Parke and Blake Battenfield were HOF staff aces that just weren't developed properly? Weird how the same guy did develop guys like Davis Martin, or Jonathan Cannon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 On 12/14/2024 at 12:46 PM, WestEddy said: You seem to be claiming that Getz was given the best talent in the game, and he failed to "develop" it. Caulfield is pointing out that most of the talent that was shipped out hasn't really been unlocked by other, more superior organizations. Development windows aren't some endless period of time in which some new team can tap into what you once had. Baseball is a game that is predicated 99% on your mental makeup and about 1% on your talent. Everyone at this level is incredibly talented, and those that continue to grow/learn/develop and deal with failure are the ones that come out on top. When you fail and/or do not receive adequate development, that is lost development It's not something that can be re-found or made up again. It's similar to Jake Burger losing 3 years of development time - being a part of the White Sox developmental plan over the past decade was as damaging to a players career as tearing your Achilles twice. Crazy to think about, but that's the truth. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 22 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So tell me, do the directors of player development also run the draft and international scouting for those organizations? That's the thing you guys keep tap dancing around. Hostetler was so great at drafting that he was relieved of his duties by the previous GM. Marco Paddy was so great that he just got fired this year. I laid out a pretty simple argument. The White Sox minor league system was woefully behind the rest of baseball in all new development tools and methods. AGAIN - weird that as soon as Getz became GM, he started updating those tools, methods and areas. Are you all saying that he had state of the art tools, and didn't use them so he could get everyone fired and become GM? That's silly. I'm guessing he did what he could with what he had. I'm also guessing that player development isn't all that difficult. That's why it's basically entry level. The director isn't coaching or teaching the players. He's not drafting or signing free agents. He administrates. The high level talent they had, were promoted. Are you saying that John Parke and Blake Battenfield were HOF staff aces that just weren't developed properly? Weird how the same guy did develop guys like Davis Martin, or Jonathan Cannon. I learned very early on in my career that when your failures are always someone else's fault, you're as much of the problem as the thing you deem to be at fault. It's true that Chris might (subjective here) have gotten subpar talent because of poor people overhead him, but he did literally nothing with it. It's not that he eeked out some fringe cases or transformed something of meaning, and more importantly it's not as if these players the Sox acquired were huge reaches. By most accounts, the marquee picks the Sox had were drafted in the slot they were expected to go. By trade I'm essentially a financial auditor. I go into broken situations with bad process, bad financials, and poor governance and I fix the unfixable. One thing in common in all these places I go is that they have bad leadership. Staff, in a lot of cases are very strong, but their guides are lost and have put them in positions to fail. Chris Getz was a guide with the White Sox, he wasn't a member of the staff. He had a chance to influence and he didn't get it done. He failed. Your job as a leader is to influence and drive positive change - regardless of the obstacles in front of you, that's your job. The staff's job is to execute that vision. Chris vision as executed by his staff has led to the least talented team in the history of the franchise. Was it just Chris' vision? No, but he's the ONLY one left here to blame and it's not because he was a good guide or leader. Analytics, for example, are a tool you can implement on your own. It's inexpensive, easily scalable, and highly personalizeable. Chris Getz himself could have established a framework for such a platform in the minors, but of course he never did because he never did anything down there. Edited December 16 by Look at Ray Ray Run 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Development windows aren't some endless period of time in which some new team can tap into what you once had. Baseball is a game that is predicated 99% on your mental makeup and about 1% on your talent. Everyone at this level is incredibly talented, and those that continue to grow/learn/develop and deal with failure are the ones that come out on top. When you fail and/or do not receive adequate development, that is lost development It's not something that can be re-found or made up again. It's similar to Jake Burger losing 3 years of development time - being a part of the White Sox developmental plan over the past decade was as damaging to a players career as tearing your Achilles twice. Crazy to think about, but that's the truth. Still, you're mocking me for listing out the first 3 picks of each draft around Getz's tenure as director. Which of those players did he not oversee the proper development of? Did he step in and tell coaches to coach him wrong? If nobody had iPads to look up trends and stats on who they're facing, the rest of the league was already ahead of them. If they weren't investing in sleep and nutrition management, they were behind the rest of the league. One of the mods, here is mocking me for suggesting that a previous leadership group shot down new strategies (which had often been suggested by many "insiders"), and Getz got what he wanted by just "asking for it, LOL". Which, yeah, that's how it happens. The GM tells the owner that even though we didn't do this before, we have to. And then the owner okays it. Anyway, did Getz personally rush Madrigal, Crochet and Vaughn? No, the GM or VP did. Did Getz teach Eloy, Yoan, Robert, and Burger that it's better to get injured and not play? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 12 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So tell me, do the directors of player development also run the draft and international scouting for those organizations? That's the thing you guys keep tap dancing around. Hostetler was so great at drafting that he was relieved of his duties by the previous GM. Marco Paddy was so great that he just got fired this year. I laid out a pretty simple argument. The White Sox minor league system was woefully behind the rest of baseball in all new development tools and methods. AGAIN - weird that as soon as Getz became GM, he started updating those tools, methods and areas. Are you all saying that he had state of the art tools, and didn't use them so he could get everyone fired and become GM? That's silly. I'm guessing he did what he could with what he had. I'm also guessing that player development isn't all that difficult. That's why it's basically entry level. The director isn't coaching or teaching the players. He's not drafting or signing free agents. He administrates. The high level talent they had, were promoted. Are you saying that John Parke and Blake Battenfield were HOF staff aces that just weren't developed properly? Weird how the same guy did develop guys like Davis Martin, or Jonathan Cannon. But here is the argument you haven't answered. You made the statement: "The White Sox minor league system was woefully behind the rest of baseball in all new development tools and methods." According to his bio, when he was named President of Baseball Operations for the White Sox, this is how it read: Quote He served as director of player development with the White Sox from 2017 to 2020 before being promoted to assistant general manager in 2021. For the past seven seasons, Getz has handled the day-to-day operations of the minor-league system, including individual development plans for every player, player evaluation, personnel and staff decisions, contract negotiations, affiliate relations and overseeing the Dominican Academy. So even assuming he realized he needed those things and they were not available, given that he spent seven years in the White Sox front office before being promoted to President of Baseball Operations...What was he being judged on? According to you, his job was was "basically entry level" (which is another ringing endorsement for being given the President of Baseball Ops job) so what earned him the large promotion? You can't seem to cite any large success stories that you believe Getz was responsible for (again, his job, according to you was "basically entry level" in what he was doing...so why should fans believe he is the right guy to oversee the major league team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 1 hour ago, Tony said: But here is the argument you haven't answered. You made the statement: "The White Sox minor league system was woefully behind the rest of baseball in all new development tools and methods." According to his bio, when he was named President of Baseball Operations for the White Sox, this is how it read: So even assuming he realized he needed those things and they were not available, given that he spent seven years in the White Sox front office before being promoted to President of Baseball Operations...What was he being judged on? According to you, his job was was "basically entry level" (which is another ringing endorsement for being given the President of Baseball Ops job) so what earned him the large promotion? You can't seem to cite any large success stories that you believe Getz was responsible for (again, his job, according to you was "basically entry level" in what he was doing...so why should fans believe he is the right guy to oversee the major league team? The circular logic is just wild. Everyone else failed. We never drafted anyone who could be developed, including multiple consensus top 10 picks, and every single draft pick after. All of the players we acquired from other organizations were either un developable, or Chris didn't have enough time with them... but the guy who had zero involvement in any of those failures learned them all well enough to know how to fix them all, mostly because he was the only one to ever ask for resources, and the notoriously high spending JR w as so impressed he threw everything at Chris and gave him everything he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: I'm sure if my logic is so flawed, one day you'll be able to point out how. Until then, I'll just grow old. Then die. Then haunt my house for the ensuing 5 or 6 decades. Beetlejuice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted December 16 Share Posted December 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I learned very early on in my career that when your failures are always someone else's fault, you're as much of the problem as the thing you deem to be at fault. It's true that Chris might (subjective here) have gotten subpar talent because of poor people overhead him, but he did literally nothing with it. It's not that he eeked out some fringe cases or transformed something of meaning, and more importantly it's not as if these players the Sox acquired were huge reaches. By most accounts, the marquee picks the Sox had were drafted in the slot they were expected to go. By trade I'm essentially a financial auditor. I go into broken situations with bad process, bad financials, and poor governance and I fix the unfixable. One thing in common in all these places I go is that they have bad leadership. Staff, in a lot of cases are very strong, but their guides are lost and have put them in positions to fail. Chris Getz was a guide with the White Sox, he wasn't a member of the staff. He had a chance to influence and he didn't get it done. He failed. Your job as a leader is to influence and drive positive change - regardless of the obstacles in front of you, that's your job. The staff's job is to execute that vision. Chris vision as executed by his staff has led to the least talented team in the history of the franchise. Was it just Chris' vision? No, but he's the ONLY one left here to blame and it's not because he was a good guide or leader. Chris Getz isn't blaming anybody. I believe the Sox' structure was such that higher ups were picking managers and coaches based on friendships and nepotism. They were so behind the game that sure, if they got a good 1st round pick, the guy could almost develop himself. I'm not claiming he was a good "leader". But he does seem to have communicated the dysfunction to JR in such a way that he was the last man standing, and was handed the keys. I wasn't rooting for him to be GM. I was actually disappointed, too. But he is GM, and I can either root for his moves to work, or b**** about every single one before it's made. I choose the latter. Thanks for explaining your rationale. I do appreciate that. EDIT*** oops. I choose the former. Edited December 16 by WestEddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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