caulfield12 Posted Wednesday at 03:23 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:23 AM 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Why does it need to be cutting edge? Why can't somebody pounding some fundamentals into JR's skull be "cutting edge"? As Ray Ray mentioned, let's see evidence of some real "innovation" here at some point. It's easy enough to copy other teams, and utilize the same equipment and even statistical analysis/models that they have created. Where's the niche/competitive advantage going to come from? Cubans? Not anymore. Keeping players healthier? Not anymore. So it has to be pitching (and left-handed pitching, specifically)...as it's certainly not positional prospect development, unless you just start counting all the players brought in from other organizations as "success." The problem with that has always been that there was no cohesiveness with so many players coming in with training in numerous outside ways of doing things in their original organizations...but WHAT exactly is the "White Sox Way," so to speak? Last year, it was supposed to be bringing in young players who weren't already "corrupted" by the big league clubhouse who would play winning baseball, defend, fundamentally-sound, ability to execute and play small ball due to the lack of big boppers in the line-up that could pound the opposition into submission, winning the close games due to starting pitching (obviously the bullpen was a MASSIVE weakness after tens of millions were previously invested into veteran bullpen guys). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted Wednesday at 03:28 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:28 AM 6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: As Ray Ray mentioned, let's see evidence of some real "innovation" here at some point. It's easy enough to copy other teams, and utilize the same equipment and even statistical analysis/models that they have created. Where's the niche/competitive advantage going to come from? Cubans? Not anymore. Keeping players healthier? Not anymore. So it has to be pitching (and left-handed pitching, specifically)...as it's certainly not positional prospect development, unless you just start counting all the players brought in from other organizations as "success." The problem with that has always been that there was no cohesiveness with so many players coming in with training in numerous outside ways of doing things in their original organizations...but WHAT exactly is the "White Sox Way," so to speak? Last year, it was supposed to be bringing in young players who weren't already "corrupted" by the big league clubhouse who would play winning baseball, defend, fundamentally-sound, ability to execute and play small ball due to the lack of big boppers in the line-up that could pound the opposition into submission, winning the close games due to starting pitching (obviously the bullpen was a MASSIVE weakness after tens of millions were previously invested into veteran bullpen guys). Somebody just wrote an article about how the next frontier is "empathy". The biggest advancement in college sports is sports psychology. Venable has a firm grasp on that concept. Seriously, stats analysis is tapped out. Sleep and nutrition adjustments are pretty finite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted Wednesday at 03:35 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:35 AM 25 minutes ago, WestEddy said: My post conveys my feeling that I'm tired of posting Getz's successes, because the top players who made the bigs developed themselves, whereas the ones who failed, failed because of Chris Getz. That doesn't make sense to me. That's why I argue. These guys forsook an advanced metrics department, took years to think about hitting and pitching labs. Housing, nutrition and sleep monitoring were an afterthought. I'm really befuddled why everyone is expending so much energy to pin all of this in Chris Getz. Yes, he was part of the previous regime. No, he didn't quit. Sure, maybe he shrugged his shoulders and kept notes. I don't want all the perpetrators to burn in the fiery cauldrons of hell. If Getz is bringing in competent people to get s%*# in order, I'm all for it. I'm 61. I've got 20-25 more years of baseball fandom in me. I'm not going to spend it furious that the guy making good changes didn't earn his job. I am amazed someone would spent this much time trying to sanctify Chris Getz, but here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted Wednesday at 03:40 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:40 AM 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I am amazed someone would spent this much time trying to sanctify Chris Getz, but here we are. My brain hurts when you guys are waterboarding logic like you do. That's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyle Moooton Posted Wednesday at 03:46 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:46 AM Jesus Christ you guys are at it in this thread too? Just bang each other already…this will they/wont they stuff is getting annoying. 1 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted Wednesday at 05:01 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 05:01 AM 1 hour ago, Lyle Moooton said: Jesus Christ you guys are at it in this thread too? Just bang each other already…this will they/wont they stuff is getting annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted Wednesday at 09:52 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 09:52 AM 12 hours ago, Balta1701 said: How about this - the last time I thought player development did its job was in the 2000s. In the early half, the heart of a World Series team was developed in the White Sox system, and you had unexpected successes like Crede, who was a 5th round draft pick, or Brandon McCarthy from the 7th. You can't name a 5th round draft pick who became a success for the White Sox in the last 15 years, because around the time Hahn took over it just plain stopped happening. In the latter half, a rebuilt rotation including Danks and Floyd came up out of that system, at least partially. That isn't to say the White Sox didn't have talent in their system or get talented guys in later rounds. Despite giving a way a lot of draft picks and never spending their international funds, they managed to have guys like Semien and Tatis in their system who had tons upon tons of talent. The guys they had in their system actually out-performed their system rankings, by a lot. However, by 2014, under Hahn, when those guys were coming up, the system had reached a point where they couldn't recognize those guys were good or help those guys build anything. Marcus Semien was a 6th round pick in the White Sox's system, he's damn near been an MVP caliber player, but the White Sox's system pigeonholed him as a utility man. As soon as he went somewhere else, he struggled because he hadn't gotten quality coaching the entire way up, but after a year of work and a couple of years experience, bang here's a 7-WAR player. That story has continued to repeat itself. Normal teams get good players in rounds other than round 1. It's not every one, but guys come up and contribute. Occasionally you should still find a Spencer Strider. You can't name a contributor for the White Sox outside the first round probably since Hahn took over, and what did they wind up doing as a consequence? Overspending on utility guys, overspending on relievers - the guys you often can find in middle rounds. I appreciate this answer mainly because you gave it a lot of thought and did research . You didn't just shoot from the hip. I always wished I knew exactly how Tatis got traded . In my head it's like Hahn made the decision on his own but I keep thinking it doesn't or shouldn't happen that way .Like someone in player development should have been notified who strongly objected before the trade was completed or something Hahn could have seen in a scouting report that said highest upside of anyone we've ever signed internationally. I'm just not sure what Paddy actually thought about him or if he would have strongly objected. I also wonder with the retooling of the system and staffs with the ex Seal in charge of making sure all departments are communicating and run efficiently if that could safeguard getting rid of talented players who hadn't even played stateside yet or at least make it more collaborative. Will have to see how things play out and it's still hard to judge when you just can't know what restrictions you're getting from Reinsdorf which is always a huge monkey wrench in anything related to the job of any GM or Director of Player Development or International signings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted Wednesday at 01:31 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 01:31 PM 3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I appreciate this answer mainly because you gave it a lot of thought and did research . You didn't just shoot from the hip. I always wished I knew exactly how Tatis got traded . In my head it's like Hahn made the decision on his own but I keep thinking it doesn't or shouldn't happen that way .Like someone in player development should have been notified who strongly objected before the trade was completed or something Hahn could have seen in a scouting report that said highest upside of anyone we've ever signed internationally. I'm just not sure what Paddy actually thought about him or if he would have strongly objected. I also wonder with the retooling of the system and staffs with the ex Seal in charge of making sure all departments are communicating and run efficiently if that could safeguard getting rid of talented players who hadn't even played stateside yet or at least make it more collaborative. Will have to see how things play out and it's still hard to judge when you just can't know what restrictions you're getting from Reinsdorf which is always a huge monkey wrench in anything related to the job of any GM or Director of Player Development or International signings. Tatis' father was the main one who warned the White Sox they were making a mistake and were going to regret it. This was also during the time he had a 2+ inch growth spurt while also adding speed and athletic is my...although it can be argued I suppose that was related to PEDs or perhaps the Sox were just caught unawares with Preller having 5-6 Latin scouts all over him and later in Arizona. Heck, Keith Law was also in the know there because he made a massive jump on the prospect lists and Law was the first to promote him as one of the top prospects in the game so quickly after his MiLB debut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted Wednesday at 05:12 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 05:12 PM Nice article on the future of White Sox international scouting https://soxmachine.com/2024/12/david-keller-talks-about-the-future-of-white-sox-international-amateur-scouting/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted Friday at 04:27 AM Share Posted Friday at 04:27 AM On 12/18/2024 at 9:12 AM, WestEddy said: Nice article on the future of White Sox international scouting https://soxmachine.com/2024/12/david-keller-talks-about-the-future-of-white-sox-international-amateur-scouting/ I like this too.Its educational if you have any interest at all in some the new rhetoric of believing in Getz vision and the new voice of international amateur scouting and you're able to read the whole thing since you have to pay to read more than the 1st couple of paragraphs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted Friday at 04:53 AM Share Posted Friday at 04:53 AM (edited) On 12/17/2024 at 6:35 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The Director of Player Development absolutely would be allocating budget and resources within his department. That's what Directors do, Cali. You're right in that Getz wasn't on the field day to day. It was his job to guide those who were though, and to give them resources to succeed. The build a consistent message and platform from rookie ball through AAA - should I cite the articles where disjointment in the White Sox minor leagues are cited? I've given two examples in this very thread of low-cost solutions and advancements Chris Getz could have implemented in his role, regardless of the scope of his job. The highlighted portion is how you'd judge a Director of Player Development, imo, but you've somehow made those things not his fault at all. Your post is actually worse than WestEddy, because your entire argument is "we can't judge him because we didn't know his day to day job duties and we've never done that job ourselves." What did Chris Getz improve about the minor league operation while he was in charge? Can you name a single thing? All I've read the past four years is how archaic and inconsistent they are from level to level. He can allocate the budget he gets but what is the budget he gets compared to other teams ? Questions like this must always be asked if you think you are fair. Not just compared to the big spenders but compared to teams who also are known not to spend much. The problem with the international amateur scouting has been around as long as Reinsdorfs been owner except for the brief time they got Robert and Abreu it's sucked. It's like the the DR doesn't exist for the Sox even though it's been providing top players to baseball for the entirety of Reinsdorfs ownership. I admit I'm as ignorant as the next guy which is why I feel I can't judge .Others like yourself feel you have everything you need. Since I have no say in the matter of what goes on I don't torture myself blaming the puppets under Reinsdorf .They are all handicapped likeany others do the same jobs in other organizations. When you do see international success stories on other teams in the Sox financial stratosphere do you ask yourself why can they get those players and we can't ? We almost had one with Tatis but someone snatched him away before most with the Sox even knew what they had. That's just sad. I'm more likely to think Getz will be a better GM than his previous job. We already see a series of hires related to infrastruture that most of the talking heads reporting and offering media related opinion in Chicago never judge these seem impress Getz has gone outside the organization and hired people that appear to be qualified. I have no idea how it'll turn out. Seems like a long term project and things change all the time. Edited Friday at 05:29 AM by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted Friday at 05:23 AM Share Posted Friday at 05:23 AM 22 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: He can allocate the budget he gets but what is the budget he gets compared to other teams ? Questions like this must always be asked if you think you are fair. Not just compared to the big spenders but compared to teams who also are known not to spend much. The problem with the international amateur scouting has been around as long as Reinsdorfs been owner except for the brief time they got Robert and Abreu. It's like the the DR doesn't exist for the Sox even though it's been providing top players to baseball for the entirety of Reinsdorfs ownership. I admit I'm as ignorant as the next guy which is why I feel I can't judge .Others like yourself feel you have everything you need. Since I have no say in the matter of what goes on I don't torture myself blaming the puppets under Reinsdorf .They are all handicapped likeany others do the same jobs in other organizations. When you do see international success stories on other teams in the Sox financial stratosphere do you ask yourself why can they get those players and we can't ? We almost had one with Tatis but someone snatched him away before most with the Sox even knew what they had. That's just sad. I'm more likely to think Getz will be a better GM than his previous job. We already see a series of hires related to infrastruture that most of the talking heads reporting and offering media related opinion in Chicago never judge these seem impress Getz has gone outside the organization and hired people that appear to be qualified. I have no idea how it'll turn out. Seems like a long term project and things change all the time. I wanted DESPERATELY to believe in Norge Vera, he made all the Top 10 lists for a couple of years, but just never put it together. Then there was that odd Yosimar Cousin Cuban FA signing. Was not in the least bit surprised by Cespedes, Yogurt Sanchez and all of the LA position players disappearing into the ether. Tatis' brother was a spectacular disaster and still pretty skeptical about Juan Uribe, Jr.,(https://www.milb.com/player/juan-uribe-808322, he's already out of the organization, it seems) basically anyone related to a famous MLB father or former White Sox player/front office official. Also seems the shine is already off that big Venezuelan 3B they signed for $2.5 million or whatever in the last couple of cycles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted Friday at 12:48 PM Share Posted Friday at 12:48 PM 7 hours ago, caulfield12 said: I wanted DESPERATELY to believe in Norge Vera, he made all the Top 10 lists for a couple of years, but just never put it together. Then there was that odd Yosimar Cousin Cuban FA signing. Was not in the least bit surprised by Cespedes, Yogurt Sanchez and all of the LA position players disappearing into the ether. Tatis' brother was a spectacular disaster and still pretty skeptical about Juan Uribe, Jr.,(https://www.milb.com/player/juan-uribe-808322, he's already out of the organization, it seems) basically anyone related to a famous MLB father or former White Sox player/front office official. Also seems the shine is already off that big Venezuelan 3B they signed for $2.5 million or whatever in the last couple of cycles. Is it possible he peaked before the DSL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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