State of the farm system

[Bob Sacamano]

18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

9 months in? Give it time? The White Sox are 102-222 in the last two years. This isn't a video game simulation, the White Sox are destroying their credibility throughout all of baseball.

I don't see any reason why they can't rebuild and add short-term (1-3 years) type deals in FA. You at least field a somewhat MLB team and have guys that can either be extended later or traded at some point for more young pieces.

Although I guess the time for that would have been last year after the #10 pick was a lock.

[TaylorStSox]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I can't just buy that conveniently he was the only one in this organization who knew what he was doing, couldn't do anything to fix it, but now can fix everything without any issue.  That's ridiculously pollyanna. 

Thankfully, literally nobody said any of those things.

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Destroying their credibility? What does that even mean?

Especially since any outside takes I read say that Getz is doing the hard work, and will be fine.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Orioles were 131-253 in the first 3 seasons under Mike Elias as GM. Over a 4 year period from 2018-2021 they were 178-368. It takes time for a deep rebuild to turnaround even when you supposedly have one of the best GMs in the sport.

Now do the 100 other stretches like this in baseball history and their next 3+ year outcomes.

Also add that the Orioles haven't won anything... but you're right they were terrible and so they hired, you said it, one of the best GM's in the sport to turn it around.

Do you see all the challenges there? The White Sox missed the last part.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Thankfully, literally nobody said any of those things.

When you read what is being said here, it absolutely is, even though the people apparently above and below him are the problems, but somehow he isn't.  Getz is just as much of the problem as a Marco Paddy is.  If Getz didn't get anywhere because he didn't have enough control, why doesn't that excuse work for Paddy who was working under the same structure?  Or the scouts who had their work over ruled above them supposedly?  If Chris not being able to fire people before is the problem, why are we assuming that even though we just watched Jerry refuse to fire people until their contracts were pretty much done, that Chris will be able to realize that he needs to fire other people later to fix other problems? The ridiculous amount of weight being put into we have this all figured out and all of those old problems are gone without any actual indication to show that they are ACTUALLY gone now is absurd.  You can choose to believe whatever you are fed, but until there are actually results that show differently, I am going to believe this franchise's history, over some selective printing of only the happy things.

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Now do the 100 other stretches like this in baseball history and their next 3+ year outcomes.

Also add that the Orioles haven't won anything... but you're right they were terrible and so they hired, you said it, one of the best GM's in the sport to turn it around.

Do you see all the challenges there? The White Sox missed the last part.

You don't know that, yet. And "the best GM in the sport" seems to have missed the part about acquiring top rotational starters. Getz could very well go down the same path, hugging prospects, and trying to stock every position from within. But he's not there, yet. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

20 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Destroying their credibility? What does that even mean?

It means that it won't be major leaguers wives, like Wheelers, that cause players to sign elsewhere for less money. It'll be their own peers experiences and commentary.

It means minor leaguers will dread being drafted by your organization and seek outside help to better their careers: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3404269/2022/07/13/white-sox-minor-league-housing/

It means a city will laugh at your request for any accommodation because you saw a viewer-base decline so much that the number one cable provider in the city doesn't blink an eye over losing your 162 telecasts during a slow tv period.

It means people might even start chattering about the team being moved from it's current hopeless location.

If you don't know what losing credibility looks like, I'd ask what you've been watching happen over the past three years.

 

Edited Friday at 07:12 PM by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You don't know that, yet. And "the best GM in the sport" seems to have missed the part about acquiring top rotational starters. Getz could very well go down the same path, hugging prospects, and trying to stock every position from within. But he's not there, yet. 

I never called Mike Elias the best GM in the sport, for the record. He's fine, nothing special but certainly better than Getz.

[Quin]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Orioles were 131-253 in the first 3 seasons under Mike Elias as GM. Over a 4 year period from 2018-2021 they were 178-368. It takes time for a deep rebuild to turnaround even when you supposedly have one of the best GMs in the sport.

This is ignoring that the draft system has changed entirely in that time with the lotto and the Orioles get those stupid competitive balance picks.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Now do the 100 other stretches like this in baseball history and their next 3+ year outcomes.

Also add that the Orioles haven't won anything... but you're right they were terrible and so they hired, you said it, one of the best GM's in the sport to turn it around.

Do you see all the challenges there? The White Sox missed the last part.

Would you have said Mike Elias is one of the best GMs in 2021? I’m guessing no based on your commentary here. Also, I’m not sure he’s one now because like you said he hasn’t won anything. The reality is Jerry won’t live forever so a change in ownership will happen in the near future. Whether that is 2 years or 10 years from now I don’t know but it’s inevitable. In the meantime, keep building up the farm system and improving on the fringes within the organization until a new owner takes the rein that is willing to spend money like recently happened with the Mets and Orioles.

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

When you read what is being said here, it absolutely is, even though the people apparently above and below him are the problems, but somehow he isn't.  Getz is just as much of the problem as a Marco Paddy is.  If Getz didn't get anywhere because he didn't have enough control, why doesn't that excuse work for Paddy who was working under the same structure?  Or the scouts who had their work over ruled above them supposedly?  If Chris not being able to fire people before is the problem, why are we assuming that even though we just watched Jerry refuse to fire people until their contracts were pretty much done, that Chris will be able to realize that he needs to fire other people later to fix other problems? The ridiculous amount of weight being put into we have this all figured out and all of those old problems are gone without any actual indication to show that they are ACTUALLY gone now is absurd.  You can choose to believe whatever you are fed, but until there are actually results that show differently, I am going to believe this franchise's history, over some selective printing of only the happy things.

It did. He kept his job for a full year. I'd guess Reinsdorf said to let his contract run out, but I couldn't imagine Getz not giving him any guidelines to see if he could be refocused. 

Hostetler worked under Hahn, and Hahn replaced him. Getz inherited Shirley, and kept him. This seems to not align with your argument. 

It feels like you're being purposefully obtuse to pretend to not understand that it's normal in an organization for the head of an area to be fired, a person under them to get promoted, and for that person to reevaluate all of their peers. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 minutes ago, Quin said:

This is ignoring that the draft system has changed entirely in that time with the lotto and the Orioles get those stupid competitive balance picks.

There’s no doubt that helps, which is why the Sox rebuild is likely to take longer than theirs without a change in ownership. Still, Sox are a lock for a top 10 pick for 4-5 consecutive years. Should be able to do some damage with that.

[Chicago White Sox]

Elias may be a prospect hugging b****, but pretending he isn’t one of the best GMs in baseball is pure insanity.

[Quin]

16 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

There’s no doubt that helps, which is why the Sox rebuild is likely to take longer than theirs without a change in ownership. Still, Sox are a lock for a top 10 pick for 4-5 consecutive years. Should be able to do some damage with that.

This implies that the Sox will be the worst team in the league for at least 4 years (the only way they can be a lock for a Top 10 pick is if they are the worst team). If that's the case, Getz, the entire FO and coaching staff should be neutron purged and we're back to square one, seeing what prospect package the new GM can get for Schultz.

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Elias may be a prospect hugging b****, but pretending he isn’t one of the best GMs in baseball is pure insanity.

He is! He also had/has more tools at his disposal than Getz, who is not on his level. Combine those two factors and we should not be going "well if the Orioles did it, we can do it!"

[greg775]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

I'm sorry, this is third after betting homes and TA at catcher.

Ask any true baseball mind if TA was a good shortstop defensively or ever projected to be a good SS. He was very erratic. His future was somewhere else. Outfield? Not enuf pop. 3B or 2B? Don't do it for me. Catcher? Why not? The arm baby, the arm was there.

Edited Friday at 07:44 PM by greg775

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Ask any true baseball mind if TA was a good shortstop defensively or ever projected to be a good SS. His future was somewhere else. Outfield? Not enuf pop. 3B or 2B? Don't do it for me. Catcher? Why not? The arm baby, the arm was there.

Greg: Hates the game changing in any way, shape or form.
Also Greg: This bullshit.

[TaylorStSox]

40 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It means that it won't be major leaguers wives, like Wheelers, that cause players to sign elsewhere for less money. It'll be their own peers experiences and commentary.

It means minor leaguers will dread being drafted by your organization and seek outside help to better their careers: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3404269/2022/07/13/white-sox-minor-league-housing/

It means a city will laugh at your request for any accommodation because you saw a viewer-base decline so much that the number one cable provider in the city doesn't blink an eye over losing your 162 telecasts during a slow tv period.

It means people might even start chattering about the team being moved from it's current hopeless location.

If you don't know what losing credibility looks like, I'd ask what you've been watching happen over the past three years.

 

This is really, really dramatic. Free agents don't sign with the Sox anyway, and if no other city wants the franchise, that's a good thing. In reality, the Sox could lose 140 games next year and still be more attractive than at least 10 other franchises in baseball.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

One similarity between this rebuild and the last one is all the white sox bloggers and insiders are telling us how "this time, these guys are smart.... these guys are doing it differently!"

 

That's because "rebuild-niks" tend to be popular message board posters. There's a certain type of fan who loves tank jobs and rebuilds because they involve the acquisition of mysterious new bodies who nobody has seen yet, thus have not seen their flaws, yet. I hate rebuilds. I miss the days in the winter we already had a 'decent to good' roster and wondered if we'd tinker a bit and make one good trade or sign a good bullpen piece or something to add to an already .550ish team. Now? All we got are prospects to discuss while staring at 95-110 losses. It's not the right way to do things. Give me a real roster, now, please!

Even though Lip tells me it has to be this way cause of Jerry, I can dream of the commish intervening and telling the White Sox/Jerry they are penalized for this ruining of a once proud franchise.

Edited Friday at 07:53 PM by greg775

[greg775]

21 minutes ago, Quin said:

Greg: Hates the game changing in any way, shape or form.
Also Greg: This bullshit.

I simply didn't see TA as the Sox future reliable shortstop. He appeared to be a guy who could succeed at the plate thus rather than just stick him at 2B I came up with catcher. We'll never know but his body frame and arm did not disqualify him from catching and hitting .280 with 20 homers or so.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I simply didn't see TA as the Sox future reliable shortstop. He appeared to be a guy who could succeed at the plate thus rather than just stick him at 2B I came up with catcher. We'll never know but his body frame and arm did not disqualify him from catching and hitting .280 with 20 homers or so.

He would have been a great catcher. Probably would have even stayed healthy, and with the foul balls to the groin, probably would have had a few less side pieces.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

It did. He kept his job for a full year. I'd guess Reinsdorf said to let his contract run out, but I couldn't imagine Getz not giving him any guidelines to see if he could be refocused. 

Hostetler worked under Hahn, and Hahn replaced him. Getz inherited Shirley, and kept him. This seems to not align with your argument. 

It feels like you're being purposefully obtuse to pretend to not understand that it's normal in an organization for the head of an area to be fired, a person under them to get promoted, and for that person to reevaluate all of their peers. 

It's absolutely normal to fire people who massively fail at their jobs, which is why it is so absurd to deal with the idea that in the midst of this dumpster fire that Chris Getz was actually promoted, and now has every excuse on the planet being made for him as to why everyone else was the problem, except him.

[southsider2k5]

38 minutes ago, greg775 said:

That's because "rebuild-niks" tend to be popular message board posters. There's a certain type of fan who loves tank jobs and rebuilds because they involve the acquisition of mysterious new bodies who nobody has seen yet, thus have not seen their flaws, yet. I hate rebuilds. I miss the days in the winter we already had a 'decent to good' roster and wondered if we'd tinker a bit and make one good trade or sign a good bullpen piece or something to add to an already .550ish team. Now? All we got are prospects to discuss while staring at 95-110 losses. It's not the right way to do things. Give me a real roster, now, please!

Even though Lip tells me it has to be this way cause of Jerry, I can dream of the commish intervening and telling the White Sox/Jerry they are penalized for this ruining of a once proud franchise.

And Cub fans enjoy seeing the Sox lose 121 games with no path to respectability.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's absolutely normal to fire people who massively fail at their jobs, which is why it is so absurd to deal with the idea that in the midst of this dumpster fire that Chris Getz was actually promoted, and now has every excuse on the planet being made for him as to why everyone else was the problem, except him.

It's history repeating itself. Remember when the Sox failure before the failed rebuild was everyone else's fault but Rick Hahn's?

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's absolutely normal to fire people who massively fail at their jobs, which is why it is so absurd to deal with the idea that in the midst of this dumpster fire that Chris Getz was actually promoted, and now has every excuse on the planet being made for him as to why everyone else was the problem, except him.

It's normal to fire the person in charge and promote from within. 

The massive failure in development stems from being behind the rest of the league in infrastructure, analytics, tech and current methods. The appearance of Getz fixing these areas as soon as he was in charge either outs Getz as a truly Machiavellian character, failing in order to blame his bosses and get them fired, or somebody who tried to update these things, but regularly turned down. 

Getz was not a "good" hire. But you're grasping when you try to blame every failure of the last 2 decades on him just because he was part of the front office. 

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's normal to fire the person in charge and promote from within. 

The massive failure in development stems from being behind the rest of the league in infrastructure, analytics, tech and current methods. The appearance of Getz fixing these areas as soon as he was in charge either outs Getz as a truly Machiavellian character, failing in order to blame his bosses and get them fired, or somebody who tried to update these things, but regularly turned down. 

Getz was not a "good" hire. But you're grasping when you try to blame every failure of the last 2 decades on him just because he was part of the front office. 

All of the failure?  Not even remotely.  He's the only one who knew what he was doing even though his department was a massive and complete failure?  lol-worthy.