Pitching injuries study...

[Lip Man 1]

https://apnews.com/article/mlb-pitcher-injuries-report-a5606c566920da8f4ebae2ad5a6146ab#:~:text=NEW YORK (AP) — A,changes to address the problem.

 

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

No fucking s%*#.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

 

But greg told us the problem is pitchers don't throw enough innings anymore???

[nrockway]

Don't know what rule changes you could actually institute. A pitch over 100 mph is a ball? No more giving "max effort"? I guess this is what the MLB recommends:

Quote

...playing rules could be adjusted or designed to encourage or require starting pitchers to preserve enough energy to allow them to pitch deeper into games. These incentives could be supported by roster rules that more appropriately regulate the availability of pitchers on a roster or in a team’s bullpen for a given game, including potential changes to the number and frequency of transactions that allow Clubs to replace pitchers on their rosters

Doesn't seem particularly helpful. Rather than have a rule that says starting pitchers 'must' pitch 6 innings (delusional), why doesn't the MLB come up with its own version of Pitcher WAR that can be tied to arbitration payments and likely to free agent contracts? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current WARs don't reward pitchers for going deep into games. A strikeout in the first inning will be worth as much as a strikeout in a pitcher's 7th inning of work. Yes, you can potentially rack up more WAR by throwing more innings, but there's something useful about a pitcher that gets outs deep into games that isn't adequately recognized. Fangraphs makes a 'leverage' adjustment for relievers, there should be something similar for starters. Will pitchers regulate themselves if there's a statistical and financial component to 'not giving max effort'? Couldn't hurt. 

Youth sports is the bigger issue to me, I feel somewhat sorry for millionaires blowing out their elbows and shoulders, I feel worse about the kids who will never play professionally. Especially the Latin kids because they're obviously being fed drugs from a very young age and MLB turns a blind eye to it. What if scouts aren't allowed to report the velocity of players under 18 to teams anymore, else face a fine? That seems unlikely and like a wonderful incentive for even more corruption. Gotta do something though, I just don't know what MLB could do.

Wouldn't mind seeing more two+ inning relief pitchers though, interested to see what "regulate the availability of pitchers on a roster" might mean.

Edited December 18 by nrockway

[fathom]

12 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

No fucking s%*#.

You mean 14-15 kids trying to get their personal best velocities in December isn’t a good idea?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

You mean 14-15 kids trying to get their personal best velocities in December isn’t a good idea?

Yeah, the issue here isn't at the pro-level. Growing into velocity isn't terrible for your arm, it's the max effort from pony ball through pro ball that is destroying arms.

Younger kids should learn to pitch first and worry about velo second. Max effort causing injuries shouldn't be surprising to anyone, but the damage is being done much sooner than at the MLB level.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

33 minutes ago, fathom said:

You mean 14-15 kids trying to get their personal best velocities in December isn’t a good idea?

If you're not posting shirtless videos of yourself on twitter throwing a baseball as hard as you can into a net are you really even trying??

[Chisoxfn]

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

But greg told us the problem is pitchers don't throw enough innings anymore???

That actually is part of the problem if you read the study.  Max effort over short distances - ie sprinting and pushing the body too far is breaking it.  More innings but at lower effort and better training to build up over the long run vs. all the max effort which helps increase strength but also decreases resiliency and increases tears.  

So he isn't wrong - getting to where guys have to go longer, you just need to ease off.  Now of course if they just go as hard until it falls off thats a whole nother issue and the trend will just get worse.  

[Chisoxfn]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, the issue here isn't at the pro-level. Growing into velocity isn't terrible for your arm, it's the max effort from pony ball through pro ball that is destroying arms.

Younger kids should learn to pitch first and worry about velo second. Max effort causing injuries shouldn't be surprising to anyone, but the damage is being done much sooner than at the MLB level.

The STAT showing the increase in youth UCL tears as a % of total UCL repais/tears is just insane.  Not surprised but it goes back to - focus on mechanics and location and arm maintence. When they get older build the strength but do it at the right time, including when to bring breaking balls into the equation and other items.  

[SoCalChiSox]

It's interesting that Getz is putting a heavy emphasis on pitching (in terms of asset acquisition and also where they spend their money in terms of infrastructure, i.e. Bannister) even in light of this...

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

That actually is part of the problem if you read the study.  Max effort over short distances - ie sprinting and pushing the body too far is breaking it.  More innings but at lower effort and better training to build up over the long run vs. all the max effort which helps increase strength but also decreases resiliency and increases tears.  

So he isn't wrong - getting to where guys have to go longer, you just need to ease off.  Now of course if they just go as hard until it falls off thats a whole nother issue and the trend will just get worse.  

The problem remains - if max effort for as long as your body can take it gives you an ERA of 3, and going slightly longer but at lower effort leaves you with an ERA of 4.5, one of these is a guy who will make 10s of millions of dollars and one of these guys will barely stay in the big leagues.

As much as we want to complain about pitchers doing this...the hitters have gotten smarter and better on most teams in the league too. The pitchers have been ahead of them a little bit by pushing their bodies to the breaking point, but if they let up, the hitters make them pay. 

The league naturally selects for guys who are willing to throw everything they have into being effective on the mound. 

[PaleAleSox]

5 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

If you're not posting shirtless videos of yourself on twitter throwing a baseball as hard as you can into a net are you really even trying??

With a running start. 

[ptatc]

Something the medical research figured out a few years ago.

[ptatc]

8 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

But greg told us the problem is pitchers don't throw enough innings anymore???

Actually it's more not enough between starts

[Dick Allen]

It’s worth the injury gamble especially if you are able to come back from it. It happens early in your career before you make it to the majors, you aren’t getting paid anyway. You get hurt before you’re a free agent, you still get paid plus service time, or if you get hurt after you get paid, the checks don’t stop. Most things in baseball,are cyclical. Everything seems to come back. Even bunts and stolen bases. But I don’t know if the 220 inning horse is one of them. 

[DFAthewave69420]

Injuries happen in sports, get over it Manfred.

 

Pitching depth is more important now than ever.  

[Quin]

17 hours ago, PaleAleSox said:

With a running start. 

Here's the problem: 

Right now, who's gonna get a bigger pay day?

Kopech, who despite all the injuries and bravado and failure as a starter, had success as a reliever for the Dodgers and will now get a full season with them.

Or Drew Thorpe, who is a soft tossing righty that still got injured. If Thorpe has lost any speed, he's fucked.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

1 hour ago, DFAthewave69420 said:

Injuries happen in sports, get over it Manfred.

 

Pitching depth is more important now than ever.  

Sure but not at this high a rate and not where a painful surgery and grueling recovery is required.  The throw as hard as you can for as long as you can until you break mindset has to end and front offices have to stop treating pitchers like they're disposable.  

[WhiteSox2023]

18 hours ago, PaleAleSox said:

With a running start. 

Stop making fun of Kopech.

[southsider2k5]

26 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Sure but not at this high a rate and not where a painful surgery and grueling recovery is required.  The throw as hard as you can for as long as you can until you break mindset has to end and front offices have to stop treating pitchers like they're disposable.  

Don Cooper is with you, but I don't see how you hold down the offense enough to keep things decently in balance.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

We all HATE it, Coach.

 

[ptatc]

58 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

We all HATE it, Coach.

 

No doubt. But like someoneelse posted. That's what the MLB teams want as it the best way to get outs. Even though it's hard  on the pitchers and decreases the longevity of pitchers.

[greg775]

On 12/18/2024 at 1:29 PM, Chisoxfn said:

That actually is part of the problem if you read the study.  Max effort over short distances - ie sprinting and pushing the body too far is breaking it.  More innings but at lower effort and better training to build up over the long run vs. all the max effort which helps increase strength but also decreases resiliency and increases tears.  

So he isn't wrong - getting to where guys have to go longer, you just need to ease off.  Now of course if they just go as hard until it falls off thats a whole nother issue and the trend will just get worse.  

I always watched pitchers who go deep into games (Buehrle, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Kaat, whoever) and considered their work an art form. It wasn't just rearing back and striking guys out throwing 105 for as long as you can go, combined with some cutters. It was a beautiful work of art. Yes, starting pitchers who could throw shutouts or 9 inning masterpieces of 1, 2 runs, could hum a fastball in there when necessary. But they mixed things up, inside, out, fastball, curve, change, slider some (even though sliders stressed the arm)  and they painted their masterpiece. Also if you faced a hitter a certain way one at bat you might change it up his next at bat or two. ... Baseball to me is getting boring partly because of the pitchers going with the heater and cutter (resulting in Ks after an excessive mount of boring foul balls) and of course the failure of hitters to even try to beat the shift or bunt to beat the shift and of course every hitter has to try to lift and pull it. Sure a few homers result from lift and pull, also a lot of balls hit right into the shift. Baseball is a horrible product right now but like Lip, greg can't quite divorce himself from his favorite sport as a youth. Give me Fergie/Holtzman/Gary Peters, Joe Horlen, LaMarr Hoyt, Jim Kaat, Dennis Leonard, Larry Gura, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally baby! They'll pain u some corners and a masterpiece without needing Tommy John.