Vargas and Fletcher have to play . . . be given every chance to succeed . . . Right?

[Sambuca]

11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

As of now, the starting OF is LF Benintendi CF Robert and RF Tauchman/Slater. Unless Benny is the primary DH, it doesn't seem like Fletcher will get much of a shot.

I forgot about Tauchman. Can he still play CF? What about Slater?

I guess Robert's status (traded or injured) will determine how many ABs will be available to Fletcher. 

I still believe there will be at bats to go around with the DH spot open, and most of the OF having the ability to play all three spots. 

We also have Deloach and Colas looking for ABs. 

Would be nice a problem to have if any of these guys were actually good baseball players. 

 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Sambuca said:

I forgot about Tauchman. Can he still play CF? What about Slater?

I guess Robert's status (traded or injured) will determine how many ABs will be available to Fletcher. 

I still believe there will be at bats to go around with the DH spot open, and most of the OF having the ability to play all three spots. 

We also have Deloach and Colas looking for ABs. 

Would be nice a problem to have if any of these guys were actually good baseball players. 

 

Forget about Colas.  He has been bannished for crimes against Humanity and Chris Getz.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

For reference, here are some facts & figures related to Vargas & Fletcher:

Vargas: 

• Bio: Age = 25 | B/T = R/R | Height = 6’2” | Weight = 205 | Options = 0
• Acquired: LatAm FA (Y17-300k) | Peak Prospect Ranking = 29th MLB (Y23)
• BA Grades: Hit = 65 | Power = 50 | Run = 60 | Field = 40 | Arm = 55
• Y24 Statcast: Bat Speed = 19th | Chase = 90th | Arm = 88th | Sprint = 84th
• Y24 AAA: 19.9% BB % | 17.3% K % | .276 ISO | .290/.440/1.005 | 151 wRC+

Fletcher: 

• Bio: Age = 27 | B/T = L/L | Height = 5’6” | Weight = 185 | Options = 1 |
• Acquired: 75th pick (Y19-$700k) | Peak Prospect Ranking = 17th org (Y23)
• BA Grades: Hit = 50 | Power = 45 | Run = 45 | Field = 60 | Arm = 55
• Y24 Statcast: Bat Speed = 4th | Chase = 27th | Arm = 80th | Sprint = 25th
• Y24 AAA: 9.4 BB % | 14.2 K % | .126 ISO | .263/.333/.723 | 91 wRC+

Couple of things worth highlighting here.  Fletcher will turn 28 before the end of next season.  He’s a really short dude who is more or less physically maxed out.  Despite not being fast, he does get good reads and he has a plus arm as well.  He is a legit quality defensive RF, but the lack of speed hurts in CF and he simply isn’t as good making plays out there.  Not sure if that would change with more reps in CF, but the lack of speed will certainly cap his abilities there.

My big beef with Fletcher is a lack of bat speed and power.  This dude actually had a really high LA sweet spot rate and squared up on balls fairly well, but did little damage because he’s so small and his bat was so slow.  If he had more speed and high end contact skills, maybe there could be swing changes to make him more useful, but that’s not really who he is.  I think with more experience the chase rate might improve, but an improved walk rate can’t overcome his other limitations.  IMO, he has a 4th OF ceiling and that requires him to be able to play a decent CF and make significant strides with the bat.

Vargas is far more interesting to me and more worthy of playing time.  His best single trait is his elite plate discipline.  As bad as he was last year, his chase rate was in the top 10% of major leaguers and had a double digit BB rate.  He’s also been regarded a being plus plus hitter in the minors, although that didn’t really show up last year when I watched him or based on his Statcast metrics which reflect a slow bat and poor quality of contact.  Honestly, I was a bit surprised at how bad Vargas looked given his minor league reputation as a hitter.  I believe Getz mentioned that Miguel lost some strength during the 2H of last year, so hopefully there is some explanation here for why a 65 grade looked so bad beyond just swing & approach related things.  And while he doesn’t have great power, he’s got a bigger frame and doesn’t seem completely maxed out yet.

No doubt Vargas is a wild card, but I can squint and see the outline of a useful major league hitter.  Where he plays I have no idea though.  What’s fascinating is he’s actually really fast and has plus arm strength.  Unfortunately, he seems to lack in all key skill areas and simply isn’t a good defensive player anywhere at the moment.  Could he possibly get to average at a non 1B position?  Maybe, but that’s harder to imagine than the bat turning around IMO.  However, I’m willing to wait and see how the bat comes along and endure the defense for the time being.  To me, the plan should be to stick him at 3B for three months and focus on that spot.  If the bat comes alive but he’s struggling at 3B, then try him in LF.  I would avoid moving him to 1B or DH unless all other options fail.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Couple of things worth highlighting here.  Fletcher will turn 28 before the end of next season.  He’s a really short dude who is more or less physically maxed out.  Despite not being fast, he does get good reads and he has a plus arm as well.  He is a legit quality defensive RF, but the lack of speed hurts in CF and he simply isn’t as good making plays out there.  Not sure if that would change with more reps in CF, but the lack of speed will certainly cap his abilities there.

My big beef with Fletcher is a lack of bat speed and power.  This dude actually had a really high LA sweet spot rate and squared up on balls fairly well, but did little damage because he’s so small and his bat was so slow.  If he had more speed and high end contact skills, maybe there could be swing changes to make him more useful, but that’s not really who he is.  I think with more experience the chase rate might improve, but an improved walk rate can’t overcome his other limitations.  IMO, he has a 4th OF ceiling and that requires him to be able to play a decent CF and make significant strides with the bat.

Vargas is far more interesting to me and more worthy of playing time.  His best single trait is his elite plate discipline.  As bad as he was last year, his chase rate was in the top 10% of major leaguers and had a double digit BB rate.  He’s also been regarded a being plus plus hitter in the minors, although that didn’t really show up last year when I watched him or based on his Statcast metrics which reflect a slow bat and poor quality of contact.  Honestly, I was a bit surprised at how bad Vargas looked given his minor league reputation as a hitter.  I believe Getz mentioned that Miguel lost some strength during the 2H of last year, so hopefully there is some explanation here for why a 65 grade looked so bad beyond just swing & approach related things.  And while he doesn’t have great power, he’s got a bigger frame and doesn’t seem completely maxed out yet.

No doubt Vargas is a wild card, but I can squint and see the outline of a useful major league hitter.  Where he plays I have no idea though.  What’s fascinating is he’s actually really fast and has plus arm strength.  Unfortunately, he seems to lack in all key skill areas and simply isn’t a good defensive player anywhere at the moment.  Could he possibly get to average at a non 1B position?  Maybe, but that’s harder to imagine than the bat turning around IMO.  However, I’m willing to wait and see how the bat comes along and endure the defense for the time being.  To me, the plan should be to stick him at 3B for three months and focus on that spot.  If the bat comes alive but he’s struggling at 3B, then try him in LF.  I would avoid moving him to 1B or DH unless all other options fail.

He might even be best at second.

But then we also have Sosa, Meidroth Baldwin, Mr. #1 draft pick teetering on bust...none of those guys sticking wouldn't be the least bit surprising, regardless of theoretical Steamer projections.

[Timmy U]

Vargas cannot play LF. Full stop. There is an opportunity cost with just giving him 3b. That would mean no chance for Ramos and maybe Sosa. I think Vargas is a dh. Not against trying him at 3b if Ramos and Sosa don’t earn a shot, but I want to play the best man. I would make it an ongoing competition.

[caulfield12]

Don't forget we now have Cal Mitchell for CF...

[WestEddy]

40 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Don't forget we now have Cal Mitchell for CF...

He's more of a RF. He's only played 8 games in CF in the minors. 

[Chicago White Sox]

50 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Vargas cannot play LF. Full stop. There is an opportunity cost with just giving him 3b. That would mean no chance for Ramos and maybe Sosa. I think Vargas is a dh. Not against trying him at 3b if Ramos and Sosa don’t earn a shot, but I want to play the best man. I would make it an ongoing competition.

Based on his time with the Dodgers or simply due to a lack of tools or skill?

Regarding 3B, my thinking is Ramos should start the season in AAA.  He did not have a great 2024 at any level and he’s still very young.  Let him get a bit more seasoning and arrive sometime in May or June if all goes well.  I know most of the big publications have knocked him down into the teens, but he’s still my 5th highest rated positional prospect in the system (above Wolkow, Bonemer, etc) and I truly believe he has a great shot to become our everyday 3B.

As for Sosa, I want him to compete against Baldwin & Meidroth for the middle infield jobs.  I have no problem with him rotating in at 3B too, but I think he should get the bulk of playing at 2B.  I get he was bad there last year for us, but I don’t recall him being a bad defender in the minors when I’ve watched him play (even at SS) and scouting reports have always highlighted him as a solid defender.  I do think he profiles best at 2B from a tools standpoint though.

[caulfield12]

48 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He's more of a RF. He's only played 8 games in CF in the minors. 

That won't stop the Sox.

I'd almost rather see him than vets but it's whatever.

[oldsox]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Couple of things worth highlighting here.  Fletcher will turn 28 before the end of next season.  He’s a really short dude who is more or less physically maxed out.  Despite not being fast, he does get good reads and he has a plus arm as well.  He is a legit quality defensive RF, but the lack of speed hurts in CF and he simply isn’t as good making plays out there.  Not sure if that would change with more reps in CF, but the lack of speed will certainly cap his abilities there.

My big beef with Fletcher is a lack of bat speed and power.  This dude actually had a really high LA sweet spot rate and squared up on balls fairly well, but did little damage because he’s so small and his bat was so slow.  If he had more speed and high end contact skills, maybe there could be swing changes to make him more useful, but that’s not really who he is.  I think with more experience the chase rate might improve, but an improved walk rate can’t overcome his other limitations.  IMO, he has a 4th OF ceiling and that requires him to be able to play a decent CF and make significant strides with the bat.

Vargas is far more interesting to me and more worthy of playing time.  His best single trait is his elite plate discipline.  As bad as he was last year, his chase rate was in the top 10% of major leaguers and had a double digit BB rate.  He’s also been regarded a being plus plus hitter in the minors, although that didn’t really show up last year when I watched him or based on his Statcast metrics which reflect a slow bat and poor quality of contact.  Honestly, I was a bit surprised at how bad Vargas looked given his minor league reputation as a hitter.  I believe Getz mentioned that Miguel lost some strength during the 2H of last year, so hopefully there is some explanation here for why a 65 grade looked so bad beyond just swing & approach related things.  And while he doesn’t have great power, he’s got a bigger frame and doesn’t seem completely maxed out yet.

No doubt Vargas is a wild card, but I can squint and see the outline of a useful major league hitter.  Where he plays I have no idea though.  What’s fascinating is he’s actually really fast and has plus arm strength.  Unfortunately, he seems to lack in all key skill areas and simply isn’t a good defensive player anywhere at the moment.  Could he possibly get to average at a non 1B position?  Maybe, but that’s harder to imagine than the bat turning around IMO.  However, I’m willing to wait and see how the bat comes along and endure the defense for the time being.  To me, the plan should be to stick him at 3B for three months and focus on that spot.  If the bat comes alive but he’s struggling at 3B, then try him in LF.  I would avoid moving him to 1B or DH unless all other options fail.

A fly ball was hit right at him {Fletcher}, and he fell down. Official scored called it a triple.  Worse than Judge in the WS. Another time he went back for a fly ball to deep center, and he somehow pushed the ball over the wall.  Official Scored called it a home run.

[Ozzie for Manager]

Si glad we handpicked Fletcher over Mccarthy and his 1.7 WAR.

[WhiteSox2023]

22 minutes ago, Ozzie for Manager said:

Si glad we handpicked Fletcher over Mccarthy and his 1.7 WAR.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

A fly ball was hit right at him {Fletcher}, and he fell down. Official scored called it a triple.  Worse than Judge in the WS. Another time he went back for a fly ball to deep center, and he somehow pushed the ball over the wall.  Official Scored called it a home run.

He almost did that twice, playing a ball into a homer.

[maxjusttyped]

I don't think you can say Fletcher has to stay on the 40 man roster let alone play every day during the season.

[Sambuca]

9 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Forget about Colas.  He has been bannished for crimes against Humanity and Chris Getz.

Basically. Crazy that he will turn 27 by the end of this season. 

I think he will see time on the major league roster, but who knows what circumstances will lead to that. He could rake in AAA and/or we could see several trades and/or injuries. Unfortunately, I don’t see a major league player either. 

[greg775]

So Vargas got 14 hits in 135 at bats for the Sox last season. He did draw 17 walks. But his 14 for 135 has to be one of the worst 135 at bat stretches of any player in Sox history. Why would anybody think this guy is an everyday player? Then Fletcher... 46 hits in 223 at bats. Oh boy that's awful.

And those two guys could be 2/9s of our order on a given day? Let's say Beni reverts back to the 2023 Beni and Robert and Vaughn hit the same as they did last year. And Fletcher and that other guy split duty in right field. I'm not trying to be an alarmist but even with some promising young arms you have to score some runs to win ballgames. I see no signs of 2025 White Sox being as good as the 2024 team. Who the hell is our shortstop? At least last. year we knew it was DeBong who was not a complete embarrasment. I see no punch in this lineup and very few HRs if Beni reverts back to 2023 and Vaughn remains Vaughn.

Should be interesting to see if Sox can win a zillion 2-1 games somehow. No bats.

[Bob Sacamano]

12 hours ago, greg775 said:

So Vargas got 14 hits in 135 at bats for the Sox last season. He did draw 17 walks. But his 14 for 135 has to be one of the worst 135 at bat stretches of any player in Sox history. Why would anybody think this guy is an everyday player? Then Fletcher... 46 hits in 223 at bats. Oh boy that's awful.

And those two guys could be 2/9s of our order on a given day? Let's say Beni reverts back to the 2023 Beni and Robert and Vaughn hit the same as they did last year. And Fletcher and that other guy split duty in right field. I'm not trying to be an alarmist but even with some promising young arms you have to score some runs to win ballgames. I see no signs of 2025 White Sox being as good as the 2024 team. Who the hell is our shortstop? At least last. year we knew it was DeBong who was not a complete embarrasment. I see no punch in this lineup and very few HRs if Beni reverts back to 2023 and Vaughn remains Vaughn.

Should be interesting to see if Sox can win a zillion 2-1 games somehow. No bats.

Going to be a rough few years

[southsider2k5]

12 hours ago, greg775 said:

So Vargas got 14 hits in 135 at bats for the Sox last season. He did draw 17 walks. But his 14 for 135 has to be one of the worst 135 at bat stretches of any player in Sox history. Why would anybody think this guy is an everyday player? Then Fletcher... 46 hits in 223 at bats. Oh boy that's awful.

And those two guys could be 2/9s of our order on a given day? Let's say Beni reverts back to the 2023 Beni and Robert and Vaughn hit the same as they did last year. And Fletcher and that other guy split duty in right field. I'm not trying to be an alarmist but even with some promising young arms you have to score some runs to win ballgames. I see no signs of 2025 White Sox being as good as the 2024 team. Who the hell is our shortstop? At least last. year we knew it was DeBong who was not a complete embarrasment. I see no punch in this lineup and very few HRs if Beni reverts back to 2023 and Vaughn remains Vaughn.

Should be interesting to see if Sox can win a zillion 2-1 games somehow. No bats.

Usually when you set a historic loss record, you have a lot of really bad performances.

[Fielder Jones]

Not Fletcher. he doesnt fit where MLB is going

[Tnetennba]

Fletcher might survive as a 4th OF in the bigs, even if playing a good CF is a stretch. Vargas will have to hit to be a useful player, and so far in nearly 200 Major League games he simply hasn't. No bat DH's don't last very long in most orgs. But both being Getz acquisitions, they'll likely be allowed to fail even longer, long after when most GM's would simply cut bait.

 

[46DidIt]

When the Sox acquired Vargas he had a 108 OpS+ in 80 PA for the Dodgers, after putting up a .290/440/556 line at AAA in 191 PA, and having .900 OPS and .400 OBP over  previous two years in minors. Not sure what happened in those 40 games with Sox, but prior to that, Fletcher wasn’t even on the same planet as Vargas. Basically an A- prospect vs a B- prospect. Sox definitely have to give Vargas at bats but Fletcher I’d say needs to earn any kind of role IMO

[vilehoopster]

MLB.com put out a video of the top-five White Sox outfield assists from '24. In the few games he played, Fletcher has three of the five shown on the video. 

I think that says something, especially to all the people saying his defense is terrible, especially when talking about his defense in right field. 

 

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/video/white-sox-s-top-5-outfield-assists-of-2024?t=statcast

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

MLB.com put out a video of the top-five White Sox outfield assists from '24. In the few games he played, Fletcher has three of the five shown on the video. 

I think that says something, especially to all the people saying his defense is terrible, especially when talking about his defense in right field. 

 

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/video/white-sox-s-top-5-outfield-assists-of-2024?t=statcast

Not a single person in the world has called his RF defense terrible…like no idea where you came up with that notion

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

MLB.com put out a video of the top-five White Sox outfield assists from '24. In the few games he played, Fletcher has three of the five shown on the video. 

I think that says something, especially to all the people saying his defense is terrible, especially when talking about his defense in right field. 

 

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/video/white-sox-s-top-5-outfield-assists-of-2024?t=statcast

He’s a fourth outfielder that can’t hit.  Who cares?

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, 46DidIt said:

When the Sox acquired Vargas he had a 108 OpS+ in 80 PA for the Dodgers, after putting up a .290/440/556 line at AAA in 191 PA, and having .900 OPS and .400 OBP over  previous two years in minors. Not sure what happened in those 40 games with Sox, but prior to that, Fletcher wasn’t even on the same planet as Vargas. Basically an A- prospect vs a B- prospect. Sox definitely have to give Vargas at bats but Fletcher I’d say needs to earn any kind of role IMO

That 108 OPS+ was in 80 plate appearances over 30 games. In nearly double the plate appearances with the Sox, he put up an OPS+ of 14. 14! In 304 PA over 81 games in 2023, he put up a stat line of .195/.305/.367, good for a .672 OPS and a 82 OPS+. Feels more like his 2024 with LAD was an outlier based more on favorable matchups than him figuring anything out at the plate to me.

I have absolutely no idea why he cratered so bad here, but he did. While some regression to the mean is plausible, but nothing about him screams 'definitely have to give more AB's.' Vargas should be in the "earn it" camp just as much as any other failed prospect/AAAA project.