Vargas and Fletcher have to play . . . be given every chance to succeed . . . Right?

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

MLB.com put out a video of the top-five White Sox outfield assists from '24. In the few games he played, Fletcher has three of the five shown on the video. 

I think that says something, especially to all the people saying his defense is terrible, especially when talking about his defense in right field. 

 

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/video/white-sox-s-top-5-outfield-assists-of-2024?t=statcast

His CF defense is questioned...along with the viability of his RF/corner bat.

[46DidIt]

Yeah but you’re ignoring the fact that from 2022-2024, at AAA he put up a .923 OPS with a .412 OBP at AAA as a top 40 prospect. Basically the type of prospect we have like two of per decade at best. Even those numbers he put up in 2023 with Dodgers aren’t that bad if you look beyond the admittedly BA. 

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

Yeah but you’re ignoring the fact that from 2022-2024, at AAA he put up a .923 OPS with a .412 OBP at AAA as a top 40 prospect. Basically the type of prospect we have like two of per decade at best. Even those numbers he put up in 2023 with Dodgers aren’t that bad if you look beyond the admittedly BA. 

He’s 25 years old now and he has put up a .586 OPS in 591 plate appearances.  Not a huge sample size but the equivalent of a full year in the majors.  He also blows with the glove at whatever position he is thrown at, so that will further keep his WAR/value down.

Edited Wednesday at 02:00 AM by WhiteSox2023

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

That 108 OPS+ was in 80 plate appearances over 30 games. In nearly double the plate appearances with the Sox, he put up an OPS+ of 14. 14! In 304 PA over 81 games in 2023, he put up a stat line of .195/.305/.367, good for a .672 OPS and a 82 OPS+. Feels more like his 2024 with LAD was an outlier based more on favorable matchups than him figuring anything out at the plate to me.

I have absolutely no idea why he cratered so bad here, but he did. While some regression to the mean is plausible, but nothing about him screams 'definitely have to give more AB's.' Vargas should be in the "earn it" camp just as much as any other failed prospect/AAAA project.

The key difference is he has no options left, so you pretty much need to give him an extended look before deciding whether to cut bait.  And unlike some of the others in the mix for playing time, he has dominated AAA and wouldn’t really benefit from more minor league seasoning regardless.  That doesn’t change the fact he legit looked terrible last year, but he’s got enough pedigree to give him another three months IMO.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The key difference is he has no options left, so you pretty much need to give him an extended look before deciding whether to cut bait.  And unlike some of the others in the mix for playing time, he has dominated AAA and wouldn’t really benefit from more minor league seasoning regardless.  That doesn’t change the fact he legit looked terrible last year, but he’s got enough pedigree to give him another three months IMO.

If he accidentally causes Montgomery to have to go to Charlotte for a few weeks, so much the better.

[Tnetennba]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The key difference is he has no options left, so you pretty much need to give him an extended look before deciding whether to cut bait.  And unlike some of the others in the mix for playing time, he has dominated AAA and wouldn’t really benefit from more minor league seasoning regardless.  That doesn’t change the fact he legit looked terrible last year, but he’s got enough pedigree to give him another three months IMO.

The premise of this thread is that they have to give him AB's to see what they have, and I'm simply suggesting that we've seen enough that nothing should be a given with him. If you look at the whole of his Major League body of work, and not simply some very cherry picked numbers in LA last season, you get the picture of a dude who has failed miserably and has shown little ability to adjust. He wouldn't be the first prospect to tear up AAA and flame out in the Bigs. The Sox gave him everyday AB's after the trade, nearly twice as many as his 2024 in LA, and he was abysmal. Yes he is out of options, but that alone shouldn't entitle him to playing ahead of anyone else in my book. He has to earn it just as much as anyone else. There is no reason to compound the mistake of trading for him by playing him ahead of guys like Sosa or Ramos or anyone else who might still prove to be a useful piece.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The premise of this thread is that they have to give him AB's to see what they have, and I'm simply suggesting that we've seen enough that nothing should be a given with him. If you look at the whole of his Major League body of work, and not simply some very cherry picked numbers in LA last season, you get the picture of a dude who has failed miserably and has shown little ability to adjust. He wouldn't be the first prospect to tear up AAA and flame out in the Bigs. The Sox gave him everyday AB's after the trade, nearly twice as many as his 2024 in LA, and he was abysmal. Yes he is out of options, but that alone shouldn't entitle him to playing ahead of anyone else in my book. He has to earn it just as much as anyone else. There is no reason to compound the mistake of trading for him by playing him ahead of guys like Sosa or Ramos or anyone else who might still prove to be a useful piece.

Cherry picked? Are people only talking about the PAs where he got a hit and are ignoring the strikeouts? No. His entire batting lines from LA are being taken into account. What I see is that he seemed overmatched in 2022, but from 2022 to 2023, his k% dropped, his bb% doubled, and his LD% rose, indicating adjustment. These rates stayed the same into 2024 with the Dodgers, and even in a small sample size, started to get on base and slug at acceptable rates. 

It has been mentioned that his strength dropped off last season. He slumped, and just couldn't pull out of it. It's fun to say "he must work for it", and "nothing should be handed to him", but he would have to continue his abysmal batting line through all of spring training, and at least 3 of 6 players (ramos, sosa, deloach, colas, meidroth, baldwin) would have to put up steady hitting lines in ST in order for Vargas to be squeezed out. 

Like it or not, he was the main piece of the Fedde trade. It's not Getz' ego to give Vargas a long chance to show what his prospect belied. We paid a high price for him. That would be like buying a new car, then leaving it on the side of the road once the gas ran low. 

If Sosa hits, he's your 2B. I think Ramos may still need a good half season in Charlotte to get in a groove he could jump off of when promoted. 

[Timmy U]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

The premise of this thread is that they have to give him AB's to see what they have, and I'm simply suggesting that we've seen enough that nothing should be a given with him. If you look at the whole of his Major League body of work, and not simply some very cherry picked numbers in LA last season, you get the picture of a dude who has failed miserably and has shown little ability to adjust. He wouldn't be the first prospect to tear up AAA and flame out in the Bigs. The Sox gave him everyday AB's after the trade, nearly twice as many as his 2024 in LA, and he was abysmal. Yes he is out of options, but that alone shouldn't entitle him to playing ahead of anyone else in my book. He has to earn it just as much as anyone else. There is no reason to compound the mistake of trading for him by playing him ahead of guys like Sosa or Ramos or anyone else who might still prove to be a useful piece.

To me there’s one thing you could judge about Vargas in the Spring: Has he adjusted to the 4-seam? If not, there’s very little hope for him. You literally cannot find a single decent player who struggles against 4-seamers the way Vargas does. If he makes the adjustment, give him half a season. If not, I don’t know why you would.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

The premise of this thread is that they have to give him AB's to see what they have, and I'm simply suggesting that we've seen enough that nothing should be a given with him. If you look at the whole of his Major League body of work, and not simply some very cherry picked numbers in LA last season, you get the picture of a dude who has failed miserably and has shown little ability to adjust. He wouldn't be the first prospect to tear up AAA and flame out in the Bigs. The Sox gave him everyday AB's after the trade, nearly twice as many as his 2024 in LA, and he was abysmal. Yes he is out of options, but that alone shouldn't entitle him to playing ahead of anyone else in my book. He has to earn it just as much as anyone else. There is no reason to compound the mistake of trading for him by playing him ahead of guys like Sosa or Ramos or anyone else who might still prove to be a useful piece.

Earn it how though?  By having a good spring training?  Those numbers are mostly meaningless from a predictive sense.  If it’s based on AAA numbers, he deserves the first shot because no else has the track record there that he does.

Ultimately, we are coming off a 121 loss season and can’t really pass on giving an extended look to a former top 50 prospect.  157 plate appearances after a mid season trade from the eventual World Series winner to the worst team in baseball history is simply not a large enough sample size.

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Earn it how though?  By having a good spring training?  Those numbers are mostly meaningless from a predictive sense.  If it’s based on AAA numbers, he deserves the first shot because no else has the track record there that he does.

Ultimately, we are coming off a 121 loss season and can’t really pass on giving an extended look to a former top 50 prospect.  157 plate appearances after a mid season trade from the eventual World Series winner to the worst team in baseball history is simply not a large enough sample size.

157 plate appearances after a mid season trade might not be a large sample size, but he's had over 500 AB's in the bigs. At some point we have to stop clinging to his former prospect status from years ago and look at what he has done in the Majors. And his Major League numbers aren't pretty, which, to me, are more predictive of who he is and will be than his AAA numbers or prospect ranking from years past.

[WestEddy]

35 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

157 plate appearances after a mid season trade might not be a large sample size, but he's had over 500 AB's in the bigs. At some point we have to stop clinging to his former prospect status from years ago and look at what he has done in the Majors. And his Major League numbers aren't pretty, which, to me, are more predictive of who he is and will be than his AAA numbers or prospect ranking from years past.

Over 3 seasons, as a rookie breaking into the league. I'm curious what top positional prospects you think he's blocking. 

[Texsox]

On 12/30/2024 at 8:46 AM, Highland said:

 It appears that Getz is trying to bring some good baseball men into the organization, 

Could you elaborate? Who were the non baseball men that had to go? 

[zisk]

19 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Over 3 seasons, as a rookie breaking into the league. I'm curious what top positional prospects you think he's blocking. 

I'd much rather play Bryan Ramos than Vargas at 3rd. Before he strained his stomach muscle, BR

looked like a MLB player. Unfortunately that type of injury takes a while to get over. The last month

of the season he was back to doing what he always has in the past. He's solid at 3b, is athletic and can hit.

He's also 2 1/2 years younger than Vargas. Let MV fight it out with AV for 1B and DH. Hell, try him in LF

against lefties. Just leave Ramos at 3rd. He is the closest thing we have to a MLB ready prospect.

Edited Thursday at 09:30 PM by zisk
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