Would we be

[Y2Jimmy0]

On 1/5/2025 at 1:30 PM, Johno said:

contenders if we signed both Alonso and Santander today?   I’m not sure we wouldn’t be at least a 500 team if both players had solid seasons.

Here's the thing about the free agent market: it would be Santander and Alonso plus forfeiting the first pick in the 2nd round, first pick in the 3rd round and $1 million in international pool space so that you might win 65 games. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Sox hit 133 homers last season, dead last in MLB. I bet adding two guys that hit a combined 78 homers to the lineup would help a bit. I doubt it would be a great offense but I bet it would be close to average, which certainly beats worst in mlb.

[Y2Jimmy0]

57 minutes ago, 46DidIt said:

Nope as the link you yourself provided clearly explains, teams now receive compensation picks between rounds rather than picks from signing teams. That was eliminated in last CBA several years ago due to fact it was suppressing the players’ value

Correct but the signing team still forfeits the picks. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Here's the thing about the free agent market: it would be Santander and Alonso plus forfeiting the first pick in the 2nd round, first pick in the 3rd round and $1 million in international pool space so that you might win 65 games. 

I get it but won’t the Sox be in the same predicament with fewer free agent options the next two winters? 

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Here's the thing about the free agent market: it would be Santander and Alonso plus forfeiting the first pick in the 2nd round, first pick in the 3rd round and $1 million in international pool space so that you might win 65 games. 

If you look at the White Sox 2nd round picks the last 50 years, it wouldn't be a huge hit.

[Y2Jimmy0]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I get it but won’t the Sox be in the same predicament with fewer free agent options the next two winters? 

Yeah but it makes more sense when you're better. They won't be signing free agents with QO next winter either. 

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If you look at the White Sox 2nd round picks the last 50 years, it wouldn't be a huge hit.

True. I think it's more about the bonus pool lost than anything. There's zero reason the Sox should be forfeiting draft picks right now though. 

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Yeah but it makes more sense when you're better. They won't be signing free agents with QO next winter either. 

True. I think it's more about the bonus pool lost than anything. There's zero reason the Sox should be forfeiting draft picks right now though. 

I think everyone knows that, but people are so sick of watching bad baseball, and looking at this team, that's all you can see for the foreseeable future. JR has to sell.

[T R U]

Here's how I get to contender overnight in the ALC with what could easily be an obtainable payroll for a Chicago market team in my fantasy world. In this world, Vaughn is a .750 OPS guy, Benintendi continues how he ended 2024, Luis Robert bounces back to a 5+ war player and we never traded Crochet. 

 

C- Edgar Quero ($1m)

1B- Andrew Vaughn ($5m)

2B- Gleyber Torres ($15m)

3B- Colson Montgomery ($1m)

SS- Willy Adames ($26m)

LF- Andrew Benintendi ($17m)

CF- Luis Robert ($15m)

RF- Juan Soto ($51m)

DH- Pete Alonso ($25m)

 

SP- Corbin Burnes ($33m)

SP- Garrett Crochet ($3m)

SP- Trevor Williams ($7m)

SP- Davis Martin ($1m)

SP- Jonathan Cannon ($1m)

CL- Clay Holmes ($13m)

Payroll: Approx. 214 Million for the starters above, and toss in another $15-20 for bench and bullpen. for a total payroll in the neighborhood of $235 million. That would put them 7th in baseball right behind the powerhouse Atlanta market and right in front of some team called the Cubs, not sure where they play but must be a big market since they have a $229 million payroll.

Edited Monday at 08:08 PM by T R U

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Yeah but it makes more sense when you're better. They won't be signing free agents with QO next winter either. 

True. I think it's more about the bonus pool lost than anything. There's zero reason the Sox should be forfeiting draft picks right now though. 

It’s the chicken and the egg. Relying solely on drafting and development will assure the Sox remain uncompetitive for years. This isn’t a well oiled machine like the Rays and even the Rays are losing their edge with the rule changes and the way top teams are spending now. So how long are you willing to wait for them to be better?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, T R U said:

Here's how I get to contender overnight in the ALC with what could easily be an obtainable payroll for a Chicago market team in my fantasy world. In this world, Vaughn is a .750 OPS guy, Benintendi continues how he ended 2024, Luis Robert bounces back to a 5+ war player and we never traded Crochet. 

 

C- Quero ($1m)

1B- Andrew Vaughn ($5m)

2B- Gleyber Torres ($15m)

3B- Colson Montgomery ($1m)

SS- Willy Adames ($26m)

LF- Andrew Benintendi ($17m)

CF- Luis Robert ($15m)

RF- Juan Soto ($51m)

DH- Pete Alonso ($25m)

 

SP- Corbin Burnes ($33m)

SP- Garrett Crochet ($3m)

SP- Trevor Williams ($7m)

SP- Davis Martin ($1m)

SP- Jonathan Cannon ($1m)

CL- Clay Holmes ($13m)

Payroll: Approx. 214 Million for the starters above, and toss in another $15-20 for bench and bullpen. for a total payroll in the neighborhood of $235 million. That would put them 7th in baseball right behind the powerhouse Atlanta market and right in front of some team called the Cubs, not sure where they play but must be a big market since they have a $229 million payroll.

You could probably skip the Torres signing to get payroll a smidge under $200M and that’s still a top contender in the ALC.

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The implication in that exchange is that the Sox shouldn’t sign top free agent players, among other reasons, in part because they’d also lose draft picks. You all keep making excuses for Jerry operating at a $60M payroll for the next few years. I bet he’s happy.

Are you actually suggesting that we should forfeit a high 2nd round pick and $500k of international slot coming off a historically bad year and with no core pieces in place, just so we can pay Anthony Santander 5/$100M for his age 30 to 34 seasons?  That’s really the best path to success in years 2027 to 2029?

Isn’t this the type of s%*# Rick Hahn did prior to the last rebuild?  Trying to retool on the fly with several B & C tier free agents despite massive holes across the roster?  And the big difference there, is that team actually had some really nice core pieces in place in Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, & Rodon.  We literally have NOTHING right now outside of Robert and he won’t be here come 2028.

You can make this about Jerry being cheap, but your plan simply doesn’t work when the major league roster is this barren.  I get that means another year of awful baseball, but unfortunately that’s the price we must pay for years of ownership and front office neglect.  Three B tier free agents won’t change that and is more likely create landmines akin to the Benintendi contract when we do finally have the pieces in place to compete.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you actually suggesting that we should forfeit a high 2nd round pick and $500k of international slot coming off a historically bad year and with no core pieces in place, just so we can pay Anthony Santander 5/$100M for his age 30 to 34 seasons?  That’s really the best path to success in years 2027 to 2029?

Isn’t this the type of s%*# Rick Hahn did prior to the last rebuild?  Trying to retool on the fly with several B & C tier free agents despite massive holes across the roster?  And the big difference there, is that team actually had some really nice core pieces in place in Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, & Rodon.  We literally have NOTHING right now outside of Robert and he won’t be here come 2028.

You can make this about Jerry being cheap, but your plan simply doesn’t work when the major league roster is this barren.  I get that means another year of awful baseball, but unfortunately that’s the price we must pay for years of ownership and front office neglect.  Three B tier free agents won’t change that and is more likely create landmines akin to the Benintendi contract when we do finally have the pieces in place to compete.

Huh? Hahn didn’t do that. What premier free agents did he ever sign? Andrew Benintendi? Yasmani Grandal? Come on man. Aren’t they one of like two franchises to never give out a $100M contract? 

You previously mentioned waiting until next year to start signing good free agents. Who do you like in next winter’s class? I included a link to the players above. Won’t the Sox be forgetting a 2nd rounder and international money?

[Chicago White Sox]

42 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Sox hit 133 homers last season, dead last in MLB. I bet adding two guys that hit a combined 78 homers to the lineup would help a bit. I doubt it would be a great offense but I bet it would be close to average, which certainly beats worst in mlb.

Do you actually want to win a World Series eventually or be stuck the baseball equivalent of NBA hell?  Because it seems like you want to make moves that make us a little better next year but won’t push us to competitiveness all while destroying real long term value for the org.  And beyond just forfeiting draft picks and international slot in 2025, you are also likely weakening your draft position in the 2026 and eating payroll flexibility on dudes approaching their mid 30’s.  All because rebuilding the right way is boring and takes too long.

[Dick Allen]

The caveats being they suck drafting in the second round, and they rarely use all of their bonus money. But this is the first pick in the 2nd round, and they SHOULD use all of their bonus money.

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Huh? Hahn didn’t do that. What premier free agents did he ever sign? Andrew Benintendi? Yasmani Grandal? Come on man. Aren’t they one of like two franchises to never give out a $100M contract? 

You previously mentioned waiting until next year to start signing good free agents. Who do you like in next winter’s class? I included a link to the players above. Won’t the Sox be forgetting a 2nd rounder and international money?

I know we act like mentioning Benintendi and Grandal is now a dunk, but Benintendi was coming off as productive a season with the Royals and Yanks as Santander is, now, and Benintendi was 2 years younger. Grandal was the stat-nerd darling for framing, and he hit. 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Huh? Hahn didn’t do that. What premier free agents did he ever sign? Andrew Benintendi? Yasmani Grandal? Come on man. Aren’t they one of like two franchises to never give out a $100M contract? 

You previously mentioned waiting until next year to start signing good free agents. Who do you like in next winter’s class? I included a link to the players above. Won’t the Sox be forgetting a 2nd rounder and international money?

I’m talking the offseason he added Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, and traded for Shark.  Dollars may be smaller, but Cabrera & LaRoche basically put up the same level of fWAR in the season prior to signing with us that Santander & Alonso just put up.  And Robertson was a pretty high end closer at the time.  Hahn received accolades for all these moves and yet ultimately they didn’t move the needle enough to make us truly competitive.

To be candid, I like your players more than those guys, but the key risk and point still holds true.  Unless you’re buying legit stars (see Soto), it’s damn near impossible to buy you’re way to competitiveness, especially when you have zero foundation in place.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I know we act like mentioning Benintendi and Grandal is now a dunk, but Benintendi was coming off as productive a season with the Royals and Yanks as Santander is, now, and Benintendi was 2 years younger. Grandal was the stat-nerd darling for framing, and he hit. 

Look at Benintendi's three prior years to that one outlier though.

Take him out of the NY lineup and look what happened.

And also going from Gold Glove to one of the worst defenders in the outfield across all of baseball...with a Juan Pierre/Pods arm to boot.

Just another version of Melky Cabrera from a previous generation of bad FA moves.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m talking the offseason he added Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, and traded for Shark.  Dollars may be smaller, but Cabrera & LaRoche basically put up the same level of fWAR in the season prior to signing with us that Santander & Alonso just put up.  And Robertson was a pretty high end closer at the time.  Hahn received accolades for all these moves and yet ultimately they didn’t move the needle enough to make us truly competitive.

To be candid, I like your players more than those guys, but the key risk and point still holds true.  Unless you’re buying legit stars (see Soto), it’s damn near impossible to buy you’re way to competitiveness, especially when you have zero foundation in place.

Ok, so who are you signing next winter? And won’t the Sox lose a 2nd rounder and international money then? Or are we going to keep playing this game for another 4-5 years so we can rebuild the “right” way?

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m talking the offseason he added Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, and traded for Shark.  Dollars may be smaller, but Cabrera & LaRoche basically put up the same level of fWAR in the season prior to signing with us that Santander & Alonso just put up.  And Robertson was a pretty high end closer at the time.  Hahn received accolades for all these moves and yet ultimately they didn’t move the needle enough to make us truly competitive.

To be candid, I like your players more than those guys, but the key risk and point still holds true.  Unless you’re buying legit stars (see Soto), it’s damn near impossible to buy you’re way to competitiveness, especially when you have zero foundation in place.

Not only that, but LaRoche Eaton Sale ended up tearing the team right down the middle as Ventura decided to check out...

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

16 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I know we act like mentioning Benintendi and Grandal is now a dunk, but Benintendi was coming off as productive a season with the Royals and Yanks as Santander is, now, and Benintendi was 2 years younger. Grandal was the stat-nerd darling for framing, and he hit. 

Come on, Benintendi has not been in the same stratosphere as Alonso or even Kim. Santander, maybe. But Santander also fills a hole that the Sox haven’t been able to fill for nearly a decade and as far as I know don’t have any prospect that’s mlb ready to block there.

I’m on record for a very long time as not liking the Grandal signing. Always thought he was very overrated. I took a lot of heat for that opinion too but I stand by it to this day.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Ok, so who are you signing next winter? And won’t the Sox lose a 2nd rounder and international money then? Or are we going to keep playing this game for another 4-5 years so we can rebuild the “right” way?

Only if they sign somebody with a QO. 

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Look at Benintendi's three prior years to that one outlier though.

Take him out of the NY lineup and look what happened.

And also going from Gold Glove to one of the worst defenders in the outfield across all of baseball...with a Juan Pierre/Pods arm to boot.

Just another version of Melky Cabrera from a previous generation of bad FA moves.

B-R likes Benintendi more than Fangraphs. From 2017-2022, B-R had Benintendi as, roughly, a ML average player to 4.8 wins. I'm no fan of Benintendi or the signing, but he wasn't a dumpster dive when they signed him. It's great that you can now say he's not a good player. We all can. 

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Come on, Benintendi has not been in the same stratosphere as Alonso or even Kim. Santander, maybe. But Santander also fills a hole that the Sox haven’t been able to fill for nearly a decade and as far as I know don’t have any prospect that’s mlb ready to block there.

I’m on record for a very long time as not liking the Grandal signing. Always thought he was very overrated. I took a lot of heat for that opinion too but I stand by it to this day.

The problem is that almost all of his value's on the offensive side...and we know how that story goes minus steroids as players hit their 30's.

A player like him or Teoscar or even Arozarena are best generated internally...then jettusoned when they get too expensive.

Unless you're a team that can afford a $200+ million payroll and have the media rights deal to back it...otherwise you need to be selling out your stadium on a lightly basis like the Padres.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

True. I think it's more about the bonus pool lost than anything. There's zero reason the Sox should be forfeiting draft picks right now though. 

like the international bonus pool they forfeited last year by not using?

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

B-R likes Benintendi more than Fangraphs. From 2017-2022, B-R had Benintendi as, roughly, a ML average player to 4.8 wins. I'm no fan of Benintendi or the signing, but he wasn't a dumpster dive when they signed him. It's great that you can now say he's not a good player. We all can. 

Look at the signing thread.

He was never a good move for this franchise...just like the Royals were wise to move on from him when they did.

They bought at a high point and now are still looking to sell at a discount with few takers.

 

And your main argument that he's sort of an average player is completely writing off FG evaluations???

Sounds like you and Jeremy Haber would get along great.

Edited Monday at 09:15 PM by caulfield12