Would we be

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Ok, so who are you signing next winter? And won’t the Sox lose a 2nd rounder and international money then? Or are we going to keep playing this game for another 4-5 years so we can rebuild the “right” way?

Tanking isn’t an overly valuable strategy for us beyond this year.  But this year we have a real shot at the top pick and should pursue it as long as we’re also using the bulk of our playing time on evaluating our various young players.

After this year, we should hopefully have some core pieces in place, with the next wave of guys (primarily Schultz & Smith) reaching the show, and more intel on our other top prospects.  We will be better situated to spend at that time.  I am not 100% against giving up picks for free agents, but it’s got to be for a star or a B tier guy that puts you over the top.  We are simply not at the point where we should be sacrificing long-term talent accumulation for win now moves.

[Balta1701]

45 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You previously mentioned waiting until next year to start signing good free agents. Who do you like in next winter’s class? I included a link to the players above. Won’t the Sox be forgetting a 2nd rounder and international money?

While I sincerely doubt the White Sox would have the stones, Kyle Tucker covers a lot of this team's needs. Corner OF, true 5 tool player, power, LH hitter, postseason experience.

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

like the international bonus pool they forfeited last year by not using?

To be fair, the PBO, GM, and LatAm Director are all gone and those are the guys who arranged the deals in that signing class.  We shouldn’t punish the current regime for something outside of their control.  It’s clear that they value the DR more than their predecessors, so hopefully we’ll finally address our shortcomings there.   Regardless, you should never make future decisions based on past mistakes.  Not using your full slot value is unacceptable and if that trend continues we know who to blame.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

To be fair, the PBO, GM, and LatAm Director are all gone and those are the guys who arranged the deals in that signing class.  We shouldn’t punish the current regime for something outside of their control.  It’s clear that they value the DR more than their predecessors, so hopefully we’ll finally address our shortcomings there.   Regardless, you should never make future decisions based on past mistakes.  Not using your full slot value is unacceptable and if that trend continues we know who to blame.

To me it  be really, really, really weird that every single year Marco Paddy came back to the Sox and said there isn't enough guys to sign down here, take back this couple of million dollars.  That decision almost certainly came from higher up, but how much higher up is the question.  It almost felt like an intentional strategy to leave the DR on the table in exchange for maybe getting Cubans in the current year, or the Sox refused to negotiate with the younger kids and because of that were cut out of most negotiated with most kids because they were already signed.  Whose strategy and directives those were is very important here because if it was Jerry refusing to commit to 13/14 year olds, that same guy is still in charge.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Do you actually want to win a World Series eventually or be stuck the baseball equivalent of NBA hell?  Because it seems like you want to make moves that make us a little better next year but won’t push us to competitiveness all while destroying real long term value for the org.  And beyond just forfeiting draft picks and international slot in 2025, you are also likely weakening your draft position in the 2026 and eating payroll flexibility on dudes approaching their mid 30’s.  All because rebuilding the right way is boring and takes too long.

But.......they don't rebuild the right way. They're not gonna build a team that gives 5 consecutive division titles and a ws. They're just not. So rather that a s%*# rebuild and losing 100 a year, how about a s%*# rebuild and they have a .500 team that might luck into a playoff spot? One deep, total rebuild was enough. Spend some money and give a palatable product. 

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

To me it  be really, really, really weird that every single year Marco Paddy came back to the Sox and said there isn't enough guys to sign down here, take back this couple of million dollars.  That decision almost certainly came from higher up, but how much higher up is the question.  It almost felt like an intentional strategy to leave the DR on the table in exchange for maybe getting Cubans in the current year, or the Sox refused to negotiate with the younger kids and because of that were cut out of most negotiated with most kids because they were already signed.  Whose strategy and directives those were is very important here because if it was Jerry refusing to commit to 13/14 year olds, that same guy is still in charge.

I honestly believe a big driver of it was ethical (not liking the idea of negotiating with kids and their handlers) and Jerry is to blame for that.  But the hope is that Getz has somehow convinced Jerry that it’s the price of doing business and we will continue to be at a massive disadvantage if we don’t get serious about the DR.  I mean, all Getz would have to do is show him our top prospect list and do an ROI analysis on LatAm signings to prove how much value we’ve left on the table with this Cuban & Venezuela heavy strategy.  And so far under Getz, it does seem like we are attempting to make progress there…it’s just going to take a long ass time to confirm and bare any fruit.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I sincerely doubt the White Sox would have the stones, Kyle Tucker covers a lot of this team's needs. Corner OF, true 5 tool player, power, LH hitter, postseason experience.

Wait, the dude that’s gonna be looking for a $300M+ contract? You can’t be serious. We’ve already been down this road before. I’m asking which realistic targets would you all be interested in? And by realistic, I mean no more than $100M. Quite frankly, I can’t imagine a guy like Alonso is realistic either but players like Kim and Santander certainly are.

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Wait, the dude that’s gonna be looking for a $300M+ contract? You can’t be serious. We’ve already been down this road before. I’m asking which realistic targets would you all be interested in? And by realistic, I mean no more than $100M. Quite frankly, I can’t imagine a guy like Alonso is realistic either but players like Kim and Santander certainly are.

He literally starts the paragraph with “I seriously doubt the Sox have the stones” so no, he’s not serious.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

But.......they don't rebuild the right way. They're not gonna build a team that gives 5 consecutive division titles and a ws. They're just not. So rather that a s%*# rebuild and losing 100 a year, how about a s%*# rebuild and they have a .500 team that might luck into a playoff spot? One deep, total rebuild was enough. Spend some money and give a palatable product. 

How are three B tier free agents, one who will miss a chunk of the season, turn a 41 win team into a .500 team?  Again, the current talent level is atrocious and we aren’t lucking into anything next regardless of who we sign.

I totally agree a $60M payroll is absurd, but spending it on guys who will likely begin regressing on day 1 and will cost on picks and slot dollars on top of it isn’t the right strategy.  There are long-term consequences to these type of signings and now is not the time to incur them.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

He literally starts the paragraph with “I seriously doubt the Sox have the stones” so no, he’s not serious.

Right so why bring him up? Yea, Juan Soto and Alex Bregman would be great too but it’s not realistic knowing how the franchise operates.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

like the international bonus pool they forfeited last year by not using?

I'm not understanding. Are you saying the White Sox should forfeit as much international money as possible by signing the QO free agents that other teams have waited to the end of the off-season on? At some point, the White Sox have to get their international portion cooking. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How are three B tier free agents, one who will miss a chunk of the season, turn a 41 win team into a .500 team?  Again, the current talent level is atrocious and we aren’t lucking into anything next regardless of who we sign.

I totally agree a $60M payroll is absurd, but spending it on guys who will likely begin regressing on day 1 and will cost on picks and slot dollars on top of it isn’t the right strategy.  There are long-term consequences to these type of signings and now is not the time to incur them.

You still haven’t answered my question. You said next winter would be the time to start these types of signings. So who are you signing to start the long road back to competitiveness? Keep in mind, it appears the franchise fully intends to start the clock on 6 of its 7 top prospects this year so the clock is already ticking.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Wait, the dude that’s gonna be looking for a $300M+ contract? You can’t be serious. We’ve already been down this road before. I’m asking which realistic targets would you all be interested in? And by realistic, I mean no more than $100M. Quite frankly, I can’t imagine a guy like Alonso is realistic either but players like Kim and Santander certainly are.

if a $100 million or less contract is all that's realistic for Reinsdorf, then frankly I don't care. If Jerry Reinsdorf thinks he can half-ass another rebuild, without being willing to fill in gaps like an adult, then it's not worth talking about. 

Perhaps the number 1 biggest problem with this franchise in the last rebuild was his unwillingness to go out of his comfort zone, on contracts, scouting, drafting, expanding his staff, player philosophies, Jason benietti being too smart, etc.

If nothing has changed, then yeah to hell with him. He can enjoy his 4th place finishes.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

if a $100 million or less contract is all that's realistic for Reinsdorf, then frankly I don't care. If Jerry Reinsdorf thinks he can half-ass another rebuild, without being willing to fill in gaps like an adult, then it's not worth talking about. 

Perhaps the number 1 biggest problem with this franchise in the last rebuild was his unwillingness to go out of his comfort zone, on contracts, scouting, drafting, expanding his staff, player philosophies, Jason benietti being too smart, etc.

If nothing has changed, then yeah to hell with him. He can enjoy his 4th place finishes.

Can’t teach an old dog new tricks so you have to operate within that framework. I guess it’s a lost cause and the team will never win the division again under Jerry?

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not understanding. Are you saying the White Sox should forfeit as much international money as possible by signing the QO free agents that other teams have waited to the end of the off-season on? At some point, the White Sox have to get their international portion cooking. 

No I'm saying its difficult to insist that spending their full international pool is important when they didn't do so last year and are already talking about trading more again this year.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How are three B tier free agents, one who will miss a chunk of the season, turn a 41 win team into a .500 team?  Again, the current talent level is atrocious and we aren’t lucking into anything next regardless of who we sign.

I totally agree a $60M payroll is absurd, but spending it on guys who will likely begin regressing on day 1 and will cost on picks and slot dollars on top of it isn’t the right strategy.  There are long-term consequences to these type of signings and now is not the time to incur them.

Long term consequences....like 3 consecutive 100 loss seasons? Having to constantly look 5 years down the road for a watchable team? I'm fine with the consequences. Sign real major leaguers.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Long term consequences....like 3 consecutive 100 loss seasons? Having to constantly look 5 years down the road for a watchable team? I'm fine with the consequences. Sign real major leaguers.

Good point. We’re worried about the potential consequences of signing productive major league players when the team is about to embark on its third consecutive 100+ loss season? 😂 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Wait, the dude that’s gonna be looking for a $300M+ contract? You can’t be serious. We’ve already been down this road before. I’m asking which realistic targets would you all be interested in? And by realistic, I mean no more than $100M. Quite frankly, I can’t imagine a guy like Alonso is realistic either but players like Kim and Santander certainly are.

Tucker is going to be looking for much more than $300M (my guess $500M+), so I think we can officially cross him off the list.

Vlad Guerrero will likely be over $300M too, but is much more in the realm of possibility.  Like theoretically should be possible to sign if we offered $250M to Machado a half decade ago, but Jerry likely going to Jerry as we all now.

A cheaper corner infield alternative would be Munetaka Murakami from Japan.  Your list didn’t include any Japanese free agents, but there are usually a couple bigger names posted each cycle.

Ultimately, that free agent list should show you we need to do most of the heavy lifting ourselves and so far we done exactly zero reps.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Look at the signing thread.

He was never a good move for this franchise...just like the Royals were wise to move on from him when they did.

They bought at a high point and now are still looking to sell at a discount with few takers.

 

And your main argument that he's sort of an average player is completely writing off FG evaluations???

Sounds like you and Jeremy Haber would get along great.

I don't get this dig. I didn't like the signing of Benintendi, and the Sox paid a premium to get him in house, the same premium many here say we should throw at any free agent just to prove Reinsdorf wants to "win". 

One WAR model thinks Benintendi has been putting out average production for most of his career, 17-22. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he has always sucked his entire life. 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Tucker is going to be looking for much more than $300M (my guess $500M+), so I think we can officially cross him off the list.

Vlad Guerrero will likely be over $300M too, but is much more in the realm of possibility.  Like theoretically should be possible to sign if we offered $250M to Machado a half decade ago, but Jerry likely going to Jerry as we all now.

A cheaper corner infield alternative would be Munetaka Murakami from Japan.  Your list didn’t include any Japanese free agents, but there are usually a couple bigger names posted each cycle.

Ultimately, that free agent list should show you we need to do most of the heavy lifting ourselves and so far we done exactly zero reps.

Good luck beating the west coast teams on any worthwhile Japanese signings. When’s the last one we signed? Iguchi? That free agent list also shows me that it’s going to take several offseasons to maybe sign 3 or 4 productive major leaguers. The options are very slim. Sometimes you can’t just sit and wait to thread the needle on the perfect window when you’re a franchise like the Sox. You have to be proactive rather than always reactive.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Good point. We’re worried about the potential consequences of signing productive major league players when the team is about to embark on its third consecutive 100+ loss season? 😂 

All I'm sayin. Ive got two young kids who love baseball. But the Sox have only moderately held their attention. I grew up in the early 90s watching my family live and die with every pitch. Id like to share that with them before they get tired of the shittiness and move on to other teams. This crap is having a much bigger effect on the long term fanbase than Jerry realizes. The hell with down the road. Our last rebuild was interrupted by an f'n pandemic. Who knows what 5 years brings. I want watchable baseball from my favorite team. 

[fathom]

8 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

All I'm sayin. Ive got two young kids who love baseball. But the Sox have only moderately held their attention. I grew up in the early 90s watching my family live and die with every pitch. Id like to share that with them before they get tired of the shittiness and move on to other teams. This crap is having a much bigger effect on the long term fanbase than Jerry realizes. The hell with down the road. Our last rebuild was interrupted by an f'n pandemic. Who knows what 5 years brings. I want watchable baseball from my favorite team. 

I have three near teenagers and they couldn’t even name more than 3 Sox players on the roster right now.  It’s so far from being cool being a Sox fan now.  I even noticed that the number of Sox hats being worn at travel tournaments was way, way down last year.  I hope JR is proud of how he’s let this organization collapse.

[WestEddy]

40 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

But.......they don't rebuild the right way. They're not gonna build a team that gives 5 consecutive division titles and a ws. They're just not. So rather that a s%*# rebuild and losing 100 a year, how about a s%*# rebuild and they have a .500 team that might luck into a playoff spot? One deep, total rebuild was enough. Spend some money and give a palatable product. 

They would have to sign Bregman, Santander, Alonzo, Kim, Flaherty, one of the closers, and they might push up to 75 wins. Then these guys would start getting old, and the team would suck again for 10 years. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

All I'm sayin. Ive got two young kids who love baseball. But the Sox have only moderately held their attention. I grew up in the early 90s watching my family live and die with every pitch. Id like to share that with them before they get tired of the shittiness and move on to other teams. This crap is having a much bigger effect on the long term fanbase than Jerry realizes. The hell with down the road. Our last rebuild was interrupted by an f'n pandemic. Who knows what 5 years brings. I want watchable baseball from my favorite team. 

These people arguing let’s rebuild the “right” way, it’s like they didn’t watch the Sox the past 15 years. What makes them think that will lead to anything other than another lost 15 years? People ripped on Kenny for much of the 2000s when it seemed like he was just throwing s%*# at the wall every year without a long term plan but man I’d kill for those days again.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

They would have to sign Bregman, Santander, Alonzo, Kim, Flaherty, one of the closers, and they might push up to 75 wins. Then these guys would start getting old, and the team would suck again for 10 years. 

How’s that any different than the past 10 years?