Would we be

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

I have three near teenagers and they couldn’t even name more than 3 Sox players on the roster right now.  It’s so far from being cool being a Sox fan now.  I even noticed that the number of Sox hats being worn at travel tournaments was way, way down last year.  I hope JR is proud of how he’s let this organization collapse.

I hear you. My pops is in his mid 70s and I have three kids under the age of 12. f*** this mindset of waiting another 4-5 years before trying to win again because we’re worried about losing a 2nd round pick or “blocking” marginal prospects. Maybe some fans are fine with losing 100+ games for another 2 or 3 years but I can assure you most aren’t, at least of those that still remain. 

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

These people arguing let’s rebuild the “right” way, it’s like they didn’t watch the Sox the past 15 years. What makes them think that will lead to anything other than another lost 15 years? People ripped on Kenny for much of the 2000s when it seemed like he was just throwing s%*# at the wall every year without a long term plan but man I’d kill for those days again.

I’m starting to think that Jerry ditched his “2nd place is great” mantra and is now embracing the perpetual rebuild due to how much money it saves him.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I’m starting to think that Jerry ditched his “2nd place is great” mantra and is now embracing the perpetual rebuild due to how much money it saves him.

Spot on. And he’s even convinced a number of loyal fans this is the way. It’s unbelievable.

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

These people arguing let’s rebuild the “right” way, it’s like they didn’t watch the Sox the past 15 years. What makes them think that will lead to anything other than another lost 15 years? People ripped on Kenny for much of the 2000s when it seemed like he was just throwing s%*# at the wall every year without a long term plan but man I’d kill for those days again.

No, actually, it's like we did. Drafts were about first rounders who needed little polish before being promoted. International signings were about picking up fully developed professionals. There was little investment in development. 

Now we have a guy whose focus is on building up our minor league system. The Sox already have a top 5 system, mostly based on changes they've made to pitching development. If you would kill for the days of KW grabbing up Rob Mackowiak and Juan Pierre to fill holes, or rushing Gordon Beckham ahead of time, then you're not really arguing for a team with sustainable success. You're rooting for garbage roster churn. Can't wait for the next Adam Dunn to lead us to the "promised" land. 

[fathom]

Problem is JR has let this organization fall so much in just a few years, there’s no path to a quick fix.  Considering how bad attendance will be in 2025, I’m sure they will have to cut payroll again next offseason.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

38 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Can’t teach an old dog new tricks so you have to operate within that framework. I guess it’s a lost cause and the team will never win the division again under Jerry?

If say that pretty accurate given his age.

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I don't get this dig. I didn't like the signing of Benintendi, and the Sox paid a premium to get him in house, the same premium many here say we should throw at any free agent just to prove Reinsdorf wants to "win". 

One WAR model thinks Benintendi has been putting out average production for most of his career, 17-22. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he has always sucked his entire life. 

 

Why are you going back to his prime years with the Red Sox to evaluate him when he clearly wasn't that player any longer?

2.3 is the total fWAR for those those three prior years...or 0.7-0.8 per season.

We bought him off a 2.1 fWAR anomaly...roughly a 1 fWAR to $7.5 million valuation, pretty standard except buying off a high.

Not surprisingly, worth -0.6 since then in two Sox seasons as his defense has collapsed and he never had a strong arm to begin with.  Which is why the White Sox are going to wait another 2-3 years to unload him unless they send prospects with or eat 60-75% of that salary.

Edited Monday at 11:00 PM by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

18 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

These people arguing let’s rebuild the “right” way, it’s like they didn’t watch the Sox the past 15 years. What makes them think that will lead to anything other than another lost 15 years? People ripped on Kenny for much of the 2000s when it seemed like he was just throwing s%*# at the wall every year without a long term plan but man I’d kill for those days again.

Isn't that exactly what I'm saying will happen if they try to sign a bunch of mid-level free agents again? DHs and relievers? That's exactly. how they got themselves in trouble.

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You still haven’t answered my question. You said next winter would be the time to start these types of signings. So who are you signing to start the long road back to competitiveness? Keep in mind, it appears the franchise fully intends to start the clock on 6 of its 7 top prospects this year so the clock is already ticking.

I can’t answer that question yet because I don’t know which spots are going to look our main holes and how many there will.  If we get lucky this year and can feel confident in our 3B, SS, 2B, & C options moving forward then it’s easier to dream big on going after more impactful free agents.  I’d feel even better if we could get a legit CF prospect we believe in for Robert at the deadline.

But as a hypothetical, instead of Alonso, I’d pencil in Munetaka Murakami as a potential addition to fill 1B for us.  And there are actually quite a few decent OF options in that pre 2027 offseason class that will be older and will 100% be in our price range.  Let’s just say Seiya Suzuki to fit with the Japanese theme.  And that would leave money for a quality SP, bullpen help, and other needs.

How does this potential 2027 lineup work?

1. TBD, CF - Robert trade
2. Montgomery, SS*
3. Suzuki, LF
4. Murakami, 1B*
5. Montgomery, RF#
6. Ramos, 3B
7. Quero, DH#
8. Teel, CA*
9. Meidroth, 2B (or Baldwin#)

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, actually, it's like we did. Drafts were about first rounders who needed little polish before being promoted. International signings were about picking up fully developed professionals. There was little investment in development. 

Now we have a guy whose focus is on building up our minor league system. The Sox already have a top 5 system, mostly based on changes they've made to pitching development. If you would kill for the days of KW grabbing up Rob Mackowiak and Juan Pierre to fill holes, or rushing Gordon Beckham ahead of time, then you're not really arguing for a team with sustainable success. You're rooting for garbage roster churn. Can't wait for the next Adam Dunn to lead us to the "promised" land. 

And yet, they won the division 3 times as well as a World Series between 2000 and 2008. That’s about the closest thing to sustainable success you’re going to see from a White Sox team owned by Jerry. It’s been a complete black hole since then.

[WestEddy]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No I'm saying its difficult to insist that spending their full international pool is important when they didn't do so last year and are already talking about trading more again this year.

That would suggest you don't understand that agreements are made years in advance of the actual signings. The White Sox will honor what Paddy has lined up already. The trade of international space to the Dodgers for Aldrin Batista and Maximo Martinez was a great use of signing space. I don't see the problem making more trades of that type while deals for 14 year olds are lined up to sign in future classes. 

It's almost like a person has fallen down the stairs a bunch of times, and when he says it's important to stop falling down the stairs, everybody else starts arguing with him because "history". 

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Why are you going back to his prime years with the Red Sox to evaluate him when he clearly wasn't that player any longer?

He was in his walk year. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. I applaud you for being able to look at Benintendi's last two seasons, and coming to the conclusion that he wasn't a good baseball player in those two seasons. Welcome to reality. 

[Balta1701]

44 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Can’t teach an old dog new tricks so you have to operate within that framework. I guess it’s a lost cause and the team will never win the division again under Jerry?

I mean, there's a reason why they have 1 division title since 2005. I can't say they'd never win the division again because "Years when the rest of the division is bad" do happen. But yeah, it's going to be rare. 

If you are signing guys with a $100 million limit, you get what we've seen recently - relievers who go up and down in their performance or get hurt, guys who are at the end of their career who break down rapidly, guys who no other team wants due to horrid attitudes, and mid- or low-level players who either fall apart or get put in roles where they aren't compatible. 

Chris Getz has taken steps to improve the White Sox's system and made some trades he had to make. But, if I were to look at their system right now and their system mid-2017 and ask which I think is better, I would say the mid-2017 system without any question or doubt in my mind, and we saw how that worked when they tried to supplement it with guys at the end of their career in Keuchel, Lynn, Grandal - they broke down. If they try to supplement their current system in the same way, with mid-level free agents who break down, DHs, and poor character "leaders", it is probably a lost cause. 

[Chicago White Sox]

46 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Good point. We’re worried about the potential consequences of signing productive major league players when the team is about to embark on its third consecutive 100+ loss season? 😂 

Again, you seem more concerned about wining 60 games next year than ever winning a World Series again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I’m starting to think that Jerry ditched his “2nd place is great” mantra and is now embracing the perpetual rebuild due to how much money it saves him.

This is undoubtedly true and he's investing his savings on propping up the Bulls and Blackhawks by investing in the real estate around the UC with whichever Wirtz is running the Hawks.

I am however still keeping a sideways eye on the 78 project even though most of us seem to think it's dead. But Lip has a source who seems to think it'll get done. Not that I believe in fairy tales but maybe something rises from the ashes eventually.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I can’t answer that question yet because I don’t know which spots are going to look our main holes and how many there will.  If we get lucky this year and can feel confident in our 3B, SS, 2B, & C options moving forward then it’s easier to dream big on going after more impactful free agents.  I’d feel even better if we could get a legit CF prospect we believe in for Robert at the deadline.

But as a hypothetical, instead of Alonso, I’d pencil in Munetaka Murakami as a potential addition to fill 1B for us.  And there are actually quite a few decent OF options in that pre 2027 offseason class that will be older and will 100% be in our price range.  Let’s just say Seiya Suzuki to fit with the Japanese theme.  And that would leave money for a quality SP, bullpen help, and other needs.

How does this potential 2027 lineup work?

1. TBD, CF - Robert trade
2. Montgomery, SS*
3. Suzuki, LF
4. Murakami, 1B*
5. Montgomery, RF#
6. Ramos, 3B
7. Quero, DH#
8. Teel, CA*
9. Meidroth, 2B (or Baldwin#)

Except we lack any scouting or relationships in the Pacific Rim.

I have spent more time in Japan during these last 2-3 years than anyone professionally associated with the White Sox.

We have the same brand image with these players that we do in the Dominican.

One step would be bringing Iguchi back as more than a token.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He was in his walk year. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make. I applaud you for being able to look at Benintendi's last two seasons, and coming to the conclusion that he wasn't a good baseball player in those two seasons. Welcome to reality. 

That it was a dumb signing and nearly everyone in that thread had the same concerns...Hahn simply ran out of FA's to sign and panicked on the years in order to secure him when nobody else was offering more than three...not even the Yankees.

Exactly how he ended up with Dallas Keuchel when a better but more expensive pitcher in Wheeler was needed...

Edited Monday at 11:09 PM by caulfield12

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And yet, they won the division 3 times as well as a World Series between 2000 and 2008. That’s about the closest thing to sustainable success you’re going to see from a White Sox team owned by Jerry. It’s been a complete black hole since then.

Well the guy who was in charge for your 9 year window was also in charge for the next 4 years, and was the VP 11 seasons after that. 

KW had a core of cheap, home-grown players (Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Rowand, Thomas, Konerko, Lee, Ordonez), and he added to it. And this all springs from the original "core" they built through the minors of Thomas, Ventura, Durham, Guillen, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, Konerko, One-Dog. 

They didn't start that by signing a bunch of over-priced, aging, B tier free agents. 

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That it was a dumb signing and nearly everyone in that thread had the same concerns...Hahn simply ran out of FA's to sign and panicked on the years in order to secure him when nobody else was offering more than three...not even the Yankees.

Exactly how he ended up with Dallas Keuchel when a better but more expensive pitcher in Wheeler was needed...

I sure hope you find the guy you're arguing with. I never said Benintendi was a good signing. But it was a signing. 

[Chicago White Sox]

40 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Good luck beating the west coast teams on any worthwhile Japanese signings. When’s the last one we signed? Iguchi? That free agent list also shows me that it’s going to take several offseasons to maybe sign 3 or 4 productive major leaguers. The options are very slim. Sometimes you can’t just sit and wait to thread the needle on the perfect window when you’re a franchise like the Sox. You have to be proactive rather than always reactive.

You’re still not getting this…we have no core whatsoever.  Your math is take a 41 win team add three B tier free agents worth like 10 wins if healthy and hope that gets us to the promise land.  To act like Anthony Santander is the dude we should be proactive on and lose valuable draft and LatAm slot dollars when there will be similar free agents available in a couple years when we actually need him is wild to me.

I get it…watching s%*# baseball sucks.  But for millionth time, paying market value for free agents in or entering their 30’s is a recipe for disaster if your team isn’t built to win right now.  If you lack the patience to endure what needs to be done, then I’d recommend a different hobby in the interim as this next season is going to be ugly no matter what we do.  Trying to rush things for a token amount of entertainment value is simply not the answer.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

21 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Again, you seem more concerned about wining 60 games next year than ever winning a World Series again.

60 wins is still a 100+ loss season

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re still not getting this…we have no core whatsoever.  Your math is take a 41 win team add three B tier free agents worth like 10 wins if healthy and hope that gets us to the promise land.  To act like Anthony Santander is the dude we should be proactive on and lose valuable draft and LatAm slot dollars when there will be similar free agents available in a couple years when we actually need him is wild to me.

I get it…watching s%*# baseball sucks.  But for millionth time, paying market value for free agents in or entering their 30’s is a recipe for disaster if your team isn’t built to win right now.  If you lack the patience to endure what needs to be done, then I’d recommend a different hobby in the interim as this next season is going to be ugly no matter what we do.  Trying to rush things for a token amount of entertainment value is simply not the answer.

Oh trust me, I won’t be tuning in much at all this season just like I watched less white Sox baseball in 2024 than I have for any other season in my adult life. Sadly, many are doing the same and it’s resulting in a self-fulfilling prophecy as Jerry destroys the franchise. I wonder if there will be any fans left as they patiently wait another 5 years for the Sox to win 85 games.

Edited Monday at 11:26 PM by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

And to my point above, the Orioles did their rebuild the “right” way. Problem is they’ve been shitty for so long that they couldn’t even sell out their home playoff games in 2024. Awesome.

https://baltimorepositive.com/why-are-there-so-many-empty-seats-at-camden-yards-not-full-for-an-orioles-playoff-game/

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And to my point above, the Orioles did their rebuild the “right” way. Problem is they’ve been shitty for so long that they couldn’t even sell out their home playoff games in 2024. Awesome.

https://baltimorepositive.com/why-are-there-so-many-empty-seats-at-camden-yards-not-full-for-an-orioles-playoff-game/

They should have signed a big time 1b.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They should have signed a big time 1b.

No, they shouldn’t have been shitty for so long by intentionally tanking and lost a large chunk of their fanbase.