Would we be

[Lip Man 1]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

29 votes for the expansion dollars versus one vote for the market.  Tell me how that works out.  You keep talking about greed for expansion dollars, but the ignore the valuation of a south side franchise. 29 teams have an incentive here that the Cubs don't 

I hope we never have to come to the point where either one of our positions is tested in reality.

 

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

29 votes for the expansion dollars versus one vote for the market.  Tell me how that works out.  You keep talking about greed for expansion dollars, but the ignore the valuation of a south side franchise. 29 teams have an incentive here that the Cubs don't 

Just because the Sox core tv product has been eroded to now hoping to give it away for free doesn't mean there's not a huge market share there for the right owner who invests efficiently and insightfully into his product.

Unfortunately it's currently worth almost less than zero in the hands of JR...unless they can somehow sell enough advertising and sponsorships in future Sox seasons (and stadiums) to offset production costs.

 

But we keep heading for Nashville King on this extended trajectory of doom crossed with Major League the movie with a lot more star power than the current White Sox.

 

[WestEddy]

33 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Were they a consistent 70 win team in the 90s and 2000s? And yea, the Sox were still drawing close to 2M fans prior to the 2016 rebuild, even during seasons in which they’d win 70 something games. They’ll be lucky to draw 1M in each of the next few seasons. Hand wave it away all you want but they are going serious long term damage to the fanbase, damage that it may never recover from.

You ignored the fact that the 90's teams started with a strong and deep core of home grown stars that the Sox added to. They also had a 2nd wave of prospects hit between 97 and 2001. 

[WestEddy]

26 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Of course attendance peaked spring the World Series but drawing 1.75-2M between 2010 and 2016 was a perfectly acceptable level by historical standards. Attendance has really fallen off since 2016 outside of the one year in 2022 and the deterioration is accelerating. Attendance in 2024 was the lowest it’s been since 1999 and I expect it to drop further the next couple years. 

It's weird that our fanbase became "undamaged" in 2022. LOL. Once the Sox start winning again, attendance will pick up. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You ignored the fact that the 90's teams started with a strong and deep core of home grown stars that the Sox added to. They also had a 2nd wave of prospects hit between 97 and 2001. 

But they also weathered a strike and loss of 1994 that wiped out 33% of the fanbase in one fell swoop.  Decimated the Rust Belt teams, really.

Cincy Detroit Pitt Baltimore Minnesota Southside Cleveland. 

Heck, KC still not the same even after 2014-15.  They didn't draw all that well despite a playoff run because all the one in that city flows to the Chiefs.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's weird that our fanbase became "undamaged" in 2022. LOL. Once the Sox start winning again, attendance will pick up. 

Then 1984 1994 2001 2006-2007 2009 and 2022-24 comes along to kill all hope lol.

If it's not that, Adam Dunn in 2011.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's weird that our fanbase became "undamaged" in 2022. LOL. Once the Sox start winning again, attendance will pick up. 

Not really. 2M isn’t undamaged coming off back to back playoff seasons and major stimulus money pumped into the economy for a consumer desperate for any and all forms of entertainment. 

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But they also weathered a strike and loss of 1994 that wiped out 33% of the fanbase in one fell swoop.  Decimated the Rust Belt teams, really.

Cincy Detroit Pitt Baltimore Minnesota Southside Cleveland. 

Heck, KC still not the same even after 2014-15.  They didn't draw all that well despite a playoff run because all the one in that city flows to the Chiefs.

What does that have to do with the "build from prospects" vs. "start with high priced FAs" debate?

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Not really. 2M isn’t undamaged coming off back to back playoff seasons and major stimulus money pumped into the economy for a consumer desperate for any and all forms of entertainment. 

Yes it is. COVID was still a thing in 2022. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

What does that have to do with the "build from prospects" vs. "start with high priced FAs" debate?

Adding free agents now or next winter isn’t “start with high priced free agents.” The Sox already have a top 5 farm system, one in which 6 of their top 7 prospects will be starting their mlb clock this year. Those guys will be under team control for 6 years if they aren’t extended. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with adding a couple good free agents to 4-5 year contracts now while the payroll is already sub $60M and then adding a few more over the next couple years. Look at the free agent list over the next couple years, it’s not pretty. that’s assuming all those guys actually hit free agency and aren’t extended first.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yes it is. COVID was still a thing in 2022. 

They finished 19th in attendance. Is that supposed to be impressive?

[Chicago White Sox]

41 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Of course attendance peaked spring the World Series but drawing 1.75-2M between 2010 and 2016 was a perfectly acceptable level by historical standards. Attendance has really fallen off since 2016 outside of the one year in 2022 and the deterioration is accelerating. Attendance in 2024 was the lowest it’s been since 1999 and I expect it to drop further the next couple years. 

2024 was the worst season in baseball history…it should have been the lowest attendance in like forever.  The team should only get better from this point forward so I don’t envision attendance dropping too much more, but obviously they need to fix this mess and fix it soon.  I think fundamental disagreement you and several of us have is that “soon” is relative.  You want to spend money to build a slightly better but still bad team whereas we think we should use 2025 as an opportunity to play a bunch of young players and see who sticks.  I don’t want to be bad for five years though…the anti-tanking rule won’t reward us.  However, we can still tank this year and try to get one very high pick while hopefully building out some subset of the core.  If that latter part works out as hoped, then we can start spending some money next offseason.  But even then, any goal of semi-competitiveness before 2027 is likely unrealistic.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

2024 was the worst season in baseball history…it should have been the lowest attendance in like forever.  The team should only get better from this point forward so I don’t envision attendance dropping too much more, but obviously they need to fix this mess and fix it soon.  I think fundamental disagreement you and several of us have is that “soon” is relative.  You want to spend money to build a slightly better but still bad team whereas we think we should use 2025 as an opportunity to play a bunch of young players and see who sticks.  I don’t want to be bad for five years though…the anti-tanking rule won’t reward us.  However, we can still tank this year and try to get one very high pick while hopefully building out some subset of the core.  If that latter part works out as hoped, then we can start spending some money next offseason.  But even then, any goal of semi-competitiveness before 2027 is likely unrealistic.

Attendance is for sure going to be worse this season than last. Jerry wouldn’t lower ticket prices unless he absolutely has to. How many other mlb franchises are lowering ticket prices this season?

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You ignored the fact that the 90's teams started with a strong and deep core of home grown stars that the Sox added to. They also had a 2nd wave of prospects hit between 97 and 2001. 

Kenny actually operated a legit farm system in his early days.

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Adding free agents now or next winter isn’t “start with high priced free agents.” The Sox already have a top 5 farm system, one in which 6 of their top 7 prospects will be starting their mlb clock this year. Those guys will be under team control for 6 years if they aren’t extended. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with adding a couple good free agents to 4-5 year contracts now while the payroll is already sub $60M and then adding a few more over the next couple years. Look at the free agent list over the next couple years, it’s not pretty. that’s assuming all those guys actually hit free agency and aren’t extended first.

But our major league roster is starting with zero.  Again, even last rebuild we had some pieces in place like Abreu, Timmy, & Rodon and we also had an even stronger farm system.  And guess what?  It failed because we couldn’t develop a second wave of prospects to come in and fill in the eventual gaps.  And right now, you want to do the same thing despite being at a weaker starting point.

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Adding free agents now or next winter isn’t “start with high priced free agents.” The Sox already have a top 5 farm system, one in which 6 of their top 7 prospects will be starting their mlb clock this year. Those guys will be under team control for 6 years if they aren’t extended. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with adding a couple good free agents to 4-5 year contracts now while the payroll is already sub $60M and then adding a few more over the next couple years. Look at the free agent list over the next couple years, it’s not pretty. that’s assuming all those guys actually hit free agency and aren’t extended first.

You just had this entire convo with Chicago White Sox dude. You won't acknowledge any of his points as being close to valid, so why do it again?

There are zero White Sox prospects who have established themselves in a role with the parent club. The fact that some players will get time on the ML squad isn't an automatic reason to start overpaying for tier B and C free agents. 

 

[WestEddy]

19 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They finished 19th in attendance. Is that supposed to be impressive?

White Sox attendance doesn't affect my life except that it's an easier experience going to games when attendance is low. 

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Attendance is for sure going to be worse this season than last. Jerry wouldn’t lower ticket prices unless he absolutely has to. How many other mlb franchises are lowering ticket prices this season?

I didn’t say it wouldn’t be worse, but I think we came close to bottoming out last year.  You just said we’d be lucky to crack 1M which would be like a 30% decrease.  I don’t see that happing.  There will still be a subset of season ticket holders and enough dumb promotions to keep us above that threshold.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

White Sox attendance doesn't affect my life except that it's an easier experience going to games when attendance is low. 

Ok but it’s a measuring stick for the fanbase. Do you have a better metric? You don’t think prolonged periods of bad baseball are having a long term impact on the fanbase? That they will just show up again like nothing ever happened once/if the team is ever good again? That seems highly unlikely to me.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I didn’t say it wouldn’t be worse, but I think we came close to bottoming out last year.  You just said we’d be lucky to crack 1M which would be like a 30% decrease.  I don’t see that happing.  There will still be a subset of season ticket holders and enough dumb promotions to keep us above that threshold.

I don’t work in Sox ticket sales but the way they responded to last season by lowering ticket prices for this season AND bringing back Soxfest reeks of desperation. I think we will all be shocked by attendance figures in 2025.

Edited yesterday at 01:29 AM by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Chicago White Sox]

And for the record, I could see some rationalize for Kim if you’re certain that Montgomery can’t handle SS and that you are getting Kim at a big discount.  And there are other free agents I would sign.  I mentioned in a different thread, I’d happily sign Hoffman to a three year deal and try him as a SP because if he clicks you have an asset with significant value and if not he’s still tradable as a reliever.  And there other rentals I’d look at, especially relievers and possibly a 1B type had we not brought Vaughn back.  But full stop, I’m not giving up draft picks coming off a 41 win season…that would be legit negligence on the front office’s behalf.

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Ok but it’s a measuring stick for the fanbase. Do you have a better metric? You don’t think prolonged periods of bad baseball are having a long term impact on the fanbase? That they will just show up again like nothing ever happened once/if the team is ever good again? That seems highly unlikely to me.

It's a measuring stick in as much as it's used to make facetious arguments. It measures nothing for me. When the Sox win, again, fans will come back. Maybe your kids won't. Oh well. Get new kids. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's a measuring stick in as much as it's used to make facetious arguments. It measures nothing for me. When the Sox win, again, fans will come back. Maybe your kids won't. Oh well. Get new kids. 

Thats certainly one way of telling me you have no better way of measuring the fanbase or popularity of the franchise

well, here’s another way of measuring it. It’s an oldie but a goodie. Couldn’t find anything on 2024 numbers but have to imagine they were even worse.

https://www.soxon35th.com/white-sox-see-largest-television-ratings-drop-in-mlb/

Edited yesterday at 01:49 AM by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Thats certainly one way of telling me you have no better way of measuring the fanbase or popularity of the franchise

When somebody resorts to quoting attendance figures, and the hyperbole of "the Sox must do the thing I want, or the children will stop caring!!!" - it says to me you understand your own argument is so silly that you need a sideshow. 

[southsider2k5]

39 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I didn’t say it wouldn’t be worse, but I think we came close to bottoming out last year.  You just said we’d be lucky to crack 1M which would be like a 30% decrease.  I don’t see that happing.  There will still be a subset of al season ticket holders and enough dumb promotions to keep us above that threshold.

Any longer term Sox fans can tell you the Sox fan base is very fair weather.  Put together a product worth seeing consistently and they will be back.  They always do.  But it isn't like an extra half a million tickets in 2025 hinge on this team signing an international SS that almost the entire fan base has no one knows who is.  This year is going to be bad.  Really bad.  A Benintendi level deal or 3 doesn't change that.