Could Getz Have an Actual Master Plan?

[Texsox]

Plan A - play the future. Give the young guys every chance to go from survival mode to contributing at the MLB level while at the MLB level with cheap veterans watching from the dugout. 

Plan B - have those cheap guys with MLB experience step in and be the crash test dummies if the kids need more off time or reps at the MiLB level. 

Or is Getz just trying to master his domain?

 

[WhiteSox2023]

Continuous rebuilds to maximize profits for Jerry until he sells the team / passes away.  If this second rebuild fails, rinse and repeat with a third one.

[zisk]

Getz is too dense to have a real plan. I will give him credit for one thing. He appears to have figured out that more baserunners equals more runs scored.

He's now trading for guys who will take a walk. Say what you will, but Ken williams and Rick hahn never could grasp that in over 20 years with the Sox.

That one single fact makes him an improvement. The true test though is being able to tell the difference between athetes and actual baseball players.

 

 

[2Deep]

NO

[Bob Sacamano]

Win cheaply as possible

[Timmy U]

I think he does have a plan, but it’s not sexy. Build industry-standard or better processes/practices in all departments — scouting, development, analytics — outcompete other teams for young talent, then have a choice of players to form the core of a team. That is, don’t count on three guys you got from one trade to save the franchise. Then when you have that base, spend more to retain/acquire players for sustained success. That is easier said than done and is going to take a lot of time and money to complete, but it is perfectly rational. On the Future Projection podcast this week, Carlos and Ben talked about the successful teams have excellent communication between FO, PD, and scouts. The Sox have been remedial in all three areas and had terrible communication. Getz is trying to fix that and get them to at least league-average. It was clear by the second half of 2021 that the Sox needed a complete demolition of their org, scrape it below the foundation and then build something entirely new. Last year was year -1, this is year 0. Building something competitive is gonna take a long time.

[Lyle Moooton]

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

I think he does have a plan, but it’s not sexy. Build industry-standard or better processes/practices in all departments — scouting, development, analytics — outcompete other teams for young talent, then have a choice of players to form the core of a team. That is, don’t count on three guys you got from one trade to save the franchise. Then when you have that base, spend more to retain/acquire players for sustained success. That is easier said than done and is going to take a lot of time and money to complete, but it is perfectly rational. On the Future Projection podcast this week, Carlos and Ben talked about the successful teams have excellent communication between FO, PD, and scouts. The Sox have been remedial in all three areas and had terrible communication. Getz is trying to fix that and get them to at least league-average. It was clear by the second half of 2021 that the Sox needed a complete demolition of their org, scrape it below the foundation and then build something entirely new. Last year was year -1, this is year 0. Building something competitive is gonna take a long time.

Great answer!

[Highland]

There are some fans who think that Getz does have a viable plan. Like TImmy U wrote, it isn't sexy.

The real rebuild is rebuilding the infrastructure. Getz fans say he is getting rid of the incompetents who dragged the team down for the last 20 years. He then is replacing them with good baseball men who know more than he does.

One drawback is that Getz has a CEO who doesn't want to spend. No matter how anyone rebuilds a team, eventually real money has to be spent. Young teams don't win championships.

One more drawback is that older fans won't have patience and will be skeptical of the whole process. They've the rebuild stories before. And the Sox have been bad for too long.

Perhaps Getz will succeed. Maybe he is smarter than we think. It is just hard to put up with more 100-loss seasons. 

[WBWSF]

The 2024 White Sox could not hit nor could the bullpen get anybody out. Getz has done nothing to improve those 2 areas. Evidently not improving those areas are part of his master plan and i think its terrible. i wish i could see this  nightmare turning around sometime soon but I can't see it happening.

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

The 2024 White Sox could not hit nor could the bullpen get anybody out. Getz has done nothing to improve those 2 areas. Evidently not improving those areas are part of his master plan and i think its terrible. i wish i could see this  nightmare turning around sometime soon but I can't see it happening.

Forget about the 2025 White Sox.  There was never a chance for them.  Be working on the 2028 White Sox.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I think he does have a plan, but it’s not sexy. Build industry-standard or better processes/practices in all departments — scouting, development, analytics — outcompete other teams for young talent, then have a choice of players to form the core of a team. That is, don’t count on three guys you got from one trade to save the franchise. Then when you have that base, spend more to retain/acquire players for sustained success. That is easier said than done and is going to take a lot of time and money to complete, but it is perfectly rational. On the Future Projection podcast this week, Carlos and Ben talked about the successful teams have excellent communication between FO, PD, and scouts. The Sox have been remedial in all three areas and had terrible communication. Getz is trying to fix that and get them to at least league-average. It was clear by the second half of 2021 that the Sox needed a complete demolition of their org, scrape it below the foundation and then build something entirely new. Last year was year -1, this is year 0. Building something competitive is gonna take a long time.

And by the way, we don’t need to be at the forefront of any key area.  The reality is if we can be average or slightly better at everything, we should be able to parlay our market size into a payroll edge over the rest of the division.  We don’t much crazier of a plan than that.

[Tony]

45 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And by the way, we don’t need to be at the forefront of any key area.  The reality is if we can be average or slightly better at everything, we should be able to parlay our market size into a payroll edge over the rest of the division.  We don’t much crazier of a plan than that.

Given what we know about how Jerry runs an organization, the above seems totally ass backwards to me. Signing a 300 million dollar player is never going to happen with JR alive. I question if we ever see a $100 million dollar contract given.

Player salaries will always tower over any other cost associated with the team when it comes to the balance sheet. Because of that, if I had the restrictions that I’m sure Getz has, I’d be investing as many resources as possible in pitching labs, new tech, and FO staff that can put you ahead of who you are competing against. FO expenses are fractions of a cost compared to player salaries. It’s why the Rays, Brewers, etc have been successful. 

Being “average” at everything is going to get you exactly what you’re asking for. A very average W-L record.

If you gave me these two choices:

A. Killer developmental staff but same payroll as Twins

B. Average staff but $35 million more in payroll room

I’d take Door A everytime for the White Sox 

[WestEddy]

Of course he does. It's a rebuild of the entire organization. The goal probably looks more like a healthy company somebody wants to buy as a "plug and play", rather than a championship by a certain date, tho I wouldn't rule that out, either. 

Edited 12 hours ago by WestEddy

[chitownsportsfan]

5 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I think he does have a plan, but it’s not sexy. Build industry-standard or better processes/practices in all departments — scouting, development, analytics — outcompete other teams for young talent, then have a choice of players to form the core of a team. That is, don’t count on three guys you got from one trade to save the franchise. Then when you have that base, spend more to retain/acquire players for sustained success. That is easier said than done and is going to take a lot of time and money to complete, but it is perfectly rational. On the Future Projection podcast this week, Carlos and Ben talked about the successful teams have excellent communication between FO, PD, and scouts. The Sox have been remedial in all three areas and had terrible communication. Getz is trying to fix that and get them to at least league-average. It was clear by the second half of 2021 that the Sox needed a complete demolition of their org, scrape it below the foundation and then build something entirely new. Last year was year -1, this is year 0. Building something competitive is gonna take a long time.

There is zero evidence the guy responsible for bottoming out in historic fashion is capable of creating any of that. Everything in your post requires excellence. We don't even have evidence that Getz is competent, let alone excellent.

I honestly cannot fathom posting that, it's just wishcasting.

we should be able to parlay our market size into a payroll edge over the rest of the division.  We don’t much crazier of a plan than that.

You've watched the JR White Sox for your entire life, right?

Edited 12 hours ago by chitownsportsfan

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

There is zero evidence the guy responsible for bottoming out in historic fashion is capable of creating any of that. Everything in your post requires excellence. We don't even have evidence that Getz is competent, let alone excellent.

I honestly cannot fathom posting that, it's just wishcasting.

Yes there is. The Sox rebuilt in the late 90's and they won a World Series. It's more wish-casting to be proclaiming that a guy who has taken a massive, positive first step in a rebuild is like a child in a glass shop. 

[chitownsportsfan]

18 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yes there is. The Sox rebuilt in the late 90's and they won a World Series. It's more wish-casting to be proclaiming that a guy who has taken a massive, positive first step in a rebuild is like a child in a glass shop. 

What in god's name are you talking about? Were you old enough to watch those teams? They never "rebuilt" anything. They just kept doubling and tripling down on the plan to win roughly 80 games and then they caught lightning in a bottle in 2005 (bless them for it) and then added a ton of talent for 2006 but completely collapsed as the pitching reverted back out of once every 50 years type lightning in a bottle.

Look at the actual records but also the pythags from the time period in question (far right column).

Basically it was a team that bounced around the expected variation in a .500 team on paper. There was no rebuild. They never sold off vets and turned them into prospects. They just kept being content with being average and got really fucking lucky with almost literally their entire pitching staff having a career year. As we saw immediately after the WS run, there was no secret sauce. On paper the 2006 team was much better, but of course regression happened hard and then reality hit for the next 7-8 years that the org was in decline. This of course culminated in the Hahn rebuild.

@WestEddy if you're gonna throw down internet stickers instead of articulating any sort of argument for your position you're even sillier than I thought.

Here's a simple test: did ANY SOX FAN AROUND AGE 35-60 ON THIS FORUM HEAD INTO THE 2005 SEASON THINKING THIS IS OUR WS YEAR?

Of course fucking not. Because there was no rebuild, there was no "contention window" it was just muddling along on the tail end of Frank's career, making profits for JR, and hoping KW could eventually pull something out of his ass with his trades and "80 cent on the dollar" type FA moves.

Edited 12 hours ago by chitownsportsfan

[Timmy U]

12 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

There is zero evidence the guy responsible for bottoming out in historic fashion is capable of creating any of that. Everything in your post requires excellence. We don't even have evidence that Getz is competent, let alone excellent.

I honestly cannot fathom posting that, it's just wishcasting.

 

 

You've watched the JR White Sox for your entire life, right?

I didn’t say I believed in him. I said that’s what I thought his plan was. As a wise man once said, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.”

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I didn’t say I believed in him. I said that’s what I thought his plan was. As a wise man once said, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.”

That's about where I think the default outlook should land. We are clearly in "show me" phase of Getz's grand plan. He gets 2 more years in most orgs, in JR's he might get two more decades.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

What in god's name are you talking about? Were you old enough to watch those teams? They never "rebuilt" anything. They just kept doubling and tripling down on the plan to win roughly 80 games and then they caught lightning in a bottle in 2005 (bless them for it) and then added a ton of talent for 2006 but completely collapsed as the pitching reverted back out of once every 50 years type lightning in a bottle.

Look at the actual records but also the pythags from the time period in question (far right column).

Basically it was a team that bounced around the expected variation in a .500 team on paper. There was no rebuild. They never sold off vets and turned them into prospects. They just kept being content with being average and got really fucking lucky with almost literally their entire pitching staff having a career year. As we saw immediately after the WS run, there was no secret sauce. On paper the 2006 team was much better, but of course regression happened hard and then reality hit for the next 7-8 years that the org was in decline. This of course culminated in the Hahn rebuild.

I'm 61, so calm down.

No, YOU got really lucky to live during a time that Jerry Reinsdorf put together a championship MLB team, and 6 NBA titles. 

The concept of "tanking" is relatively new. Before, a team just got bad, tried to appease vocally negative fans by making bad moves that chased after an extra win or two, and stayed bad. Reinsdorf owned the team when Larry Himes started climbing out of a 69-92 hole in 1989. They drafted and signed their way out of that. Schueler added a few key pieces, and built that 1993 team. That's what you kids would call a rebuild today. 

When they hit 75-86 in 1999, they were already into a rebuild. Ask your grandpa about it, but boy did Sox fans scream when they traded established veterans for rookies in 1997. That "rebuild" led to the 2000 playoff run, and then the 2005 World Series. 

I'm flattered that you thought my post was so smart and spot on that God, Himself, must have directed me to post that. I assure you, that wasn't the case. 

I get considering your own attitude "show me". That's fair. It's silly when we feel we have to go to superlatives ("absolutely zero evidence", "incompetent") to stave off a wave of negative pushback that is not anchored in what we're actually watching happen. 

You're welcome for the knowledge. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Given what we know about how Jerry runs an organization, the above seems totally ass backwards to me. Signing a 300 million dollar player is never going to happen with JR alive. I question if we ever see a $100 million dollar contract given.

Player salaries will always tower over any other cost associated with the team when it comes to the balance sheet. Because of that, if I had the restrictions that I’m sure Getz has, I’d be investing as many resources as possible in pitching labs, new tech, and FO staff that can put you ahead of who you are competing against. FO expenses are fractions of a cost compared to player salaries. It’s why the Rays, Brewers, etc have been successful. 

Being “average” at everything is going to get you exactly what you’re asking for. A very average W-L record.

If you gave me these two choices:

A. Killer developmental staff but same payroll as Twins

B. Average staff but $35 million more in payroll room

I’d take Door A everytime for the White Sox 

Maybe I didn’t phrase my post quite right, so let me try again.  The first step of any plan Chris Getz should be trying to execute is getting to average in terms of amateur scouting, international scouting, pro scouting, analytics (R&D), player development, strength & conditioning, etc.  We are so behind the times when it comes most of these areas the near-term goal is just to get to average.  By no means should we ever stop there…keep pushing to be great.  And I agree, prioritize building up your foundations over major league payroll.  That being said, I still think the Sox should be able to consistently outspend the rest of the division.  Whether that’s big free agents or simply extending our own core, the reality is having a financial advantage is a huge plus.

My main point is that Getz doesn’t have to be the next Andrew Friedman to turn us into a far more consistently competitive org.  There is a pretty straight forward path to get back in the thick of things and being in the AL Central plays a big part of that.  It will take time and obviously Jerry has to stop getting in the way with his risk aversion and his stubborn views on how baseball should work, but I truly believe we are so broken that even an unqualified dude like Getz can help make tremendous strides simply by bringing in new voices & ideas.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, Texsox said:

Plan A - play the future. Give the young guys every chance to go from survival mode to contributing at the MLB level while at the MLB level with cheap veterans watching from the dugout. 

Plan B - have those cheap guys with MLB experience step in and be the crash test dummies if the kids need more off time or reps at the MiLB level. 

Or is Getz just trying to master his domain?

 

I don't think his plan is play the future. I think it's to delay that as much as you can. I think the Project Birmingham in 2023 and the Barons championship in 2024 is part of what he's thinking . He wants as many prospects to grow together as possible.

Now you have to play some like Sosa and Vargas because they are out of options. I think he wants other guys to force the issue and they will start the year in the minors , whoever it may be. No need to start the clocks on guys . He wants competition but will be trying to preserve service time and options for as long as he can .

Maybe that's why he picked up Perez , Rojas, Tauchman, Slater and lots of veteran arms. He still wants to churn the minors so he hopes to flip 5 or 6 guys and he'll look for a lot more in lower minors now .

Sox in the Basement podcast has been spouting that Getz has a plan and it's a lot like what I've been talking about which is build the foundation , create minor leagues depth, create competition, grow together. They start off saying Getz was handed a crap sandwich and it's pretty much the same things you hear on Sox Machine with the occasional "not sure what he's doing in this instance" stance.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I think he does have a plan, but it’s not sexy. Build industry-standard or better processes/practices in all departments — scouting, development, analytics — outcompete other teams for young talent, then have a choice of players to form the core of a team. That is, don’t count on three guys you got from one trade to save the franchise. Then when you have that base, spend more to retain/acquire players for sustained success. That is easier said than done and is going to take a lot of time and money to complete, but it is perfectly rational. On the Future Projection podcast this week, Carlos and Ben talked about the successful teams have excellent communication between FO, PD, and scouts. The Sox have been remedial in all three areas and had terrible communication. Getz is trying to fix that and get them to at least league-average. It was clear by the second half of 2021 that the Sox needed a complete demolition of their org, scrape it below the foundation and then build something entirely new. Last year was year -1, this is year 0. Building something competitive is gonna take a long time.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Very few want to hear it and refuse to see it.

You're not saying it'll succeed.There's no way to know that or how long JR will live or even how long Getz remains . It's baby's 1st steps with toys on the floor and an old rug.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Tony said:

Given what we know about how Jerry runs an organization, the above seems totally ass backwards to me. Signing a 300 million dollar player is never going to happen with JR alive. I question if we ever see a $100 million dollar contract given.

Player salaries will always tower over any other cost associated with the team when it comes to the balance sheet. Because of that, if I had the restrictions that I’m sure Getz has, I’d be investing as many resources as possible in pitching labs, new tech, and FO staff that can put you ahead of who you are competing against. FO expenses are fractions of a cost compared to player salaries. It’s why the Rays, Brewers, etc have been successful. 

Being “average” at everything is going to get you exactly what you’re asking for. A very average W-L record.

If you gave me these two choices:

A. Killer developmental staff but same payroll as Twins

B. Average staff but $35 million more in payroll room

I’d take Door A everytime for the White Sox 

Now this is more like it. There should be no talk of our market size or JR will outspend division opponents. Just remove JR from the equation.

The future of the franchise is a big ? . Can't count on much of anything right now.

[Tony]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Maybe I didn’t phrase my post quite right, so let me try again.  The first step of any plan Chris Getz should be trying to execute is getting to average in terms of amateur scouting, international scouting, pro scouting, analytics (R&D), player development, strength & conditioning, etc.  We are so behind the times when it comes most of these areas the near-term goal is just to get to average.  By no means should we ever stop there…keep pushing to be great.  And I agree, prioritize building up your foundations over major league payroll.  That being said, I still think the Sox should be able to consistently outspend the rest of the division.  Whether that’s big free agents or simply extending our own core, the reality is having a financial advantage is a huge plus.

My main point is that Getz doesn’t have to be the next Andrew Friedman to turn us into a far more consistently competitive org.  There is a pretty straight forward path to get back in the thick of things and being in the AL Central plays a big part of that.  It will take time and obviously Jerry has to stop getting in the way with his risk aversion and his stubborn views on how baseball should work, but I truly believe we are so broken that even an unqualified dude like Getz can help make tremendous strides simply by bringing in new voices & ideas.

I agree with this, by the way. You didn’t really say that in your first post lol 

[Tony]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

No, YOU got really lucky to live during a time that Jerry Reinsdorf put together a championship MLB team, and 6 NBA titles. 

 

One of the most incredible statements ever made in the very long history of this site.