southsider2k5 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:34 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Nicky got ripped on quite a bit but I’d venture to say that there’s better than 50% odds the primary SS for the white Sox in 2025 produces less than Nicky’s 0.9 fWAR from last season. Expand I would say higher than that with the SS's we have in camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:36 PM, Bob Sacamano said: He would be fine on the deal he signed with the Cubs. MiLB worth $1.5M. They must be hoping Rojas hits like he did the first couple of months of last year. Expand Isn’t 0.9 fWAR for $4.3M a better WAR/$ rate than you’d expect from the average free agent signing? Heck, if the Sox got the same level of production on a WAR/$ basis from the rest of the 2024 roster they would have had a total team WAR of close to 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:39 PM, Chicago White Sox said: Nicky isn’t a 0.9 fWAR player if he plays SS everyday so I’m not sure I get the comparison Expand This also. His metrics which help him at 2B, would kill him at SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:41 PM, southsider2k5 said: This also. His metrics which help him at 2B, would kill him at SS. Expand The only season he played almost exclusively at SS was 2021. He had a 5.5 fWAR season. His defense was off the charts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 It's Colson and it's not up for debate. Is he good enough? I dunno, unlikely. Did he earn it? Absolutely he did. You're stunting his development by not making him the opening day SS. You're giving a middle finger to every prospect in the system (they're already doing that to the pitchers). This is the worst team of all time, right, and you have a "shortstop" who a lot of people consider to be one of the top young players yet to play in the MLB...so why would you play "some guy" over him? To help him develop? He doesn't need any more time in the minors. He was Rule 5 eligible, that's a sign it's time to join the major league roster. Starting him in Charlotte is just a vibe killer for the entire organization. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 7:06 PM, nrockway said: It's Colson and it's not up for debate. Is he good enough? I dunno, unlikely. Did he earn it? Absolutely he did. You're stunting his development by not making him the opening day SS. You're giving a middle finger to every prospect in the system (they're already doing that to the pitchers). This is the worst team of all time, right, and you have a "shortstop" who a lot of people consider to be one of the top young players yet to play in the MLB...so why would you play "some guy" over him? To help him develop? He doesn't need any more time in the minors. He was Rule 5 eligible, that's a sign it's time to join the major league roster. Starting him in Charlotte is just a vibe killer for the entire organization. Expand Colson Montgomery has absolutely not earned a big league promotion and calling him up would be the classic Rick Hahn callup based on things other than his performance. He clearly needs more time in the minors or he would have actually performed well in the minors. His fail to perform in the minors was a vibe killer for the organization, what would his failure to perform in the big leagues be? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:41 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Isn’t 0.9 fWAR for $4.3M a better WAR/$ rate than you’d expect from the average free agent signing? Heck, if the Sox got the same level of production on a WAR/$ basis from the rest of the 2024 roster they would have had a total team WAR of close to 30. Expand Yes, the problem is you can’t get to 30 with 0.9 WAR players, no matter what you pay them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) On 2/7/2025 at 7:06 PM, nrockway said: It's Colson and it's not up for debate. Is he good enough? I dunno, unlikely. Did he earn it? Absolutely he did. You're stunting his development by not making him the opening day SS. You're giving a middle finger to every prospect in the system (they're already doing that to the pitchers). This is the worst team of all time, right, and you have a "shortstop" who a lot of people consider to be one of the top young players yet to play in the MLB...so why would you play "some guy" over him? To help him develop? He doesn't need any more time in the minors. He was Rule 5 eligible, that's a sign it's time to join the major league roster. Starting him in Charlotte is just a vibe killer for the entire organization. Expand First bolded: Idk if I or anyone can say he "absolutely" earned it. Second bolded: huh? Third bolded: lol no it's not. He still has option years. It's not sink or swim time yet Edited February 7 by Bob Sacamano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 7:24 PM, Eminor3rd said: Yes, the problem is you can’t get to 30 with 0.9 WAR players, no matter what you pay them. Expand Right, you would need an average of 1.15 per player (assuming only 26 play all season) to hit 30 as a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 12:04 PM, oldsox said: The obvious players are Amaya Baldwin Colson Meidroth Rojas Sosa. Did I miss one? I don't know if any of them are any better than Nicky Lopez last year. My hope is that Colson takes over in Spring Training. We'll see. Expand I want nothing to do with Amaya. Rojas isn't a SS. Colson shouldn't sniff the big leagues until he earns it, but no earlier than mid May. Early season Sosa, Baldwin and Meidroth can make it work until Colson takes over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 7:50 PM, ChiSox59 said: I want nothing to do with Amaya. Rojas isn't a SS. Colson shouldn't sniff the big leagues until he earns it, but no earlier than mid May. Early season Sosa, Baldwin and Meidroth can make it work until Colson takes over. Expand I don't mind Amaya on the bench as the backup SS, but yeah, they can cut him when Colson comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 6:46 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: The only season he played almost exclusively at SS was 2021. He had a 5.5 fWAR season. His defense was off the charts. Expand 5 seasons ago. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 7:59 PM, southsider2k5 said: 5 seasons ago. Cool. Expand You said “His metrics which help him at 2B, would kill him at SS.” FALSE because his defense plays up at SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) On 2/7/2025 at 7:27 PM, Bob Sacamano said: First bolded: Idk if I or anyone can say he "absolutely" earned it. Second bolded: huh? Third bolded: lol no it's not. He still has option years. It's not sink or swim time yet Expand just my opinions. I think it's demoralizing to everyone, team and fanbase, if he doesn't get the job. I feel like he earned it simply by playing his way into his prospect status and already having done a year at Charlotte. You shouldn't make him start the year in Charlotte (though the weather is probably better). The team is bad anyway, he can learn against MLB pitching with the revamped MLB coaching staff. to your second point, I'm exaggerating, just talking about all the pitcher signings. On 2/7/2025 at 7:19 PM, Balta1701 said: Colson Montgomery has absolutely not earned a big league promotion and calling him up would be the classic Rick Hahn callup based on things other than his performance. He clearly needs more time in the minors or he would have actually performed well in the minors. His fail to perform in the minors was a vibe killer for the organization, what would his failure to perform in the big leagues be? Expand yeah that's largely my point but I don't know why that's the classic Rick Hahn thing. you can't say Colson is being rushed. He's been around a long time. I don't know that he clearly needs more time in the minors, I know he has to improve, but why will he improve in Charlotte but not Chicago? you can always send him down. are we trying to win games? don't you want to go to opening day and see Colson and not, I dunno, some guy? if so, why isn't that guy ha-seong kim? edit: actually I feel like the classic Rick Hahn move would be to ignore the human element entirely. that guy's a robot. Edited February 7 by nrockway rick hahn is a robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 8:46 PM, nrockway said: yeah that's largely my point but I don't know why that's the classic Rick Hahn thing. you can't say Colson is being rushed. He's been around a long time. I don't know that he clearly needs more time in the minors, I know he has to improve, but why will he improve in Charlotte but not Chicago? you can always send him down. are we trying to win games? don't you want to go to opening day and see Colson and not, I dunno, some guy? if so, why isn't that guy ha-seong kim? edit: actually I feel like the classic Rick Hahn move would be to ignore the human element entirely. that guy's a robot. Expand If you put Colson on a normal schedule he'd have been in AA most of last year, moving him up to AAA to start last year was an aggressive assignment - and it flat out, 100% did not work. He was bad, just not good, at AAA, no way around it. If you're trying to win games, you send him to Charlotte because he would have been worse than what was on the 121 loss roster last year. If you're trying to develop him, you send him to Charlotte where the competition is lower quality until he proves he's better than him. Make him hit his way up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 8:24 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You said “His metrics which help him at 2B, would kill him at SS.” FALSE because his defense plays up at SS Expand He's not the same player in 2025 as he was in 2021. If he was, he'd be a starting SS somewhere and not a near minimum wage free agent signing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 8:52 PM, Balta1701 said: If you put Colson on a normal schedule he'd have been in AA most of last year, moving him up to AAA to start last year was an aggressive assignment - and it flat out, 100% did not work. He was bad, just not good, at AAA, no way around it. If you're trying to win games, you send him to Charlotte because he would have been worse than what was on the 121 loss roster last year. If you're trying to develop him, you send him to Charlotte where the competition is lower quality until he proves he's better than him. Make him hit his way up. Expand You're probably right but I'm sure there's precedent in guys stinking it up at AAA and then doing fine in MLB the next year. I think this was discussed on this board before...definitely was because Jackson Merrill is the comp in a lot of ways...only Jackson stunk it up in AA and A+. Also think there's value in him being around the new manager and just, in general, being in Chicago. Again, you can always send him down. I might have a different opinion after Spring Training. I guess that's the true test. But he'll have to be pretty bad. He makes the team on vibes alone and I'm sticking to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) On 2/7/2025 at 8:59 PM, southsider2k5 said: He's not the same player in 2025 as he was in 2021. If he was, he'd be a starting SS somewhere and not a near minimum wage free agent signing. Expand I didn’t say he is but you said “metrics that helped him at 2b would kill him at SS.” False Edited February 7 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 10:20 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I didn’t say he is but you said “metrics that helped him at 2b would kill him at SS.” False Expand That's a fancy way of saying he can't play SS anymore. If he could still play SS, he would be. I would think that was obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 9:00 PM, nrockway said: You're probably right but I'm sure there's precedent in guys stinking it up at AAA and then doing fine in MLB the next year. I think this was discussed on this board before...definitely was because Jackson Merrill is the comp in a lot of ways...only Jackson stunk it up in AA and A+. Also think there's value in him being around the new manager and just, in general, being in Chicago. Again, you can always send him down. I might have a different opinion after Spring Training. I guess that's the true test. But he'll have to be pretty bad. He makes the team on vibes alone and I'm sticking to that. Expand Merrill can play (and now has played) both SS and CF at Gold Glove level. He had a high 700's ops in AA when he was just a teenager...or 20, likely the youngest player in the league. His performances and Montgomery's low 700's in AAA last have very little to nothing in common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 On 2/7/2025 at 10:24 PM, southsider2k5 said: That's a fancy way of saying he can't play SS anymore. If he could still play SS, he would be. I would think that was obvious. Expand Out of curiosity, what metrics were you referring to that helped him at 2B? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) You cannot win 45 guys with any of the shortstops you guys have listed. Who the heck is Colson? Oh wait; I didn't know Montgomery was ready. My guess is you can win some games with him if he's in the same (general) class as Bobby Witt. Edited February 8 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 12:28 AM, greg775 said: You cannot win 45 guys with any of the shortstops you guys have listed. Who the heck is Colson? Oh wait; I didn't know Montgomery was ready. My guess is you can win some games with him if he's in the same (general) class as Bobby Witt. Expand He’s not, so don’t get your hopes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/7/2025 at 8:46 PM, nrockway said: just my opinions. I think it's demoralizing to everyone, team and fanbase, if he doesn't get the job. I feel like he earned it simply by playing his way into his prospect status and already having done a year at Charlotte. You shouldn't make him start the year in Charlotte (though the weather is probably better). The team is bad anyway, he can learn against MLB pitching with the revamped MLB coaching staff. to your second point, I'm exaggerating, just talking about all the pitcher signings. yeah that's largely my point but I don't know why that's the classic Rick Hahn thing. you can't say Colson is being rushed. He's been around a long time. I don't know that he clearly needs more time in the minors, I know he has to improve, but why will he improve in Charlotte but not Chicago? you can always send him down. are we trying to win games? don't you want to go to opening day and see Colson and not, I dunno, some guy? if so, why isn't that guy ha-seong kim? edit: actually I feel like the classic Rick Hahn move would be to ignore the human element entirely. that guy's a robot. Expand What is more demoralizing, starting him at Charlotte to allow him the opportunity to rebound, or handing him the Opening Day SS job unearned and he flops, ending up in Charlotte anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 12:31 AM, WhiteSox2023 said: He’s not, so don’t get your hopes up. Expand Too late, house bet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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