WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:38 AM, Balta1701 said: I’ll happily give him a mid-level grade this year. The trades for 32 year old relievers are bizarre and make no sense on paper, but he knows no one will fire anyone if those deals flop and no one will blame his pitching coaches. On paper the Crochet deal was a good one and that’s the important one. With payroll constraints, since Nov. 1 2024 he’s been all right, but we will see how the deals go. August 2023 through October 2024 he was an epic, unimaginable nightmare. 121 big league losses and basically every trade was a loss on paper at the time and looked worse later. Expand You're blaming the pitching coaches right now, so I guess you consider yourself a big nobody. The Eloy, Banks, Grossman and DeJong trades were fine. The Bummer trade was okay. The Fedde trade was about a prospect short. Jury's still out on Vargas. The Cease deal was fine. Nothing to have a parade over, but it's on the Sox to develop those guys. The Booser and Gilbert trades are interesting. Trading from a glut of pitching to back up the bullpen. If you're considering deals like Matt Thompson for Bailey Horn to be an unimaginable nightmare, I can't imagine how easy and carefree your life must be for you to engage in such silly hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:41 AM, Balta1701 said: What will you do if Montgomery fails if I agree to that? Expand I'll be a little let down. It has to be an actual failure. Not having a slightly uncomfortable strikeout rate in his first year in the bigs, but he hits .052 in 500 PAs, and gets moved off of SS within days, he's so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:41 AM, WhiteSox2023 said: I see C’s. Mediocre, just like Getz. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-offseason-grades-so-far-mets-dodgers-red-sox-get-a-braves-cardinals-more-fail-for-inaction/ https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10152078-report-card-grades-for-all-30-mlb-teams-offseason.amp.html Expand Bleacher Report dings them because the Crochet trade didn't bring back major leaguers. Disqualified. The CBS list docks them for not pursuing a disastrous trade of Luis Robert in a clearly dubious market. That's silly. So you posted links to 2 C grades that explain why they were being unreasonably harsh, and their reasons are nonsensical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:44 AM, WestEddy said: You're blaming the pitching coaches right now, so I guess you consider yourself a big nobody. The Eloy, Banks, Grossman and DeJong trades were fine. The Bummer trade was okay. The Fedde trade was about a prospect short. Jury's still out on Vargas. The Cease deal was fine. Nothing to have a parade over, but it's on the Sox to develop those guys. The Booser and Gilbert trades are interesting. Trading from a glut of pitching to back up the bullpen. If you're considering deals like Matt Thompson for Bailey Horn to be an unimaginable nightmare, I can't imagine how easy and carefree your life must be for you to engage in such silly hyperbole. Expand The Bummer trade had a fundamentally rotten philosophy, trying to bring in expensive, underperforming veterans, the Braves GM literally told Getz not to do it. The Cease deal was weak at the time and looks like garbage now. Thorpe was exposed at the big league level, Iriarte has control issues, Zavala seriously regressed, and we are in the thread on Wilson being put on waivers. The Fedde deal was weak at the time and Vargas looked worse by the day. No one even seems to have a position for him. I will count the Booser and Gilbert trades as controversial, I wouldn’t do them because I would rather have the 18 year olds. But I also know that if those guys fail, you’ll tell us next offseason how they were smart moves with the white Sox’s pitching gurus, because nothing can ever disprove that, including one of the worse bullpens we ever saw last year. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:47 AM, WestEddy said: I'll be a little let down. It has to be an actual failure. Not having a slightly uncomfortable strikeout rate in his first year in the bigs, but he hits .052 in 500 PAs, and gets moved off of SS within days, he's so bad. Expand Martin Maldonado hit .119. Pretty low bar you set there, 57% worse than Martin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:47 AM, WestEddy said: I'll be a little let down. It has to be an actual failure. Not having a slightly uncomfortable strikeout rate in his first year in the bigs, but he hits .052 in 500 PAs, and gets moved off of SS within days, he's so bad. Expand So I have to quit my job and parade through the streets and you get to keep collecting your pay for positive posts about Getz? How is that a fair trade. Put your money where your mouth is, you should have offered to quit your job if he fails. You said I have to quit my job if he’s a success, you are a little let down if he’s a failure. Bold stance. Not remotely balanced. Exactly what someone would do if they don’t believe in the s%*# they’re shoveling. At least it’s blatant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:52 AM, Balta1701 said: The Bummer trade had a fundamentally rotten philosophy, trying to bring in expensive, underperforming veterans, the Braves GM literally told Getz not to do it. The Cease deal was weak at the time and looks like garbage now. Thorpe was exposed at the big league level, Iriarte has control issues, Zavala seriously regressed, and we are in the thread on Wilson being put on waivers. The Fedde deal was weak at the time and Vargas looked worse by the day. No one even seems to have a position for him. I will count the Booser and Gilbert trades as controversial, I wouldn’t do them because I would rather have the 18 year olds. But I also know that if those guys fail, you’ll tell us next offseason how they were smart moves with the white Sox’s pitching gurus, because nothing can ever disprove that, including one of the worse bullpens we ever saw last year. Expand Soroka was very cheap. So was Shuster. They both turned out to be fine bullpen arms. Shewmake made the minimum. Gowens was in A-ball. Lopez made about the same as Adam Frazier and outperformed him. $4M is about the going rate for that. The Cease deal looks like garbage to somebody wearing garbage-colored glasses. Thorpe made all the Southern League hitters his bitches. He had, like, 2 bad outings out of 9 in the bigs. I guess it's fun to pretend that a pitcher who did really well did really bad. Stokes the narrative. Half the pitchers in baseball have control issues. And Getz just "traded" Wilson for Eisert. I've admitted that the Fedde trade was a player light, and that Getz was hoodwinked. Looks like Vargas was compromised. Nobody was trading top 100 prospects at that deadline. Getz tried too hard to make it happen. If you would rather have 18-year-olds than competent bullpen arms, then you don't get to wail on about 121 losses. You get to blow kisses at the sky and thank God for giving you what you wanted all along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:55 AM, Balta1701 said: So I have to quit my job and parade through the streets and you get to keep collecting your pay for positive posts about Getz? How is that a fair trade. Put your money where your mouth is, you should have offered to quit your job if he fails. You said I have to quit my job if he’s a success, you are a little let down if he’s a failure. Bold stance. Not remotely balanced. Exactly what someone would do if they don’t believe in the s%*# they’re shoveling. At least it’s blatant. Expand I'm retired, so you've already gotten your side of the bargain. How about if I give up Mayonnaise every other Tuesday? You want people fired if something out of their control goes wrong. Why is that fair? I don't want anybody fired unfairly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:53 AM, caulfield12 said: Martin Maldonado hit .119. Pretty low bar you set there, 57% worse than Martin... Expand We didn't develop Maldonado. He was an obvious sop to a Manager Getz wanted to fire, anyway. My point is I'm talking to people who are pretending that a pitcher who had a historically great year at AA failed like nobody has ever failed before. So, of course, if Colson Montgomery comes up, hits .250/.310/.430 in his first stint, the mopes will scream that he's an abject failure, and everybody who has jobs, ever, should be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) On 2/10/2025 at 6:07 AM, WestEddy said: Soroka was very cheap. So was Shuster. They both turned out to be fine bullpen arms. Shewmake made the minimum. Gowens was in A-ball. Lopez made about the same as Adam Frazier and outperformed him. $4M is about the going rate for that. The Cease deal looks like garbage to somebody wearing garbage-colored glasses. Thorpe made all the Southern League hitters his bitches. He had, like, 2 bad outings out of 9 in the bigs. I guess it's fun to pretend that a pitcher who did really well did really bad. Stokes the narrative. Half the pitchers in baseball have control issues. And Getz just "traded" Wilson for Eisert. I've admitted that the Fedde trade was a player light, and that Getz was hoodwinked. Looks like Vargas was compromised. Nobody was trading top 100 prospects at that deadline. Getz tried too hard to make it happen. If you would rather have 18-year-olds than competent bullpen arms, then you don't get to wail on about 121 losses. You get to blow kisses at the sky and thank God for giving you what you wanted all along. Expand Lopez just signed a non-guaranteed MILB deal with the Cubs worth $1.5 million if he makes the team. $4.3 million is not the going rate for a garbage 2B. His arbitration number was too high last year, which is why the Braves were going to non-tender him, before Getz was stupid enough to swoop in and acquire him. Getz was also stupid to think Lopez would be a viable starting 2B. Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 6:14 AM, WhiteSox2023 said: Lopez just signed a non-guaranteed MILB deal with the Cubs worth $1.5 million if he makes the team. $4.3 million is not the going rate for a garbage 2B. His arbitration number was too high last year, which is why the Braves were going to non-tender him, before Getz was stupid enough to swoop in and acquire him. Getz was also stupid to think Lopez would be a viable starting 2B. Expand At least 2 teams paid veteran infielders $4M+ for replacement level production, the Royals and White Sox. I'm sorry that makes you sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, WestEddy said: We didn't develop Maldonado. He was an obvious sop to a Manager Getz wanted to fire, anyway. My point is I'm talking to people who are pretending that a pitcher who had a historically great year at AA failed like nobody has ever failed before. So, of course, if Colson Montgomery comes up, hits .250/.310/.430 in his first stint, the mopes will scream that he's an abject failure, and everybody who has jobs, ever, should be fired. Expand 740 is fine for an above average SS...certainly a rookie. Holliday didn't come anywhere near that level. Probably not acceptable for an average to below average fielding 3B...which is probably what he would be without any preparation besides the AFL for a position change. At third, you'd be looking for a 775-825 ops at least, with 850+ ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) On 2/10/2025 at 6:54 AM, WestEddy said: At least 2 teams paid veteran infielders $4M+ for replacement level production, the Royals and White Sox. I'm sorry that makes you sad. Expand Two teams made stupid acquisitions with one of those teams being the Sox, notorious for bad player acquisitions. This doesn’t prove your point. Frazier just signed with the Pirates for $1.525 million. But imagine trying to defend the Nicky Lopez acquisition this badly even after we all know it was a failure. Edited February 10 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Holy hell baseball season needs to start. A thread about Brandon Eisert has nine pages. 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 12:47 PM, hogan873 said: Holy hell baseball season needs to start. A thread about Brandon Eisert has nine pages. Expand Honestly it’s kind of entertaining, like a Russian Roulette of Getz debates. Which transaction will trigger the next @WestEddy thread? Where will THIS thread go, with the same basic plot? It’s almost more entertaining than tracking the actual moves, jut to see the finger pointing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 2:04 PM, JoeC said: Honestly it’s kind of entertaining, like a Russian Roulette of Getz debates. Which transaction will trigger the next @WestEddy thread? Where will THIS thread go, with the same basic plot? It’s almost more entertaining than tracking the actual moves, jut to see the finger pointing. Expand The problem is it’s all the same argument over and over again. Every single transaction (outside of possibly Crochet) we have the same handful of posters debating the same topics. And I have partaken in some of these threads, so I am not free of blame either. But at some point you have accepted defeat in being able to convince your counterpart to take your position. IMO, it’s very fair to say the following: Getz has been generally been bad at trades so far The Cease trade doesn’t look promising right now The Vargas trade was questionable from the get go Pro Scouting still remains a major area of concern It’s too early to draw conclusions on Getz as a trader To me, there is nothing controversial in the above, but I guarantee we couldn’t get the board to align on those five points. Certain sides have locked in on their view of either Getz being a total failure at trades or him being completely free from blame, where the reality is somewhere it the middle right now. 2 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 2:17 PM, Chicago White Sox said: The problem is it’s all the same argument over and over again. Every single transaction (outside of possibly Crochet) we have the same handful of posters debating the same topics. And I have partaken in some of these threads, so I am not free of blame either. But at some point you have accepted defeat in being able to convince your counterpart to take your position. IMO, it’s very fair to say the following: Getz has been generally been bad at trades so far The Cease trade doesn’t look promising right now The Vargas trade was questionable from the get go Pro Scouting still remains a major area of concern It’s too early to draw conclusions on Getz as a trader To me, there is nothing controversial in the above, but I guarantee we couldn’t get the board to align on those five points. Certain sides have locked in on their view of either Getz being a total failure at trades or him being completely free from blame, where the reality is somewhere it the middle right now. Expand The "2 sides" kind of force each other into their own particular corners. You can even feel the narrative shift from reasonable to "everybody must be fired"/"no, you should be thanking him for his genius". I'll agree that most of the trades have been underwhelming. But I feel it's like a guy trying to run an auto repair shop after he's been burglarized of all his tools. I just want to watch the rest of the movie to see how it turns out without the guy behind me screaming that I should be joining him in yelling for the theater manager to be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 (edited) On 2/10/2025 at 2:17 PM, Chicago White Sox said: The problem is it’s all the same argument over and over again. Every single transaction (outside of possibly Crochet) we have the same handful of posters debating the same topics. And I have partaken in some of these threads, so I am not free of blame either. But at some point you have accepted defeat in being able to convince your counterpart to take your position. IMO, it’s very fair to say the following: Getz has been generally been bad at trades so far The Cease trade doesn’t look promising right now The Vargas trade was questionable from the get go Pro Scouting still remains a major area of concern It’s too early to draw conclusions on Getz as a trader To me, there is nothing controversial in the above, but I guarantee we couldn’t get the board to align on those five points. Certain sides have locked in on their view of either Getz being a total failure at trades or him being completely free from blame, where the reality is somewhere it the middle right now. Expand My 2 cents: he's a bad GM who is unqualified for the position who wouldn't be placed in this situation to fail if not for the owner. Don't really care to argue since it is what it is at this point until something changes at the very top. Edited February 10 by Bob Sacamano 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:52 AM, Balta1701 said: The Bummer trade had a fundamentally rotten philosophy, trying to bring in expensive, underperforming veterans, the Braves GM literally told Getz not to do it. The Cease deal was weak at the time and looks like garbage now. Thorpe was exposed at the big league level, Iriarte has control issues, Zavala seriously regressed, and we are in the thread on Wilson being put on waivers. The Fedde deal was weak at the time and Vargas looked worse by the day. No one even seems to have a position for him. I will count the Booser and Gilbert trades as controversial, I wouldn’t do them because I would rather have the 18 year olds. But I also know that if those guys fail, you’ll tell us next offseason how they were smart moves with the white Sox’s pitching gurus, because nothing can ever disprove that, including one of the worse bullpens we ever saw last year. Expand I can't help but note that for a system that has such faith in its player development and specifically pitching development, they sure are trading off a lot of young pitchers to get middle aged and very limited ceiling middle aged pitchers to replace them. If this is supposed to be the lodestar of Sox player development, why are we sending future out for guys we should be able to easily replicate in our system? I mean even if we were getting hitters for them, it might be something, but old middle relievers? Make it make sense for me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 3:05 PM, southsider2k5 said: I can't help but note that for a system that has such faith in its player development and specifically pitching development, they sure are trading off a lot of young pitchers to get middle aged and very limited ceiling middle aged pitchers to replace them. If this is supposed to be the lodestar of Sox player development, why are we sending future out for guys we should be able to easily replicate in our system? I mean even if we were getting hitters for them, it might be something, but old middle relievers? Make it make sense for me. Expand Last year's bullpen was a disaster. I thought it was an interesting path to sign a bunch of rehabbing closers and set-up guys, but pretty much all of them were released or traded for cash. I'd say timing didn't work out, you'd say Getz panicked. This year, he's steering clear of that approach, and he's stocking up on guys who will be ready day one. It makes sense to me that he's not going to get trapped into using journeymen AAA starters as bullpen pieces again. They do have a glut of pitching. There's not even enough rotation spots in 4 levels of minor leagues to accommodate the number of prospects they have. While Combs and Fajardo seem to have more talent than the upper level guys they shipped out last year (Mena, Thompson), it's still dealing from wealth, rather than "shipping out young prospects". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 3:22 PM, WestEddy said: Last year's bullpen was a disaster. I thought it was an interesting path to sign a bunch of rehabbing closers and set-up guys, but pretty much all of them were released or traded for cash. I'd say timing didn't work out, you'd say Getz panicked. This year, he's steering clear of that approach, and he's stocking up on guys who will be ready day one. It makes sense to me that he's not going to get trapped into using journeymen AAA starters as bullpen pieces again. They do have a glut of pitching. There's not even enough rotation spots in 4 levels of minor leagues to accommodate the number of prospects they have. While Combs and Fajardo seem to have more talent than the upper level guys they shipped out last year (Mena, Thompson), it's still dealing from wealth, rather than "shipping out young prospects". Expand So we have too much pitching, and not enough pitching, all at the same time. Folks we have Schroedingers bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 3:24 PM, southsider2k5 said: So we have too much pitching, and not enough pitching, all at the same time. Folks we have Schroedingers bullpen. Expand Are you going to pretend to not understand the difference between starting pitchers in low-A ball and a major league bullpen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 3:32 PM, WestEddy said: Are you going to pretend to not understand the difference between starting pitchers in low-A ball and a major league bullpen? Expand I do pretend to understand that if we wanted cheap mediocre relievers we could just as easily spend non-prospect resources on them in the free agent market instead of giving up on what we supposedly do so well instead. Are you going to pretend that our trades aren't flat out contradicting what our chorus line of press is saying about how great we do at this very activity? Why is the only way we can find any relievers by trading for them with the very pitching prospects we are supposed to be so good at developing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 5:44 AM, WestEddy said: The Fedde trade was about a prospect short. Jury's still out on Vargas. . Expand It was a top 100 prospect short. The two low-minors guys were essentially the return for Kopech. I've said it before, but it seems to me that Getz makes these trades on the other teams' terms and he trusts these GMs for some reason. If your own pro scouting department is competent and properly deployed, you should never be in the position to have to trust these GMs. It's particularly annoying in the Fedde trade given that there was really no urgent need to trade him in first place. And yet, Getz basically did what Mozeliak and Gomes/Friedman wanted him to do. Even the Crochet trade was on the Red Sox terms, as they held back their top 3 guys; that should work out for the Sox in this one case because their next prospects were players about which the Sox had independent knowledge. But overall, he's trying to build this org from absolute ground zero. He just can't afford big gaffes like this, especially as they haven't been much better than C-level performers in the other modes of talent acquisition: the Draft and International signings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2025 at 3:39 PM, southsider2k5 said: I do pretend to understand that if we wanted cheap mediocre relievers we could just as easily spend non-prospect resources on them in the free agent market instead of giving up on what we supposedly do so well instead. Are you going to pretend that our trades aren't flat out contradicting what our chorus line of press is saying about how great we do at this very activity? Why is the only way we can find any relievers by trading for them with the very pitching prospects we are supposed to be so good at developing? Expand The White Sox have too many pitching prospects. LMAO. Must deal them for journeymen you can hopefully flip for next to nothing if everything works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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