Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 12:53 AM, chitownsportsfan said: Because a certain subset of fans Want to Believe. And Want Others to Believe. Imma wait and see. Expand For the record, I couldn’t care less who believes and who doesn’t. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/17/2025 at 11:52 PM, southsider2k5 said: Look man, you can mock everyone who has seen the last 45 years of ownership, complete with every lie to the fans, every broke promise to the base, every company line planted to the eager faithful parrots, and every single vow to be different, and eat it up. That's fine. You absolutely should not be surprised by those who have seen this exact same behavior in the past and who have learned a healthy skepticism from it. Some of us will wait for results before declaring everything fixed. Expand Who has declared everything fixed through? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 (edited) On 2/18/2025 at 12:50 AM, Snopek said: Three things are true: 1) They are introducing new ideas to an organization that has notoriously been stubborn and behind the times. This is objectively a good thing. 2) Unless it yields tangible positive results, it’s just another organizational failure. 3) Time needs to pass before any of us know how this all shakes out. That’s all there is to it. Why is this even an argument? Expand I said "journalists" when I should have specifically said "bloggers" and "podcasters". But as Jimmy has shown, journalists have reported on changes the org is making. It's insulting to be asked for other articles verifying the information being reported on in the first article I posted. Edited February 18 by WestEddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 12:49 AM, Y2Jimmy0 said: Mike Shirley is actually good at his job though. Lots of others were replaced. He did draft Chris Getz though haha Being skeptical of ownership is totally warranted. Jerry is awful. It’s a very different organization right now though below ownership. I mean Rosenthal and Passan wrote entire articles on the organizational change. Merkin, DVS and others reported heavily on the research and development, international and hitting infrastructure hires. This info has been out there for anyone who was interested in being open minded. We don’t know if it’ll work because they ultimately need to develop players. However, they’ve put themselves in a much better position and situation to actually be able to develop players. Expand Would you be willing to link to some of these articles or let me know where I can find them? I'd like to read up on them. I enjoyed listening to Keith Law talk about the state of the Sox on Sox Machine's latest podcast. It's good to hear outsiders' thoughts on the team, and it was refreshing to hear him say positive things about what the Sox are doing and who they are bringing in. He even went as far to say (paraphrasing) that he doesn't believe Jerry is micro-managing the team into oblivion like Arte Moreno is with the Angels. He seems to think there is legitimate hope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:34 AM, Ducksnort said: He even went as far to say (paraphrasing) that he doesn't believe Jerry is micro-managing the team into oblivion like Arte Moreno is with the Angels. He seems to think there is legitimate hope. Expand At the same time, he's also far more negative about the White Sox's system than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksnort Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:36 AM, Balta1701 said: At the same time, he's also far more negative about the White Sox's system than most. Expand Which is why my ears perked even more when I heard him talking positively about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:34 AM, Ducksnort said: Would you be willing to link to some of these articles or let me know where I can find them? I'd like to read up on them. I enjoyed listening to Keith Law talk about the state of the Sox on Sox Machine's latest podcast. It's good to hear outsiders' thoughts on the team, and it was refreshing to hear him say positive things about what the Sox are doing and who they are bringing in. He even went as far to say (paraphrasing) that he doesn't believe Jerry is micro-managing the team into oblivion like Arte Moreno is with the Angels. He seems to think there is legitimate hope. Expand This is a Rosenthal article that excoriates JR for his micro-managing, and talks about what Getz had modernized up til September of 24. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5773947/2024/09/19/white-sox-failure-worst-season-history/ This article on SportsMockery also gathers some of the reporting from September/24 White Sox Launch Front Office Overhaul As Getz Looks to Correct Years of Missteps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 It’s stupid at this point to be having a debate if we should take Fegan at his word, that really shouldn’t be a question at this point. He wrote a story with direct access to the team and provided fans with an update at what the FO is doing. There is a difference between believing what Fegan wrote and believing it’s going to work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 2:08 AM, Tony said: It’s stupid at this point to be having a debate if we should take Fegan at his word, that really shouldn’t be a question at this point. He wrote a story with direct access to the team and provided fans with an update at what the FO is doing. There is a difference between believing what Fegan wrote and believing it’s going to work. Expand We literally just had a series of articles about how Hahn wanted to operate with more of an analytical mindset during the last rebuild, so they contracted with an outside company for their data processing methods and system, had no specific plans for how to use the data they bought and no buy in from the rest of the staff, wound up with an analytics department that no one listened to, and then backslid with a manager who thought analytics were ruining the game. This s%*# was going down in 2018, 2019, 2021, and as much respect for his baseball reporting as I have, James Fegan wasn’t reporting on the madhouse and the so called insiders were praising Hahn’s new approach’s Nothing about the behind the scenes turmoil. Nothing about how useless their analytics efforts became. Nothing about the insane level of personality conflicts even when we could watch the results on the field and players called the team out when they left: We had to wait until the 2024 implosion to hear those stories from the national press. More than 5 wasted years later. This is access journalism, it’s calling it the Gulf of America to keep access because leadership will get mad if you don’t always say they’re doing great. So why on Earth should I believe the same people telling me the exact same thing until there are undeniable results on the field supporting those statements? They’ve already established that they won’t report bad enough news in order to keep the boss happy. There are a hundred different ways that a fancy new tool could become behind the times or a waste of money or not used effectively and we know that won’t be reported because it wasn’t last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 12:56 AM, Y2Jimmy0 said: For the record, I couldn’t care less who believes and who doesn’t. Expand trust me, we all know, for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 3:36 AM, Balta1701 said: We literally just had a series of articles about how Hahn wanted to operate with more of an analytical mindset during the last rebuild, so they contracted with an outside company for their data processing methods and system, had no specific plans for how to use the data they bought and no buy in from the rest of the staff, wound up with an analytics department that no one listened to, and then backslid with a manager who thought analytics were ruining the game. This s%*# was going down in 2018, 2019, 2021, and as much respect for his baseball reporting as I have, James Fegan wasn’t reporting on the madhouse and the so called insiders were praising Hahn’s new approach’s Nothing about the behind the scenes turmoil. Nothing about how useless their analytics efforts became. Nothing about the insane level of personality conflicts even when we could watch the results on the field and players called the team out when they left: We had to wait until the 2024 implosion to hear those stories from the national press. More than 5 wasted years later. This is access journalism, it’s calling it the Gulf of America to keep access because leadership will get mad if you don’t always say they’re doing great. So why on Earth should I believe the same people telling me the exact same thing until there are undeniable results on the field supporting those statements? They’ve already established that they won’t report bad enough news in order to keep the boss happy. There are a hundred different ways that a fancy new tool could become behind the times or a waste of money or not used effectively and we know that won’t be reported because it wasn’t last time. Expand Good thing you thought of all of that now so you don't waste 5 good years that could be used to worry about this stuff. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 2:08 AM, Tony said: It’s stupid at this point to be having a debate if we should take Fegan at his word, that really shouldn’t be a question at this point. He wrote a story with direct access to the team and provided fans with an update at what the FO is doing. There is a difference between believing what Fegan wrote and believing it’s going to work. Expand The debate was never actually about the validity of Fegan's work, but it was misconstrued as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 3:36 AM, Balta1701 said: We literally just had a series of articles about how Hahn wanted to operate with more of an analytical mindset during the last rebuild, so they contracted with an outside company for their data processing methods and system, had no specific plans for how to use the data they bought and no buy in from the rest of the staff, wound up with an analytics department that no one listened to, and then backslid with a manager who thought analytics were ruining the game. This s%*# was going down in 2018, 2019, 2021, and as much respect for his baseball reporting as I have, James Fegan wasn’t reporting on the madhouse and the so called insiders were praising Hahn’s new approach’s Nothing about the behind the scenes turmoil. Nothing about how useless their analytics efforts became. Nothing about the insane level of personality conflicts even when we could watch the results on the field and players called the team out when they left: We had to wait until the 2024 implosion to hear those stories from the national press. More than 5 wasted years later. This is access journalism, it’s calling it the Gulf of America to keep access because leadership will get mad if you don’t always say they’re doing great. So why on Earth should I believe the same people telling me the exact same thing until there are undeniable results on the field supporting those statements? They’ve already established that they won’t report bad enough news in order to keep the boss happy. There are a hundred different ways that a fancy new tool could become behind the times or a waste of money or not used effectively and we know that won’t be reported because it wasn’t last time. Expand Isn't Jeremy Haber's "grand failure" the main culprit here, arguably...it feels like still, after all this time, that Rick Hahn has been somehow shielded from taking on as much blame as he should have. Of course, the plethora of conspiracy theories: "KW never gave him a chance to really run things on his own," or "JR screwed him over on AJ Hinch and some of his prime targeted FA guys like Machado..." Maybe Dan Fabian, ND alum who was around there forever and then supervising analytics has to bear part of the blame? Pretty much everyone but Hostetler's been gutted and hung out to dry from that era of execs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 4:27 AM, WestEddy said: Good thing you thought of all of that now so you don't waste 5 good years that could be used to worry about this stuff. LOL. Expand And you’re told there are no Americans at the airport, so you believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 3:36 AM, Balta1701 said: We literally just had a series of articles about how Hahn wanted to operate with more of an analytical mindset during the last rebuild, so they contracted with an outside company for their data processing methods and system, had no specific plans for how to use the data they bought and no buy in from the rest of the staff, wound up with an analytics department that no one listened to, and then backslid with a manager who thought analytics were ruining the game. This s%*# was going down in 2018, 2019, 2021, and as much respect for his baseball reporting as I have, James Fegan wasn’t reporting on the madhouse and the so called insiders were praising Hahn’s new approach’s Nothing about the behind the scenes turmoil. Nothing about how useless their analytics efforts became. Nothing about the insane level of personality conflicts even when we could watch the results on the field and players called the team out when they left: We had to wait until the 2024 implosion to hear those stories from the national press. More than 5 wasted years later. This is access journalism, it’s calling it the Gulf of America to keep access because leadership will get mad if you don’t always say they’re doing great. So why on Earth should I believe the same people telling me the exact same thing until there are undeniable results on the field supporting those statements? They’ve already established that they won’t report bad enough news in order to keep the boss happy. There are a hundred different ways that a fancy new tool could become behind the times or a waste of money or not used effectively and we know that won’t be reported because it wasn’t last time. Expand Yeah, you’re not going to read the article and there will be no convincing you how blatantly different the actions Getz are implementing are from anything Hahn ever did. The articles about the org under Hahn ripped the Sox for being so behind the time when it came to data and technology. We were in the god damn Stone Age compared to the rest of baseball. And what’s funny is that we all could it see it came to roster design, pre-game planning & preparation, and minor league development. I have no clue what you think people were praising about Hahn. It was widely known we had the smallest analytics group and had to outsource many core capabilities. It’s widely known that we weren’t leveraging key technologies that greatly aid the scouting and player development processes. You can continue to shout and scream “this is all the same” but that doesn’t make it true. The reality is the Sox did very little modernize under Hahn and that’s exactly we have reached rock bottom as an organization. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 4:36 AM, Tnetennba said: The debate was never actually about the validity of Fegan's work, but it was misconstrued as such. Expand Dude you said "actual journalists" haven't said anything about it. How else was that supposed to be taken? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 12:28 PM, Chicago White Sox said: Yeah, you’re not going to read the article and there will be no convincing you how blatantly different the actions Getz are implementing are from anything Hahn ever did. The articles about the org under Hahn ripped the Sox for being so behind the time when it came to data and technology. We were in the god damn Stone Age compared to the rest of baseball. And what’s funny is that we all could it see it came to roster design, pre-game planning & preparation, and minor league development. I have no clue what you think people were praising about Hahn. It was widely known we had the smallest analytics group and had to outsource many core capabilities. It’s widely known that we weren’t leveraging key technologies that greatly aid the scouting and player development processes. You can continue to shout and scream “this is all the same” but that doesn’t make it true. The reality is the Sox did very little modernize under Hahn and that’s exactly we have reached rock bottom as an organization. Expand And the same reality is that the people who are now telling how they modernized this stuff were the people telling us how Hahn modernized their drafting and analytics process years ago. They didn't cover how badly they messed it up at all, even as we could watch things going wrong, the people who told us that the White Sox were messing things up were outside of the organization. And now the same people who told us how Hahn had improved things and a select group of fanboys are getting totally incensed that we don't see the greatness in the work they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) On 2/18/2025 at 1:07 AM, WestEddy said: I said "journalists" when I should have specifically said "bloggers" and "podcasters". But as Jimmy has shown, journalists have reported on changes the org is making. It's insulting to be asked for other articles verifying the information being reported on in the first article I posted. Expand It’s funny that you had no problem questioning The Athletic’s Dan Hayes regarding his story about trade talks between the Twins and White Sox and Luke Keaschall. Do you pick and choose which journalists you believe and which ones you don’t based on if you like their stories or not? Edited February 18 by WhiteSox2023 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) On 2/18/2025 at 1:28 PM, Balta1701 said: And the same reality is that the people who are now telling how they modernized this stuff were the people telling us how Hahn modernized their drafting and analytics process years ago. They didn't cover how badly they messed it up at all, even as we could watch things going wrong, the people who told us that the White Sox were messing things up were outside of the organization. And now the same people who told us how Hahn had improved things and a select group of fanboys are getting totally incensed that we don't see the greatness in the work they are doing. Expand Who? Stop speaking in generalizations and show the receipts. Regardless, I’m not sure your obsession with what “insiders” previously told us matters here. Fegan is reporting on specific tangible investments being made right now. This never happened under Hahn and we all could see it. No one is saying everything is fixed right now. We need to see if these investments and other actions (like hiring outside the org) pay off. That will take time. For now, it’s better to see us doing things differently and trying to address the massive cracks in our foundation than do the same old bullshit. No one is suggesting we should start doing cartwheels around the Rate to celebrate our upcoming dynasty, but there is some reason for optimism that maybe the Dark Ages will be behind us soon enough. And until Jerry passes, that is the best we Sox fans can hope for. Edited February 18 by Chicago White Sox 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 it all happens on soxtalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:51 PM, Kyyle23 said: it all happens on soxtalk Expand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:32 PM, WhiteSox2023 said: It’s funny that you had no problem questioning The Athletic’s Dan Hayes regarding his story about trade talks between the Twins and White Sox and Luke Keaschall. Do you pick and choose which journalists you believe and which ones you don’t based on if you like their stories or not? Expand WTF is wrong with you? You're comparing an incomplete trade rumor leak to a thorough article documenting changes juxtaposed with a very transparent acknowledgement of serious problems and shortcomings in the organization. You've even admitted that Hayes didn't have all the information when he "went to press" by clicking send on Twitter. All I've ever said about the Hayes half rumor is that you don't know the whole story to be beating everybody over the head with it multiple times a day in multiple strings. You made a meme out of WE COULDA HAD KEASCHULL!!!! You did that all by yourself. If you don't understand the difference, haranguing me isn't going to do anything for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 3:36 AM, Balta1701 said: We literally just had a series of articles about how Hahn wanted to operate with more of an analytical mindset during the last rebuild, so they contracted with an outside company for their data processing methods and system, had no specific plans for how to use the data they bought and no buy in from the rest of the staff, wound up with an analytics department that no one listened to, and then backslid with a manager who thought analytics were ruining the game. This s%*# was going down in 2018, 2019, 2021, and as much respect for his baseball reporting as I have, James Fegan wasn’t reporting on the madhouse and the so called insiders were praising Hahn’s new approach’s Nothing about the behind the scenes turmoil. Nothing about how useless their analytics efforts became. Nothing about the insane level of personality conflicts even when we could watch the results on the field and players called the team out when they left: We had to wait until the 2024 implosion to hear those stories from the national press. More than 5 wasted years later. This is access journalism, it’s calling it the Gulf of America to keep access because leadership will get mad if you don’t always say they’re doing great. So why on Earth should I believe the same people telling me the exact same thing until there are undeniable results on the field supporting those statements? They’ve already established that they won’t report bad enough news in order to keep the boss happy. There are a hundred different ways that a fancy new tool could become behind the times or a waste of money or not used effectively and we know that won’t be reported because it wasn’t last time. Expand Not sure what is so hard to understand. The original reason this conversation even started was someone asking if other media members are reporting on this, which calls into question the accuracy of Fegan's report. As I said, in the post YOU quoted, we should believe what Fegan wrote as accurate information. They did make these investments, the things he reported on have happened. That is DIFFERENT than believing the investments that have been made will make an impact in wins and losses for the Sox. That is a totally different debate, and ones I have serious doubts about. But the information Fegan provided shouldn't be considered incorrect or not based on fact, simply because of his reputation at this point. He's a good reporter, I'm taking him at his word. We're not talking about his opinion. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 1:02 PM, PaleAleSox said: Dude you said "actual journalists" haven't said anything about it. How else was that supposed to be taken? Expand Thanks for continuing to misconstrue what I actually said. I in no way said that Fegan isn't a journalist. If you read it that way, that is 100% your bias getting in the way. I went searching for corroborating articles to Fegan's and only found blog posts, not accredited journalists writing for their respective outlets. I did not do an extensive search, and obviously I missed other articles written by DVS, Passan et al. I have done paid writing for a blog, and I sure as hell am no journalist. That is the distinction I used after my very cursory search. But if that is too difficult for you to understand, so be it. You failing to understand my post and blowing it out of proportion is not a me problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/18/2025 at 12:10 AM, chitownsportsfan said: Ayo, some required reading: @bmags and a couple others called all of it. Expand Jesus I don’t remember being that jaded in 2016 this was a rough rough decade 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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