Sox Spring Training notes

[nrockway]

  On 2/13/2025 at 10:47 AM, caulfield12 said:

Fegan interviews Venable, Gonzalez, Davis Martin

https://soxmachine.com/2025/02/white-sox-open-camp-emphasizing-environment-over-expectations/

"Gonzalez had three hits and three RBIs apiece in that game in Montgomery, using a new leg kick as a loading action to keep his weight back, after offseason work to maintain his direction at the plate forced him to rework his timing through a season where he slashed .238/.307/.343 across two levels. It was only a small handful of games that Gonzalez was able to try out the move with a swing that’s been remodeled in multiple ways at this point, but the initial results encouraged him to keep working on it through the winter."

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Great article. Fegan is an excellent writer. I canceled my nyt subscription when they canned him. He should pick a new game honestly. So much money in sports but not for the writers. 

Edited February 15 by nrockway

[nrockway]

 

Martin said. “You look at team control from a GM side of things, all these guys, we could be together for a while. I think we have a great camaraderie, we have a great competition within ourselves. The best thing is we want the best for each other. It’s not a toxic environment.”

 

pretty interesting quote too. I like this guy. I hope we don’t trade him. 

[nrockway]

  On 2/13/2025 at 7:07 PM, southsider2k5 said:

And yet he didn't trade Luis Robert at peak value in 2023.  He's either an idiot, or he's lying.  Pick one.

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That seems unfair. I don’t think it’s either. I think we are all confused about the status of Luis Robert. I want him to be a Sox for life. I assume management must feel a way about that. Was the going rate for Luis Robert much better in 2023 than it is now? Yes. But what was the value? Worth trading him? I’m not so sure. He’s excellent at his position and occasionally hits the ball.  

[caulfield12]

  On 2/15/2025 at 12:53 AM, nrockway said:

That seems unfair. I don’t think it’s either. I think we are all confused about the status of Luis Robert. I want him to be a Sox for life. I assume management must feel a way about that. Was the going rate for Luis Robert much better in 2023 than it is now? Yes. But what was the value? Worth trading him? I’m not so sure. He’s excellent at his position and occasionally hits the ball.  

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Except he wasn't even a great defender last year, either.  At least by some of the metrics.

[Balta1701]

  On 2/15/2025 at 12:53 AM, nrockway said:

 I want him to be a Sox for life. I assume management must feel a way about that. 

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Given his history I interpret this as expecting him to die this season.

[caulfield12]

“I’m expecting a lot from Davis,” said pitching coach Ethan Katz. “Especially now being removed from Tommy John...(now) having a normal offseason.”

Martin left his last start of 2022 with bicep soreness after an ERA-wrecking season finale outing, and was still very much in the throes of rehabbing from Tommy John surgery this time last season. So training without restrictions at the PitchingWRX facility in his native Oklahoma over the offseason was a lot more normal, and a lot more active...

 

Solid write up on Davis Martin's positives, lots of detail and quotes...rotating DH looks the most likely for now...Gallo brought in more for 1B/DH at-bats.

https://soxmachine.com/2025/02/davis-martin-readying-for-a-starring-role-in-white-sox-rotation/

Edited February 15 by caulfield12

[Ducksnort]

  On 2/15/2025 at 12:22 AM, nrockway said:

 

Martin said. “You look at team control from a GM side of things, all these guys, we could be together for a while. I think we have a great camaraderie, we have a great competition within ourselves. The best thing is we want the best for each other. It’s not a toxic environment.”

 

pretty interesting quote too. I like this guy. I hope we don’t trade him. 

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I hope a lot of these guys have unexpected breakouts this season.  I guess honestly that's all you really can hope for as a Sox fan. Even if the hope is unrealistic 😆😭

Edited February 15 by Ducksnort

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

  On 2/13/2025 at 8:39 PM, TaylorStSox said:

Back in 23, there was also a possibility that Robert was the one cost controlled cornerstone player you could build around.

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But after the '23 season after you lost 101 games and traded away everyone they could at the TDL. Anyone with half a brain knew it was the start of another rebuild regardless if they were choosing not to use that word because JR happened to pin Getz into a corner by talking about a quick turnaround. What the heck could Getz do except try not to make JR look like a liar .

If you only had 1 good player to build around that's not a good reason to keep him.

You'd think after Hahn and Williams were fired and JR hired Getz that some time in the next 4 months that JR would've gave Getz the lay of the financial land and he had to know that he'd have very little money to work with.

His one player still left on the team who could fetch some really good prospects was Robert . He had to be traded.

They weren't going to turn a 101 loss team who just traded away almost anyone with value and they were going to cut payroll and spend next to nothing.

He could've jumped started the rebuild with a strong return if he got a return equal to the Crochet trade.

Edited February 16 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[nrockway]

  On 2/15/2025 at 1:01 AM, caulfield12 said:

Except he wasn't even a great defender last year, either.  At least by some of the metrics.

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What metrics? I don’t understand metrics. He has, like, a honing beam for the ball. The ball comes off the bat and he’s already there. He’s stealing balls from the other guys, whatever, but what a brain for the position. 

[TaylorStSox]

  On 2/16/2025 at 5:34 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But after the '23 season after you lost 101 games and traded away everyone they could at the TDL. Anyone with half a brain knew it was the start of another rebuild regardless if they were choosing not to use that word because JR happened to pin Getz into a corner by talking about a quick turnaround. What the heck could Getz do except try not to make JR look like a liar .

If you only had 1 good player to build around that's not a good reason to keep him.

You'd think after Hahn and Williams were fired and JR hired Getz that some time in the next 4 months that JR would've gave Getz the lay of the financial land and he had to know that he'd have very little money to work with.

His one player still left on the team who could fetch some really good prospects was Robert . He had to be traded.

They weren't going to turn a 101 loss team who just traded away almost anyone with value and they were going to cut payroll and spend next to nothing.

He could've jumped started the rebuild with a strong return if he got a return equal to the Crochet trade.

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Generally I agree, but when you have a generational player, I don't mind building around him. Robert is probably the most physically gifted player to ever play for the White Sox. I would have traded him, but I also understand hanging on to him. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Very happy to see Vargas put in the work in the weight room this off season.  Now I want to see what adjustments he made to his swing.  Also expecting him to be in a much better head space this season.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

  On 2/13/2025 at 8:51 PM, Balta1701 said:

Just to say it - it's entirely possible that no team out there would come anywhere close to paying a fair price for a player with his injury history. 

While I don't think Getz has been good on his trades, without knowing what other teams might have offered, especially if they thought Getz would actually move him - its hard to evaluate whether there was a plausible return worth moving him for.

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While everyone knows that I generally defend Getz for the onslaught of over the top criticism , the whole reason we're talking about this is because I said not trading Robert was Getz' biggest mistake. 

One of Getz' harshest critics who calls him Captain Panic picked that up and ran with it because, oops , now he didn't panic and held onto him and in doing so was either stupid or a liar.

One thing is certain even without knowing the offers, the return would have been far better than what he's likely to get if he's traded before the season starts .

There was zero reasons to hold onto him. 101 loss season, everyone traded at the deadline, budget and payroll cut drastically. There were no high quality assets besides him at the time which was before Crochet's unexpected ascension. Soxtalk reader Liam Hendriks contract was over but was cancer free .

Eloy Jimenez just had his healthiest season by playing 120 games , most since his rookie year in 2019 but he was clearly not the same player. Nor was Yoan Moncada for that matter who had a 1.1 fWar in 2023. In hindsight both of them should be been moved also.

All 3 of them had extensive injury history and still had value but moving Robert should have been a priority given his injury history and big statistical year.

He would've saved Jerry $30M and got about $30M worth of prospects back .

They probably would've had to pay off a large portion of Moncada $25M remaining contract but they ended up paying off all of it.

Eloy's final salary in 2024 was around $13M . The Sox probably would've ended up paying off most of that too if they had traded him after the 2023 season but might have got a better younger prospect than Trey McGough. The Os only ended up responsible for $1.5 million of his $3M buyout and the Sox essentially paid off all of his remaining contract.

Edited February 16 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ptatc]

  On 2/15/2025 at 1:01 AM, caulfield12 said:

Except he wasn't even a great defender last year, either.  At least by some of the metrics.

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Injuries tend to do that.

[Y2Jimmy0]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:03 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

While everyone knows that I generally defend Getz for the onslaught of over the top criticism , the whole reason we're talking about this is because I said not trading Robert was Getz' biggest mistake. 

One of Getz' harshest critics who calls him Captain Panic picked that up and ran with it because, oops , now he didn't panic and held onto him and in doing so was either stupid or a liar.

One thing is certain even without knowing the offers, the return would have been far better than what he's likely to get if he's traded before the season starts .

There was zero reasons to hold onto him. 101 loss season, everyone traded at the deadline, budget and payroll cut drastically. There were no high quality assets besides him at the time which was before Crochet's unexpected ascension. Soxtalk reader Liam Hendriks contract was over but was cancer free .

Eloy Jimenez just had his healthiest season by playing 120 games , most since his rookie year in 2019 but he was clearly not the same player. Nor was Yoan Moncada for that matter who had a 1.1 fWar in 2023. In hindsight both of them should be been moved also.

All 3 of them had extensive injury history and still had value but moving Robert should have been a priority given his injury history and big statistical year.

He would've saved Jerry $30M and got about $30M worth of prospects back .

They probably would've had to pay off a large portion of Moncada $25M remaining contract but they ended up paying off all of it.

Eloy's final salary in 2024 was around $13M . The Sox probably would've ended up paying off most of that too if they had traded him after the 2023 season but might have got a better younger prospect than Trey McGough. The Os only ended up responsible for $1.5 million of his $3M buyout and the Sox essentially paid off all of his remaining contract.

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I just think this was very unrealistic in hindsight. The offers for 4 years of Luis Robert coming off a 38 homer season would’ve needed to be astronomical. They would’ve gotten more than they’d get now but nobody expected the 2024 he had. Getz would’ve been crucified for trading Robert during his first winter in charge because regardless of the return, it wouldn’t have been enough for 4 years of a superstar. 

[southsider2k5]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:27 PM, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I just think this was very unrealistic in hindsight. The offers for 4 years of Luis Robert coming off a 38 homer season would’ve needed to be astronomical. They would’ve gotten more than they’d get now but nobody expected the 2024 he had. Getz would’ve been crucified for trading Robert during his first winter in charge because regardless of the return, it wouldn’t have been enough for 4 years of a superstar. 

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Either he knew this was a rebuild and kept Robert, or he thought he could do something in 2024 and the immediate future that made keeping Robert worth it.

Either one isn't good.

[Y2Jimmy0]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:41 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Either he knew this was a rebuild and kept Robert, or he thought he could do something in 2024 and the immediate future that made keeping Robert worth it.

Either one isn't good.

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It’s not this easy. They gambled that Robert would be good in 2024 so they could more realistically get a trade return with 3.5 years of control. Now they have 3 years of control. What type of package would you have needed in the winter of 2023 to trade Robert with 4 years of control? 

[southsider2k5]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:45 PM, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It’s not this easy. They gambled that Robert would be good in 2024 so they could more realistically get a trade return with 3.5 years of control. Now they have 3 years of control. What type of package would you have needed in the winter of 2023 to trade Robert with 4 years of control? 

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Coming off of a career year in terms of both production and health if you really believed this was a long rebuild situation there was zero reason to not move Robert.  His health being exactly why.

[PaleAleSox]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:41 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Either he knew this was a rebuild and kept Robert, or he thought he could do something in 2024 and the immediate future that made keeping Robert worth it.

Either one isn't good.

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That's not true at all. The actual real third option was he still had too much time left on his contract and would have been really hard to get actual value. Everyone would have lost their mind if they traded him for "less than" and no team would have given up the farm for him.

[Y2Jimmy0]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:48 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Coming off of a career year in terms of both production and health if you really believed this was a long rebuild situation there was zero reason to not move Robert.  His health being exactly why.

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They weren't going to get value for Luis Robert on his contract with four years left though. Not everything has to be someone's fault. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:52 PM, PaleAleSox said:

That's not true at all. The actual real third option was he still had too much time left on his contract and would have been really hard to get actual value. Everyone would have lost their mind if they traded him for "less than" and no team would have given up the farm for him.

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100%. 

[southsider2k5]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:52 PM, PaleAleSox said:

That's not true at all. The actual real third option was he still had too much time left on his contract and would have been really hard to get actual value. Everyone would have lost their mind if they traded him for "less than" and no team would have given up the farm for him.

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The third option was to gamble on his health.  Again that is a terrible option. 

[SoxBlanco]

  On 2/16/2025 at 3:48 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Coming off of a career year in terms of both production and health if you really believed this was a long rebuild situation there was zero reason to not move Robert.  His health being exactly why.

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The reason for not moving him was that he had four years of control and no team would have given up enough. I remember the discussions here about it, and many people agreed it would have been dumb to move him at that point. 

[Jake]

By now, I really dislike the idea of trying to trade Robert. I would be shocked if the Sox could get a good offer for him right now and the only thing he costs the team right now is money, which is something they shouldn't be tight on. If he comes out blazing hot, then trade him. If he doesn't, try to rehabilitate his value with the knowledge that if he isn't living up to expectation, then the years ticking off his contract becomes a value-add. Rebuilding is all about going for upside. Why sell low on a player who clearly has extremely high upside?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

  On 2/16/2025 at 4:33 PM, SoxBlanco said:

The reason for not moving him was that he had four years of control and no team would have given up enough. I remember the discussions here about it, and many people agreed it would have been dumb to move him at that point. 

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You’re spot on. I was one of the few advocating the Sox trade Robert last winter and was told the idea was ridiculous by most here.

[Snopek]

  On 2/16/2025 at 4:40 PM, Jake said:

Rebuilding is all about going for upside. Why sell low on a player who clearly has extremely high upside?

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For me, rebuilding is all about going for upside that aligns with your timeline of competing. Robert very much does not fit that timeline and therefore he’s of less use to the Sox than what they can get in return for him.