T R U Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 6:26 PM, Snopek said: It wouldn't exactly be the craziest thing in the world for a former top prospect to figure it out at the age of 25. I get it. Odds are he doesn't amount to much, but to declare that it's impossible for him to improve is just wild. Expand Who declared it was impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 6:44 PM, T R U said: Who declared it was impossible? Expand Uh... On 3/19/2025 at 5:50 PM, T R U said: We already know Vargas sucks, his 500 MLB at bats tell us this. Expand Sure sounds like your mind is made up. 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 1:46 PM, PaleAleSox said: What are you giving up? A young pitcher? Expand Not sure to be honest with you. But trading some young pitching (outside of the big 3) would make sense, but doubt we have a headliner outside of that group that would meet their needs unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 6:56 PM, Snopek said: Uh... Sure sounds like your mind is made up. Expand He does suck, the stats and eye test have proven this. No one said it was impossible for him to improve. Anyway, I was replying to the comment that Mayo is "probably preferable" to Vargas, which to me, is the only wild statement made so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 7:00 PM, T R U said: He does suck, the stats and eye test have proven this. No one said it was impossible for him to improve. Anyway, I was replying to the comment that Mayo is "probably preferable" to Vargas, which to me, is the only wild statement made so far. Expand When you're basing his entire value only on what you've seen from him in the past, you're not really entertaining the idea that he can improve. But whatever, maybe it's just semantics. Not really a hill I care to die on either way. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 7:15 PM, Snopek said: When you're basing his entire value only on what you've seen from him in the past, you're not really entertaining the idea that he can improve. But whatever, maybe it's just semantics. Not really a hill I care to die on either way. Expand To be fair the best indicator of future performance is past performance, but obviously it isn't absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 6:57 PM, Chicago White Sox said: Not sure to be honest with you. But trading some young pitching (outside of the big 3) would make sense, but doubt we have a headliner outside of that group that would meet their needs unfortunately. Expand Then they can let him rot in AAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 7:15 PM, Snopek said: When you're basing his entire value only on what you've seen from him in the past, you're not really entertaining the idea that he can improve. But whatever, maybe it's just semantics. Not really a hill I care to die on either way. Expand Could he improve, yes. Has been been god awful in his 500 MLB at bats so far over 3 season, yes. Would I rather have Coby Mayo easily over Miguel Vargas, also yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 6:27 PM, southsider2k5 said: I don't know why these meme has taken off, but it is absurd. No one is going to be mad if a Sox player has a good year. Surprised, sure. Mad? That's just dumb. Expand If he were let go and had success elsewhere, perhaps there might br a few people upset by that. But every one of his detractors would be happy to be wrong if he were to figure it out and turn into a productive player, myself included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/19/2025 at 7:17 PM, T R U said: Could he improve, yes. Has been been god awful in his 500 MLB at bats so far over 3 season, yes. Would I rather have Coby Mayo easily over Miguel Vargas, also yes. Expand I would easily rather have had Nick Senzel than Austin Riley at one point, didn't mean reality subsequently followed suit. I would trade Vargas for Mayo too if I could, but that doesn't mean it's a slam dunk he outperforms him in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Is the relative value of Mayo vs. Miguel Vargas on March 19th, 2025 REALLY up for argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoUEvenShift Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 12:46 AM, caulfield12 said: Is the relative value of Mayo vs. Miguel Vargas on March 19th, 2025 REALLY up for argument? Expand Which one has a faster mile time? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 7:30 AM, caulfield12 said: The one area Mayo would have a decided advantage would be accumulating assists with his 60+ arm in LF or RF...if his lack of range didn't nullify that benefit. But he's unlikely to play OF anytime soon for Baltimore. Expand I think just using age and less failures so far Mayo is projected to have the better future. Looking at who's likely to be more productive in MLB in 2025 it's probably Vargas just because he's likely to play more in MLB this year. He just as easily can end up DFA'd though if he doesn't produce. Same goes for Sosa. Mayo has a couple of years before he reaches Vargas level of MLB incompetence and runs out of options but he can end up in that same boat and he isn't doing himself any favors by whining about life not being fair. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 7:41 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I think just using age and less failures so far Mayo is projected to have the better future. Looking at who's likely to be more productive in MLB in 2025 it's probably Vargas just because he's likely to play more in MLB this year. He just as easily can end up DFA'd though if he doesn't produce. Same goes for Sosa. Mayo has a couple of years before he reaches Vargas level of MLB incompetence and runs out of options but he can end up in that same boat and he isn't doing himself any favors by whining about life not being fair. Expand 100% accurate. The irony with Mayo is that it’s not like he missed out on making the Sox roster. Crying about not making a roster that already has Jordan Westburg at 3B is a bit ridiculous. MLB players have quite the egos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 7:41 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: he isn't doing himself any favors by whining about life not being fair. Expand Eh I don’t mind this part. I find it refreshing when players are actually honest and not robots. The part that gets me is, dude, you were OPS’ing .501 this spring on a stacked offensive team. Either force the issue or read the room a little better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 2:37 AM, WestEddy said: His stats on the Dodgers in 2024 represent above average production. And yes, Fangraphs does give Vargas a positive 0.2 fWAR for his 2024 time on the Dodgers. I'm not sure why this hurts you so much that you can't even read a stats site correctly. Will your friends in your grumpy gang make fun of you if you admit to reality? Expand So your argument for RUNS OF SUCCESS is isolating parts of 3 seasons down to 1 80 AB stretch where Vargas hit .239/.313/.423 for a whopping .736 OPS, with negative defensive ratings, ignoring the other 2/3 of the same continous season where he absolutely crated to .102/.215/.170 and a -1.2 WAR and are telling me that is him playing WELL? That's what you want to call REALITY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 1:00 PM, Snopek said: Eh I don’t mind this part. I find it refreshing when players are actually honest and not robots. The part that gets me is, dude, you were OPS’ing .501 this spring on a stacked offensive team. Either force the issue or read the room a little better. Expand I don't mind it either. I'm not the boss making decisions . Just saying if you become known as a problem child whether it's unwilling to make adjustments or whatever it's just another thing that could make you unwanted by another team. Coaches like guys with good attitudes and pliable. Once you establish yourself you can show your um, idiosyncrasies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 3:12 PM, southsider2k5 said: So your argument for RUNS OF SUCCESS is isolating parts of 3 seasons down to 1 80 AB stretch where Vargas hit .239/.313/.423 for a whopping .736 OPS, with negative defensive ratings, ignoring the other 2/3 of the same continous season where he absolutely crated to .102/.215/.170 and a -1.2 WAR and are telling me that is him playing WELL? That's what you want to call REALITY? Expand Hmmm. Something changed for Vargas in 2024, but I can't quite put my finger on it. It's almost like, if you look at his stats, they're actually separated into his time on the Dodgers and his time on the White Sox. One stat set has him producing (albeit in a small sample size) at an above average rate, and the other has his production cratering. I'm sure that if his coaches were working with him, they might have said something like, "let's look at some tape of WHEN YOU WERE PRODUCING and see if something changed." They wouldn't shrug their shoulders and say, well, looking at your entire career, you suck, so there's nothing to work on. LOL. I can't imagine how somebody is so broken that they become afraid of themself making fun of themself under a different login for accepting reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 3:12 PM, southsider2k5 said: So your argument for RUNS OF SUCCESS is isolating parts of 3 seasons down to 1 80 AB stretch where Vargas hit .239/.313/.423 for a whopping .736 OPS, with negative defensive ratings, ignoring the other 2/3 of the same continous season where he absolutely crated to .102/.215/.170 and a -1.2 WAR and are telling me that is him playing WELL? That's what you want to call REALITY? Expand That’s a good player to WE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 3:58 PM, WestEddy said: Hmmm. Something changed for Vargas in 2024, but I can't quite put my finger on it. It's almost like, if you look at his stats, they're actually separated into his time on the Dodgers and his time on the White Sox. One stat set has him producing (albeit in a small sample size) at an above average rate, and the other has his production cratering. I'm sure that if his coaches were working with him, they might have said something like, "let's look at some tape of WHEN YOU WERE PRODUCING and see if something changed." They wouldn't shrug their shoulders and say, well, looking at your entire career, you suck, so there's nothing to work on. LOL. I can't imagine how somebody is so broken that they become afraid of themself making fun of themself under a different login for accepting reality. Expand I honestly think it was depression. Imagine the natural high he was feeling stepping onto a field wearing a dodger uniform and the subsequent crash of having that rug pulled out from under you. Just making that roster would be a major accomplishment. Next thing you know you might as well be on the '62 Mets. '62 Mets experience was so depressing it caused Richie Ashburn to retire despite being healthy, coming off a .300+ BA/.420 OBP season, and still having 3000 hits within realm of possibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) On 3/20/2025 at 3:58 PM, WestEddy said: Hmmm. Something changed for Vargas in 2024, but I can't quite put my finger on it. It's almost like, if you look at his stats, they're actually separated into his time on the Dodgers and his time on the White Sox. One stat set has him producing (albeit in a small sample size) at an above average rate, and the other has his production cratering. I'm sure that if his coaches were working with him, they might have said something like, "let's look at some tape of WHEN YOU WERE PRODUCING and see if something changed." They wouldn't shrug their shoulders and say, well, looking at your entire career, you suck, so there's nothing to work on. LOL. I can't imagine how somebody is so broken that they become afraid of themself making fun of themself under a different login for accepting reality. Expand If we are hoping and praying for guys to put up a .736 OPS and even that kind of mediocre performance is still in question, this second rebuild is already dead in the water. Edited March 20 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 4:16 PM, WhiteSox2023 said: If we are hoping and praying for guys to put up a .736 OPS and even that kind of mediocre performance is still in question, this second rebuild is already dead in the water. Expand That doesn't even make sense. If one guy hypotheticaly puts up a slightly above average OPS, then the rebuild is dead in the water? Do you actually consider that a rational statement 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 4:16 PM, WhiteSox2023 said: If we are hoping and praying for guys to put up a .736 OPS and even that kind of mediocre performance is still in question, this second rebuild is already dead in the water. Expand Are you even following the conversation? That .736 OPS was better than the MLB average. Can you please explain how you're "hoping and praying" to have a team of hitters who don't hit as well as .736 makes a better rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) On 3/20/2025 at 4:27 PM, WestEddy said: Are you even following the conversation? That .736 OPS was better than the MLB average. Can you please explain how you're "hoping and praying" to have a team of hitters who don't hit as well as .736 makes a better rebuild? Expand Nevermind, I looked at Vargas’s stats again and he did that in 80 plate appearances. 🤣 Talk about small sample sizes… 😴💤 Edited March 20 by WhiteSox2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2025 at 4:34 PM, WhiteSox2023 said: Nevermind, I looked at Vargas’s stats again and he did that in 80 plate appearances. 🤣 Talk about small sample sizes… 😴💤 Expand Why am I not surprised that you would argue about something for a full hour without even realizing what you were arguing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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