CubKilla Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I've read in the newspapers and in Time Magazine that he has. I don't follow the man around everywhere he goes. Normally when people resort to namecalling they've lost. He met privately with 24 families that lost loved ones in Iraq a week or so ago during a visit to, I think, Colorado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 At least Gore was in country in 'Nam As a journalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 As a journalist Better than Bush just going AWOL thanks to his daddy getting him into the Champagne division Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 A footnote from MSNBC.com, George is hardly the first President to do this... There is nothing novel about presidential visits to war zones at holiday time. Bill Clinton went to Kosovo for Thanksgiving in 1999, Lyndon B. Johnson went to Vietnam for Christmas in 1967, and President-elect Dwight D. Eisenhower visited Korean battle fronts in 1952. Richard M. Nixon also traveled to Vietnam, in 1969. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Do you think while Bush was there he explained why his administration went to court to overturn the verdicts in favor of US servicepeople who got civil judgments against Iraq for torture while they were POWs in 1991? all the pro Bushies out there - argue about the draft and service in Vietnam which none of you had to face - ever- fact is CO was not something that was at all easy to get so it was "available" - and it required a eomonstration that one was truly a pacifist based on religious grounds and that was not something that everyone who opposes vietnam could claim - Clinton did not dodge the draft, he opposed it, he did not serve because of student deferments, as did many, and in the code of honor, that was high above those who used family connections to get in the guard and then went AWOL from there - there be distinctions here that a generation that has never faced the draft (let alone in wartime) can fathom - and nuke, your info in what Clinton did in England is urban GOP myth, not truth - lets look at what all the Bushies have avoided - what about that. What about the denial of monetary civil claims against Iraq that our POWS from 1991 won in court and the Bush administration has gone to court and had overturned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 As a journalist journalist was front line, CK, not behind the lines, but front line not fair to mock Gore on that, not fair at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Some people think that if someone is to be commander in chief of the military then he ought to have served in uniform. Too bad the framers of the constitution didn't think of that one. We could start a war every once in a while to assure enough future presidents. Also remember our military isn't exactly over flowing with children born with a silver spoon in the mouths. When we had a draft, a lot of parents tried to keep their kids out of the service. Some families had the wealth, contacts, and influence to make it happen. Those parents were both Dems and Reps. There are also individuals that accepted the call to arms and they too, come from both sides of the isle. The all volunteer military isn't exactly swimming in wealth and priveledge. LHow many of those soldiers you see look like they skipped Harvard to sleep in the sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I don't understand why anyone would pooh-pooh Bush's visit to Baghdad. The soldiers seemed to appreciate it very much, so why would anyone need to know anything more than that? The soldiers loved it and it was important to them, end of story. Of course there will be people like Apu that will claim they were hand-picked Bush lovers. That's just plain silly. Do you think they filled out questionnaires asking if they'd like to meet the Prez and based on that got to eat Thanksgiving dinner? At this point, Bush could walk water and people would claim that there were no sharks in the water so it's no big deal. As for the banning of cameras as caskets are taken off the planes, this is nothing new. There has been a ban since 1989. Clinton enforced the ban, only making a few exceptions for soldiers killed by terrorists. I don't recall seeing the slain of Mogadishu being taken off the plane. While many scoff at the administration's claim that it is for the privacy of the families, there are families that appreciate the ban... On the other side of the debate is Ruth Stonesifer of Kintnersville, Pa. Her son Kris, an Army Ranger, was killed in Pakistan in October 2001. She supports the media restrictions. "A family who feels very strongly and is very proud of their son's service to his country takes a risk when the media portrays his homecoming in a very negative light as just a body count," she says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Better than Bush just going AWOL thanks to his daddy getting him into the Champagne division haha, that just tells me Bush Sr had more clout than Gore Sr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 journalist was front line, CK, not behind the lines, but front line not fair to mock Gore on that, not fair at all haha.... hhahahaha. hhhhha. sorry. "front lines" with two GI body guards who were under strict instructions to keep Gorey boy away from anything that looked at him. "so chillllllll, til the next episode........" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I don't understand why anyone would pooh-pooh Bush's visit to Baghdad. The soldiers seemed to appreciate it very much, so why would anyone need to know anything more than that? The soldiers loved it and it was important to them, end of story. Of course there will be people like Apu that will claim they were hand-picked Bush lovers. That's just plain silly. Do you think they filled out questionnaires asking if they'd like to meet the Prez and based on that got to eat Thanksgiving dinner? At this point, Bush could walk water and people would claim that there were no sharks in the water so it's no big deal. As for the banning of cameras as caskets are taken off the planes, this is nothing new. There has been a ban since 1989. Clinton enforced the ban, only making a few exceptions for soldiers killed by terrorists. I don't recall seeing the slain of Mogadishu being taken off the plane. While many scoff at the administration's claim that it is for the privacy of the families, there are families that appreciate the ban... On the other side of the debate is Ruth Stonesifer of Kintnersville, Pa. Her son Kris, an Army Ranger, was killed in Pakistan in October 2001. She supports the media restrictions. "A family who feels very strongly and is very proud of their son's service to his country takes a risk when the media portrays his homecoming in a very negative light as just a body count," she says. The troops of the Abe Lincoln when Bush played fighter pilot and declared "Mission Accomplished" were actually screened before being allowed to be there for Bush's speech. They were screened on whether or not they agreed with Bush's policies. Earlier this year, Bush was to give a speech to the EU and he would not go because they would not make sure that the entire audience was filled with only people who agreed with Bush. It's why Bush wouldn't go in front of Parliament with Blair when he was recently in London. At least our last elected President had the balls to go to places to give speeches where people may not agree with him [check out the video of when Clinton gave a speech at the Vietnam Memorial and you can hear vet's heckling him] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 haha, that just tells me Bush Sr had more clout than Gore Sr. That's what you get when your dad is a director of the CIA and has lots of contacts in the TX legislature. At least it's not as bad as Rush's anal cyst that kept him from serving. Or Dick Cheney's "better things to do". It's just fun to see the blatant hypocricy of the chickenhawks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 journalist was front line, CK, not behind the lines, but front line not fair to mock Gore on that, not fair at all Frontline huh? Tell me, how did Gore operate his rifle with a pen and paper in his hand? The fact that this goof claims to "tours" in Vietnam..... as a journalist there..... is a smack in the face to anyone who performed a legitimate "tour" over there. Do I agree with what the Bush family did during Vietnam to ensure GWB's safety? No. But I find it extremely hypocritical that the lefty's on this board rip and tear Bush apart when discussing the military draft during Vietnam but talk about Clinton as "..... not dodg(ing) the draft.....", rather it was because Clinton received ".....student deferments.....", and equate the above to anything resembling some warped "..... code of honor", and compare Gore to RAMBO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Frontline huh? Tell me, how did Gore operate his rifle with a pen and paper in his hand? The fact that this goof claims to "tours" in Vietnam..... as a journalist there..... is a smack in the face to anyone who performed a legitimate "tour" over there. Do I agree with what the Bush family did during Vietnam to ensure GWB's safety? No. But I find it extremely hypocritical that the lefty's on this board rip and tear Bush apart when discussing the military draft during Vietnam but talk about Clinton as "..... not dodg(ing) the draft.....", rather it was because Clinton received ".....student deferments.....", and equate the above to anything resembling some warped "..... code of honor", and compare Gore to RAMBO. The fact that the chickenhawks of both parties never served yet gleefully scream about sending troops to die in foreign lands makes me sick. Is there a difference between what Clinton did and what Dubya did to dodge? Yes. Clinton got student deferments. Bush had his dad call the TX legislature and got him vaulted over the hundreds of thousands of applicants that applied before him in the TX Air National Guard and that had higher test scores [bush scored so low on the test, if he would have been 1 point lower he would have been "too dumb to fly"] After getting in, Bush just left and went AWOL because he didn't want to take a physical. [Popular theory is that this is the same time Bush was doing cocaine and he went AWOL so he wouldn't have to take a physical and get busted] But then Bush has the balls to say that he left the military because the plane he flew was retired? Too bad the plane model retirement didn't happen until after he went AWOL for a while. If you're outraged about Gore being compared to Rambo for being a military journalist during Vietnam, then you should be really f***ing pissed that Bush goes AWOL then acts like a fighter pilot. I think Clinton was hypocritical especially when he said in regards to Columbine that we should not use weapons to solve our problems...and...oddly enough the day Columbine went down was the same day that the US dropped the greatest amount of bombs in Yugoslavia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 If all Bush wanted to do was cheer up and motivate the GIs he didn't need pool reporters along. He risked the secret getting out for great publicity. As far as trying to keep their son's or themselves alive, this isn't anything new. We've had people trying to stay out of combat in every war. Vietnam, and to a lesser extent Korea, increase those because the causes didn't seem good enough to die for. Our military is made up primarily of poor, rural minorities. In 20 years, unless we start electing poor, rural minorities to office, we won't have candidates with any military service. The United States has killed more people in war than any other civilization in history. We are a lean mean killin' machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 all I'm saying is if you don't want to serve, that's fine...leave the states and never come back. There's never going to be another draft, but if there were, I know a few close friends who I would no longer be friends with and I'd shoot them if they tried to come back to the states. The government supplies options for "consciencious objectors." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 all I'm saying is if you don't want to serve, that's fine...leave the states and never come back. There's never going to be another draft, but if there were, I know a few close friends who I would no longer be friends with and I'd shoot them if they tried to come back to the states. The government supplies options for "consciencious objectors." Too bad it's incredibly hard to get CO status. There are plenty of people that apply for it and never get it despite being CO's to war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Oh man am I glad I'm not apu and I don't spend my life b****ing about every single thing the president does on a baseball message board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 all I'm saying is if you don't want to serve, that's fine...leave the states and never come back. There's never going to be another draft, but if there were, I know a few close friends who I would no longer be friends with and I'd shoot them if they tried to come back to the states. The government supplies options for "consciencious objectors." The military as an all volunteer force should not have any provision for contientious objectors. If you sign the paperwork and put on the uniform of your own free will then you should accept the fact that you may get sent into combat & be expected to fire shots at our enemies in anger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Oh man am I glad I'm not apu and I don't spend my life b****ing about every single thing the president does on a baseball message board. LMFAO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 The government supplies options for "consciencious objectors." And wealth and influence provides options for others. Ultimately the government decides if you are a consciencious objector or not. Seems like an unfair system to me. PA, I'm certain your close friends are glad to know you would murder them in an instant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 The military as an all volunteer force should not have any provision for contientious objectors. If you sign the paperwork and put on the uniform of your own free will then you should accept the fact that you may get sent into combat & be expected to fire shots at our enemies in anger. son, please... in the event of a non-volunteer draft, such as in the case of Vietnam, the government now has provisions for those who believe war is wrong. If you disagree with that then...nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 If there were a draft . . . Before anyone could be drafted, Congress and the President would have to enact legislation authorizing new draft calls. Under present law (which would probably change with a new draft), Selective Service would first select randomly among those who turned 20 in the calendar year of the call-up (the famous "lottery" system). In practice, while it's possible that a draft could move beyond the age 20 selection group, the odds are against it. If you were called up, you would receive an induction notice requiring you to report on a certain date not less than 10 days from the date of the notice, to a Military Entrance Processing Station (MEPS) unless you filed a claim for exemption or deferment. Filing a claim involves no more than checking a box on a form, and submitting it it the Selective Service. After the SSS receives the claim, they will send you more forms to complete. You must apply for any and all exemptions for which you think you may qualify, and/or for classification as a conscientious objector. At this writing, the major possible exemptions and classifications are: a minister or divinity student the sole surviving son of a family whose father, mother or siblings have died as a result of military action the sole financial or other support to family members who are dependent, elderly, disabled and/or ill physically or mentally incapable of being in the military lesbian, gay or bisexual a conscientious objector. After you filed a claim, your induction date will be postponed while the draft board evaluates its validity. If your claim is rejected, you will receive a new induction date. CCCO would help you find lawyers and/or counselors to help you through the lengthy appeals process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 "a minister or divinity student " my papers for seminary are already prefilled out. Edit: PA, I'm certain your close friends are glad to know you would murder them in an instant. obviously they don't believe in what this country stands for and the freedoms which they have by living here. It just pisses me off that people like that exist. They love the freedom of speech, the freedom to print whatever they way, to criticize everyone and everything, but the second something like defending that freedom comes up and their responsibility is called on..."oh no, i'm going to canada" ok, that's your choice, but it's my choice to stay and make sure you don't ever come back. I'm sorry. There are options if you want to stay, but to say you're gonna leave and then come back? no f***ing way. Too many "volunteers" (dont even get me started on the fact that so many of these so called volunteers in our armed forces only have the option to join the army because it's the only way they'll make more than minimum wage because of what situation and economic plight they were born into.) so these "volunteers" as we call them die for our right to b****, as I call it. All I'm saying is step up to the plate A-holes. I know I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 "a minister or divinity student " my papers for seminary are already prefilled out. "physically incapable of being in the military" Woohoo for eye problems with my left eye that have me technically legally blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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