Castillo may be a Cub

[BrandoFan]

You can look at Bartolo however you want.  I didn't say # 1 starter for a reason because I knew that would be debated.  But I can guarantee you that KW and the Sox don't view Colon in that light. 

 

What makes you think his "rubber arm is about to fall off"?  Any evidence?  Seems that if teams are willing to give him big money, they would know more than we do about his health.

I couldn't care less how berrybarry competent K-Dub views it. There is a reason why in the last 2 seasons this team averaged 83.5 wins in one of the most pathetic divisions of ALL TIME.....Brilliant minds, they all are.

 

Colon? 12 mill a year to basically a 4.00 ERA pitcher (and that while pitching against such offensive powerhouses as Detroit, Cleveland, KC and Twins!!!) who is 32, overweight and whose jerky throwing motionis especially hard on his shoulder/elbow....when your entire payroll is barely above 50 Mill?

 

There rumors flying around about him finally succumbing to wear-n-tear. His fastball topped out at 95-97 in 2003 after hitting 97-100 most of his career. His curveball wasn't working for most of the year. Ditto for slider. He got hammered every time he tried to nibble with his off-speed stuff.

 

Close to 80% of his pitchers were heaters. GOD FORBID his velocity naturally declines ala Pedro Martinez....He is a 5.00 ERA if he has to live on a low-90s fastball.

[Rex Hudler]

I couldn't care less how berrybarry competent K-Dub views it.    There is a reason why in the last 2 seasons this team averaged 83.5 wins in one of the most pathetic divisions of ALL TIME.....Brilliant minds, they all are. 

 

Colon?  12 mill a year to basically a 4.00 ERA pitcher (and that while pitching against such offensive powerhouses as Detroit, Cleveland, KC and Twins!!!) who is 32, overweight and whose jerky throwing motionis especially hard on his shoulder/elbow....when your entire payroll is barely above 50 Mill?

 

There rumors flying around about him finally succumbing to wear-n-tear. His fastball topped out at 95-97 in 2003 after hitting 97-100 most of his career.  His curveball wasn't working for most of the year.  Ditto for slider.  He got hammered every time he tried to nibble with his off-speed stuff.

 

Close to 80% of his pitchers were heaters. GOD FORBID his velocity naturally declines ala Pedro Martinez....He is a 5.00 ERA if he has to live on a low-90s fastball.

Colon hit 100 mph more than any other Major League pitcher this year, according to ESPN.

 

You don't have to argue the point that you don't think he is worth $12 million because that is indeed arguable. But I don't see any evidence that he is falling apart other than high pitch counts and many innings pitched. That could apply to lots of pitchers. He may be about to fall apart...... it may be next year or it may be 5 years from now.

[SuperSteve]

Colon hit 100 mph more than any other Major League pitcher this year, according to ESPN. 

 

You don't have to argue the point that  you don't think he is worth $12 million because that is indeed arguable.  But I don't see any evidence that he is falling apart other than high pitch counts and many innings pitched.  That could apply to lots of pitchers.  He may be about to fall apart...... it may be next year or it may be 5 years from now.

Nope. Sports Illistrated and ESPN both had big things about Billy Wagner hitting 100 mph 150+ times.

[BrandoFan]

Colon hit 100 mph more than any other Major League pitcher this year, according to ESPN

 

That's just laughable. Unless they used the worthless Comiskey radar gun, that is.

 

 

I've watched or taped probably 3/4 of all Sox games, and I've NEVER seen him hit 99-100. Never. With Cleveland, he used to hit 99-100 at least once or twice a game. With us, he was mostly 94-96. Tom Gordon territory.

[SuperSteve]

That's just laughable.  Unless they used the worthless Comiskey radar gun, that is.

 

 

I've watched or taped probably 3/4 of all Sox games, and I've NEVER seen him hit 99-100. Never.  With Cleveland, he used to hit 99-100 at least once or twice a game.  With us, he was mostly 94-96.  Tom Gordon territory.

I wish I could find the SI article. IIRC Wagner hit 100 mph 150ish times, while rest of league hit it 40ish times. It was something like that.

[Chisoxfn]

I can specifically remember Bart late in games hitting 99 and 100 a few times. He was gunning it later and later in the season. Early in the season there were quite a few times where he was in the low 90's.

 

Bart is a horse though, he makes our rotation so much better. If the Sox lose them, they better find another type of ace. Bart is a guy that can absolutely carry you in a playoff series and break losing streaks. Those are the kind of guys the Sox need.

[BrandoFan]

Bart is a horse though, he makes our rotation so much better. If the Sox lose them, they better find another type of ace. Bart is a guy that can absolutely carry you in a playoff series and break losing streaks. Those are the kind of guys the Sox need.

 

He's only been that type of player ONCE in his career. That was in 2002.

 

As far as velocity, what gun readings are you referring to? I am talking about WGN. USCF gun has always been way to fast.

[Chisoxfn]

He's only been that type of player ONCE in his career.  That was in 2002.

 

As far as velocity, what gun readings are you referring to?  I am talking about WGN. USCF gun has always been way to fast.

Gun readings I'm referring to are the ones I saw on Fox Sports and WGN. Late in the games his velocity was up, but early in the season it wasn't even near the case.

 

Still the fact that he could get it into the upper 90's in the 8th or 9th inning (See the New York Game) shows me something. I'd definately have some doubt about any pitcher thats thrown and been used the way he has, but his shoulder seems to be rubber.

[supernuke]

Luis Castillo may not be a Marlin as the Cubs are offering an option of a 4th year, just like the Marlins.  The Marlins package is worth an estimated 21.5 mill over 4 years (4th year is an option...its 15.5 mill over 3 years).  Why the hell are we paying Jose 5 mill a year when we could get Castillo at that.

Four words, Kenny Williams Jerry Reinsdorf

[Rex Hudler]

Nope. Sports Illistrated and ESPN both had big things about Billy Wagner hitting 100 mph 150+ times.

You are correct. Bart had the most in the AL. Billy Wagner did indeed blow everyone else away in that category.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

I hate the Cubs. Them losing 100 games next season would thrill me almost as much as Sox winning 100 games. 

 

Having said that, they have MUCH better fans than we do.  Sorry, it's true.

Now hold on there. At any given Cub game there are 12,000 Cub fans, and 26,000 fans of sunshine, beer and bars in the neighborhood. Don't give me any crap about them being better fans than Sox fans.

[SuperSteve]

You are correct.  Bart had the most in the AL.  Billy Wagner did indeed blow everyone else away in that category.

I honestly found that staggering. I would have expected so many more, with Farnsworth, Colon, Anderson (who fell off the face of the Earth), and several other guys who can hit 100 mph.

[BrandoFan]

Now hold on there. At any given Cub game there are 12,000 Cub fans, and 26,000 fans of sunshine, beer and bars in the neighborhood. Don't give me any crap about them being better fans than Sox fans.

Yeah, yeah, we all know Sox fans are more insightful, noble and critical. Blablabla.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, all Cub fans do is pack the park. If they had a stadium with as much capacity as USCF, had night games and a bunch of half-price s***, they'd get 3.5 Mill a year. Easy. Meanwhile, if Sox had a smaller park with a bunch of day games and no promotions, 1.4 Mill would be a problem.

 

At the end of the day, they will have a high payroll with a chance to get any player they like. We can't even keep Maggs.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

Yeah, yeah, we all know Sox fans are more insightful, noble and critical.  Blablabla.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, all Cub fans do is pack the park.  If they had a stadium with as much capacity as USCF, had night games and a bunch of half-price s***, they'd get 3.5 Mill a year. Easy.  Meanwhile, if Sox had a smaller park with a bunch of day games and no promotions, 1.4 Mill would be a problem.

 

At the end of the day, they will have a high payroll with a chance to get any player they like.  We can't even keep Maggs.

I am aware they pack the park - we were discussing why. No argument about the results.

 

The Sox theme song next year? The Poor Side of Town.

[BrandoFan]

Look, am I the only who thinks Colon didn't throw as hard as he did pre-2002 ASB?

 

I swear I haven't seen him reach 100 ONCE on TV.

 

I remember noticing the same thing with Billy Koch 2 years ago, and I was prophetic there.

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah, yeah, we all know Sox fans are more insightful, noble and critical.  Blablabla.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, all Cub fans do is pack the park.  If they had a stadium with as much capacity as USCF, had night games and a bunch of half-price s***, they'd get 3.5 Mill a year. Easy.  Meanwhile, if Sox had a smaller park with a bunch of day games and no promotions, 1.4 Mill would be a problem.

 

At the end of the day, they will have a high payroll with a chance to get any player they like.  We can't even keep Maggs.

I think if you look at the statistics in the 80's you'd notice that the Sox were typically outdrawing the Cubs. Actually it was pretty up and down but the point is this wasn't always a Cub town. With Nex Comiskey the Sox were the big draws for about 2 years, then the strike hit and the negative publicity came out and the Sox payroll took a dive. Despite that it really hasn't been that long of a time with the Cubs outdrawing the Sox. The problem is this is a rare time period where they are outdrawing them while having a not so good record (Other then this year).

 

Sox fans got tired of it, but by all means there are a lot of Sox fans. The key is JR has to get those fans back and frankly he won't do that without winning a series and it doesn't seem like management is willing to spend a few extra mill when it can really make the difference. I'm not saying 70 or even 80 mill, but spend the money to get the pitching and fill some holes and that type of stuff to make the team competitive, hell 65 mill would be plenty, imo.

 

He won't do that and he's alientated way too many fans. Truly the best thing for this organization is a new owner with a new attitude. Not necessarilyi a I'm gonna buy this thing attitude (Although I don't think we'd complain about that) but someone wliling to fork out a little extra cash when he knows it could make a difference and one that truly goes out and gives an all when the team has a shot.

 

If you suck, then screw spending the money, work on rebuilding, and instead spend the money on your drafts.

[Chisoxfn]

Look, am I the only who thinks Colon didn't throw as hard as he did pre-2002 ASB? 

 

I swear I haven't seen him reach 100 ONCE on TV.

 

I remember noticing the same thing with Billy Koch 2 years ago, and I was prophetic there.

No, he didn't throw as hard, but part of it was because he became a bit more of a pitcher and he emphasized the changeup a lot more and was working on other pitches. He wasn't near as effective as he could be and your right, the curve and slider weren't there, but I never remembered him having much of a curve/slider. He's always been a good off speed pitch away from winning a Cy Young.

 

Colon is still one of the few guys I'd classify as a true 1.

[BrandoFan]

I think if you look at the statistics in the 80's you'd notice that the Sox were typically outdrawing the Cubs.  Actually it was pretty up and down but the point is this wasn't always a Cub town.  With Nex Comiskey the Sox were the big draws for about 2 years, then the strike hit and the negative publicity came out and the Sox payroll took a dive.  Despite that it really hasn't been that long of a time with the Cubs outdrawing the Sox.  The problem is this is a rare time period where they are outdrawing them while having a not so good record (Other then this year). 

 

Sox fans got tired of it, but by all means there are a lot of Sox fans.  The key is JR has to get those fans back and frankly he won't do that without winning a series and it doesn't seem like management is willing to spend a few extra mill when it can really make the difference.  I'm not saying 70 or even 80 mill, but spend the money to get the pitching and fill some holes and that type of stuff to make the team competitive, hell 65 mill would be plenty, imo. 

 

He won't do that and he's alientated way too many fans.  Truly the best thing for this organization is a new owner with a new attitude.  Not necessarilyi a I'm gonna buy this thing attitude (Although I don't think we'd complain about that) but someone wliling to fork out a little extra cash when he knows it could make a difference and one that truly goes out and gives an all when the team has a shot. 

 

If you suck, then screw spending the money, work on rebuilding, and instead spend the money on your drafts.

I truly believe if Sox were to win the World Sries, Sox fans would still whine about the seat color, traffic, etc.

 

Loyalty is loyalty, and we ain't got much of it, let's face it.

 

 

Ano, no, 65 Mill is NOT nearly enough to compete with the big guns. Marlins and Angels were flukes.

[YASNY]

I truly believe if Sox were to win the World Sries, Sox fans would still whine about the seat color, traffic, etc.

 

Loyalty is loyalty, and we ain't got much of it, let's face it.

 

 

Ano, no, 65 Mill is NOT nearly enough to compete with the big guns.  Marlins and Angels were flukes.

$65 million should be plenty to win the AL Central. Once you are in the playoffs, anythingcan happen. The Marlins and Angels may be flukes, but they also serve as examples to my last statement.

[YASNY]

Also, Luis Castillo resigned with the Marlins on Monday. Three year, 16 million dollar contract.

 

 

EDIT: Oops. Hadn't seen the thread about the signing.

[Rex Hudler]

Now hold on there. At any given Cub game there are 12,000 Cub fans, and 26,000 fans of sunshine, beer and bars in the neighborhood. Don't give me any crap about them being better fans than Sox fans.

I have always heard it estimated that about 30-40% of fans at Wrigley were there for the park as much as rooting for the Cubs. Taking 40% of 36,000, you get 14,400.

 

So if there are 21,600 Cub fans and 14,400 fans who are there for a good time, then that is still basically the same amount of "true" fans as what the Sox drew this year and more than in the past few years.

 

Why penalize the Cubs for providing an atmosphere for people having a good time? I thought baseball was supposed to be fun? I sure as hell wouldn't mind having fun at a ball game whether my team wins or loses.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

I have always heard it estimated that about 30-40% of fans at Wrigley were there for the park as much as rooting for the Cubs.  Taking 40% of 36,000, you get 14,400.

 

So if there are 21,600 Cub fans and 14,400 fans who are there for a good time, then that is still basically the same amount of "true" fans as what the Sox drew this year and more than in the past few years.

 

Why penalize the Cubs for providing an atmosphere for people having a good time?  I thought baseball was supposed to be fun?  I sure as hell wouldn't mind having fun at a ball game whether my team wins or loses.

Rex, I was just responding to the notion that Cub fans are better than Sox fans. Obviously there's no way to quantify how many people at Cub games are fans of the baseball team, as opposed to fans of sunshine, beer and babes. I do know this - there's a hell of a lot of buses from Iowa at Wrigley Field, and I suspect they are not there because of the quality of baseball being played. Another small piece of evidence - Murph (Cub fan extraordinare) and Fred will occasionally send a reporter with a tape recorder into the bleachers and ask a random fan questions like - and I am not making this up - who's playing center field for the Cubs. Random fan pops it up, so to speak.

 

So I'm not begrudging them their fun, and I wish my team had their budget, but I won't accept the notion that they are better fans than Sox fans.

 

By the way, I always enjoy your viewpoints.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

I have always heard it estimated that about 30-40% of fans at Wrigley were there for the park as much as rooting for the Cubs.  Taking 40% of 36,000, you get 14,400.

 

So if there are 21,600 Cub fans and 14,400 fans who are there for a good time, then that is still basically the same amount of "true" fans as what the Sox drew this year and more than in the past few years.

 

Why penalize the Cubs for providing an atmosphere for people having a good time?  I thought baseball was supposed to be fun?  I sure as hell wouldn't mind having fun at a ball game whether my team wins or loses.

Rex, I was just responding to the notion that Cub fans are better than Sox fans. Obviously there's no way to quantify how many people at Cub games are fans of the baseball team, as opposed to fans of sunshine, beer and babes. I do know this - there's a hell of a lot of buses from Iowa at Wrigley Field, and I suspect they are not there because of the quality of baseball being played. Another small piece of evidence - Murph (Cub fan extraordinare) and Fred will occasionally send a reporter with a tape recorder into the bleachers and ask a random fan questions like - and I am not making this up - who's playing center field for the Cubs. Random fan pops it up, so to speak.

 

So I'm not begrudging them their fun, and I wish my team had their budget, but I won't accept the notion that they are better fans than Sox fans.

 

By the way, I always enjoy your viewpoints.

[Rex Hudler]

By the way, I always enjoy your viewpoints.

 

You enjoy them so much that you had to post it twice?

 

My guess is that the buses from Iowa have a large part in the fact that the Iowa Cubs are their AAA team, but that is beside the point.

 

I agree that there is no way to quantify the types of fans at a game. I guess I was just trying to make a point that fans go to baseball games for different reasons and are not all real educated. That goes for every team, including the Sox. Baseball today is as much entertainment for family and friends as it is about die-hard fans. Some go to drink beer and soak up some sun. Others go to people watch as much as watch the game. Others go and keep score and try to be blind to all the distractions. Many others are somewhere in between.

 

I think the bottom line is, that for whatever reason a fan goes to a game should be good enough as long as they go. And the Cubs have more that go, so their budget can be higher. Until more people go to Sox games, that won't change. We discussed why Sox fans don't go ad naseum, so let's not go there. It's just a simple fact that things won't change unless they go more often or there are more that go to games, for whatever reason suits them.