Bush to repeal steel tariffs

[southsider2k5]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/999705.asp?0cv=CB10

[FlaSoxxJim]

I heard an NPR piece a couple of weeks ago after the WTO ruling was announced speculating that it was going to go this way. It's probably better for the overall national economy, although it will hit the steel producers hard. Those are states that could go either way in 2004 so it will be interesting.

 

On a side note, I'm coming to the conclusion that the very real threat of WTO sanctions will be the only way the United States is going to be held accountable for its contributions to global climate change and the administrations refusal to do anything about it. The world's scientists should soon be able to present unambiguous proof that US-created pollution is harming multiple international economies, even if American scientists have been effectively muted on the subject. Hopefully something like this happens sooner rather than later, even though it's going to send the economy into the crapper. That, sadly, will be the cost of bailing on Kyoto, relaxing anti-pollution laws, and deciding to go it as a rogue polluter nation.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I heard an NPR piece a couple of weeks ago after the WTO ruling was announced speculating that it was going to go this way.  It's probably better for the overall national economy, although it will hit the steel producers hard.  Those are states that could go either way in 2004 so it will be interesting.

 

On a side note, I'm coming to the conclusion that the very real threat of WTO sanctions will be the only way the United States is going to be held accountable for its contributions to global climate change and the administrations refusal to do anything about it.  The world's scientists should soon be able to present unambiguous proof that US-created pollution is harming multiple international economies, even if American scientists have been effectively muted on the subject.  Hopefully something like this happens sooner rather than later, even though it's going to send the economy into the crapper.  That, sadly, will be the cost of bailing on Kyoto, relaxing anti-pollution laws, and deciding to go it as a rogue polluter nation.

Kyoto was a bad deal for America. It would have slapped onerous restrictions on US industry while allowing third world nations and other countries like China and Mexico to pollute away with no restrictions. We were right to not ratify that treaty.

[BrandoFan]

Kyoto was a bad deal for America. It would have slapped onerous restrictions on US industry while allowing third world nations and other countries like China and Mexico to pollute away with no restrictions

 

We are FIRST world. They are THIRD world. Perspective?

 

When do we stop pretending we NEED an even playing field in absolutely everything? If anything, it's in OUR interest to see those countries do as WELL as possible, provided it doesn't completely cripple us, which Kyoto, as "unfair" as it is, would not do.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

We are FIRST world.  They are THIRD world.  Perspective?

 

When do we stop pretending we NEED an even playing field in absolutely everything?  If anything, it's in OUR interest to see those countries do as WELL as possible, provided it doesn't completely cripple us, which Kyoto, as "unfair" as it is, would not do.

We're losing enough jobs to these "third world" nations as it is. Who cares though, we need to screw ourselves some more with this Kyoto madness. That crap wont happen though so I'm not gonna spazz about it anymore.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Kyoto was a bad deal for America.  It would have slapped onerous restrictions on US industry while allowing third world nations and other countries like China and Mexico to pollute away with no restrictions.  We were right to not ratify that treaty.

Kyoto is a mere baby step in the right direction as far as reversing global climate change. A number of independent analyses have concluded that the cost in the near future of not ratifying the treaty will easily be more than the cost of ratifying it. The most exhorbidant worldwide cost estimates for fixing the problems caused by human-induced climate change is more that 20 QUADRILLION dollars over 100 years. That's something like 50 times the world GDP, and in single dollars laid end to end it would reach past Pluto. Many other clean-up estimates are substantially lower, but all models conclude that the long-term cost of inaction now is far greater than the cost of actually doing something.

 

Instead, the House passes an energy bill that gives next-to-nothing for alternate fuel research, makes it easy for power plants to upgrade without installing modern pollution-reducing measures, protetcts companies from future lawsuits brought by people that get sick from the MTBE they made or want it out of their contaminated groundwater, AND THEN gievs those same companies $1 billion to find new business oprotunities as they get out of the MTBE business.

 

As the producers of more than half of the world's total greenhouse emissions, we bear moral and financial responsibility to the world we are disproportionately affecting. WTO is probably the only means available for our international ttrade partners to actually get us to own up to that responsibility.

[BrandoFan]

Kyoto is a mere baby step in the right direction as far as reversing global climate change.  A number of independent analyses have concluded that the cost in the near future of not ratifying the treaty will easily be more than the cost of ratifying it.  The most exhorbidant worldwide cost estimates for fixing the problems caused by human-induced climate change is more that 20 QUADRILLION dollars over 100 years.  That's something like 50 times the world GDP, and in single dollars laid end to end it would reach past Pluto.  Many other clean-up estimates are substantially lower, but all models conclude that the long-term cost of inaction now is far greater than the cost of actually doing something.

 

Instead, the House passes an energy bill that gives next-to-nothing for alternate fuel research, makes it easy for power plants to upgrade without installing modern pollution-reducing measures,  protetcts companies from future lawsuits brought by people that get sick from the MTBE they made or want it out of their contaminated groundwater, AND THEN gievs those same companies $1 billion to find new business oprotunities as they get out of the MTBE business.

 

As the producers of more than half of the world's total greenhouse emissions, we bear moral and financial responsibility to the world we are disproportionately affecting.  WTO is probably the only means available for our international ttrade partners to actually get us to own up to that responsibility.

You godless commie greenpeacenik, with your fancy facts and long-term global concerns. Your seething envy of American prosperity is transparent. Hater.

[IlliniBob72]

I would love to see the United States independent of foreign oil. If that can be done through new American oil sources, hydrogen power, solar power, or electric, fine by me. Our dependence on mideast oil will always be a thorn in America's side. I would like nothing more than to have America be able to wash our hands of the Mideast and never look back.

[BrandoFan]

I would like nothing more than to have America be able to wash our hands of the Mideast and never look back

 

I believe periodical dirty bomb explotions in DT Manhatten we are almost certain to experience in the next 10-15 years are gonna guarantee our "involvement" in that volatile part of the globe for MANY years to come.

 

Oil or not.

[southsider2k5]

I believe periodical dirty bomb explotions in DT Manhatten we are almost certain to experience in the next 10-15 years are gonna guarantee our "involvement" in that volatile part of the globe for MANY years to come.

 

Oil or not.

And if not Manhattan, Chicago or LA then.

[rafacosta]

We're losing enough jobs to these "third world" nations as it is.  Who cares though, we need to screw ourselves some more with this Kyoto madness.  That crap wont happen though so I'm not gonna spazz about it anymore.

Before you say this, check the numbers of unemployers here in Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, etc. you will think twice before saying this.

[BrandoFan]

Before you say this, check the numbers of unemployers here in Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, etc. you will think twice before saying this.

Survival of the fittest.

 

And, let's face it, y'all aren't fit for much.....save for servitude to assorted dictators and corporate vampires, and perhaps an occasional World Cup title

[BrandoFan]

And if not Manhattan, Chicago or LA then.

Chicago? Why Chicago? We didn't do nothing to nobody.

 

But I am glad (more like terrified actually) that we agree that 9/11 was just a beginning.

[southsider2k5]

Chicago? Why Chicago? We didn't do nothing to nobody. 

 

But I am glad (more like terrified actually) that we agree that 9/11 was just a beginning.

Chicago, LA, and actually Houston too are on my personal radar because of the huge oceanic shipping that they do, and the extreme vulnerability of our seaports. Security is so pathetic in the places it is discusting, and I firmly believe that this is the place terrorists can make their next big strike.

[BrandoFan]

Chicago, LA, and actually Houston too are on my personal radar because of the huge oceanic shipping that they do, and the extreme vulnerability of our seaports.  Security is so pathetic in the places it is discusting, and I firmly believe that this is the place terrorists can make their next big strike.

Chicago, LA, and actually Houston too are on my personal radar because of the huge oceanic shipping that they do, and the extreme vulnerability of our seaports. Security is so pathetic in the places it is discusting, and I firmly believe that this is the place terrorists can make their next big strike.

 

See, that's where the huge tax dollars should be going.

 

There is LITTLE point in having an extra few hundred dollars of shopping money from tax cuts if you and your family are DEAD and/or have a lot of dead friends.

 

YMMV.

[mreye]

See, that's where the huge tax dollars should be going. 

 

There is LITTLE point in having an extra few hundred dollars of shopping money from tax cuts if you and your family are DEAD and/or have a lot of dead friends.

 

YMMV.

So, because I appreciate my tax cut I'm evil and support terrorism? Give me a break!

 

In that sense, then why worry about "global climate change" if we're all going to be dead?

[FlaSoxxJim]

In that sense, then why worry about "global climate change" if we're all going to be dead?

The statement is circular reasoning. If we worry about global climate change to the point where we change our behavior to combat it, then we (or our descendants) WON'T all be dead. That's kind of the point.

 

We should also worry about it because we've really screwed up the neighborhood for all the other inhabitants -- about 10 million different species-worth according to even conservative estimates. It took 4 billion years of organic evolution to get there, and only 200 years of industrialization to imperil much of it. We do work fast.

[BrandoFan]

So, because I appreciate my tax cut I'm evil and support terrorism? Give me a break!

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

 

[rafacosta]

save for servitude to assorted dictators

Dictatorship that your country helped...

[BrandoFan]

Dictatorship that your country helped...

1. Last time I checked, my country vehemently opposed those particular dictatorial candidates.

 

2. I used green and it wasn't to salute your magnificent flag, rafa.

[rafacosta]

1.  Last time I checked, my country vehemently opposed those particular dictatorial candidates.

 

2.  I used green and it wasn't to salute your magnificent flag, rafa.

Brazil (1964): The United States helped a militar group to take control of Brazil. 1964 - 1989, it was a dictatorship that governated my country and the US didnt do anything to take away these bastards from the power.

[BrandoFan]

Brazil (1964): The United States helped a militar group to take control of Brazil. 1964 - 1989, it was a dictatorship that governated my country and the US didnt do anything to take away these bastards from the power.

You're operating from the premise that America is my country.

 

 

Also, if America itself wasn't corrupt with greed and complacency (and no such country ever existed in the history of man), what makes you think it COULD help everybody and restore the world order?

 

The common mistake is to confuse America with God.

[southsider2k5]

Before you say this, check the numbers of unemployers here in Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, etc. you will think twice before saying this.

It goes both ways Raf. For every farmer in Brazil that has lost his job to US subsidies, there is a US steelworker that has lost his job to Brazilian subsidies. When a dollar leaves the US to go to another country someone in the US ISN't getting that dollar. And last I checked Brazil is getting a whole lot more Dollars than the US is getting Brazilian Real.

[rafacosta]

It goes both ways Raf.  For every farmer in Brazil that has lost his job to US subsidies, there is a US steelworker that has lost his job to Brazilian subsidies.  When a dollar leaves the US to go to another country someone in the US ISN't getting that dollar.  And last I checked Brazil is getting a whole lot more Dollars than the US is getting Brazilian Real.

What subsidies? I f you are saying that low salaries are subsidies you are wrong, the only thing that is not good to import in here is because the exchange rate is so high (1=3,00 reais), it´s so expensive to import american goods. We import goods that have high aggregate value, we export goods like steel or orange, but those goods they are not manufactured, they have less aggregate value so it costs nothing compared to computers, etc (goods with high aggregate value). That´s the problem with the Free Trading Agreement in America (ALCA in portuguese i dont know in english), if the american government took away the import tariffs in some products we would have a good trade, why the USA Gov puts high tariffs in the brazilian orange?

 

How many brazilian goods you consum?

 

This computer that i´m writing right now is american, we dont have a brazilian computer, we have to import, so do you wanna compare the price of a computer with a orange??? And how many jobs they created directly and indirectly, i think the computer creates more jobs...

[BrandoFan]

It goes both ways Raf. For every farmer in Brazil that has lost his job to US subsidies, there is a US steelworker that has lost his job to Brazilian subsidies. When a dollar leaves the US to go to another country someone in the US ISN't getting that dollar

 

The (terribly simplified) question is, WHO needs that dollar MORE--- a starving farmer or a suburbanite with his 2 SUV's and a big screen TV.......