cwsox Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 The common mistake is to confuse America with God. I'd agree but you never think I think I agree with you and we'd go in circles again but you have been posting very wisely. Since the US (supporter of the military coup in Brazil in 1964 and yes I remember it) is the sole superpower in the world, we are akin to the position of the Roman empire. And since - contrary to the 2000 campaign promises - the current administration is going to impose its will for regime change on other nations, we will be subject to increasing acts of terror. (Note how this administration has also decided that the PLO should change its leadership - who are we to decide who should lead other people or nations? If another nation decided that our leaders must go and invaded our country or took other acts to forciably change our government, we would not be very happy...) Anyway by nature, Rome is going to be attacked by the Goths and the Visigoths. It is the way of things. Since we are Rome, s*** will happen to us. That will be especially so when this country, as it has done the last several years, unilaterally decides to break treaties (the ABM treaty), invade sovereign states, reject treaties that the vast majority of the rest of the world has approved (war crimes tribunal, Kyoto). With a culture as imposing as ours and with sole super power status, we inevitably become a target. It is just natural history. It has happened through out human history. It will continue to do so. The only way to ameliorate some of that would be to be seen as a partner with the rest of the world and not its colussus. However - again - rejecting the the war crimes tribunal, rejecting Kyoto, abdicating ABM, the refusal to go back to the UN for a second resolution - what we have done is inflamed the people who would do us harm. Is this nation one bit safer than it was on 10 September 2001? No, terrorism has increased elsewhere and it will hit here again. And we have asked for it. The greatest immorality let alone horrendous act of selfish unpatriotiusm was in the 2000 election when we should have been debating what the US should do as the sole super power, how we will live that out in a world that is fraught with danger, instead, we debated the size of one's tax cut. (My apologies, Mr. Eye, my friend, but to my way of thinking, the greed that says I want an extra $400/$600/whatever in my pocket at the cost of everything else is immoral. There is no free lunch. See George Will in the current Newsweek about now "conservatives" have betrayed all their principles. At least the Dems were honest to say "tax and spend." The concept of "cut taxes and spend, spend, spend is the selfishness of a me-generation that thinks it should have everything at no cost, and is willing to bribe its way to votes.) This nation faces serious challenges. We are not meeting any of them. We aren't even talking about them. We have people wrapping themselves in the flag and saying "I'm against terrorism" with no discussion of what we actually do as a nation to interact with the rest of the world to ensure saftey for all. All lst spring we had people mocking the UN, mocking the nations that wanted us to go back for a second resolution, saying we could do what we want and f*** france, f*** the UN, f*** this, f*** that. the rest of the world hears us and says f*** the US. And they are very human to say that when in response to our saying that. And they will say with weapons of terror just as ws we have said it with weapons of war. Jesus said, to whom much is given, from the one, much is owed. We owe it to the much we have to be sharing partners in the world rather than go it alone cowboys. But the next campaign will eb fought on greed - more tax cuts - rather than on responsibility, our role in the world, and what will ensure global harmony. f*** Kyoto. f*** ABM. f*** France. f*** the UN. f*** the war crimes tribunal. f*** it all. And then be surprised when someone says f*** US? The extra few bucks in our pocket is not buying us security. It is costing us safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 What subsidies? I f you are saying that low salaries are subsidies you are wrong, the only thing that is not good to import in here is because the exchange rate is so high (1=3,00 reais), it´s so expensive to import american goods. We import goods that have high aggregate value, we export goods like steel or orange, but those goods they are not manufactured, they have less aggregate value so it costs nothing compared to computers, etc (goods with high aggregate value). That´s the problem with the Free Trading Agreement in America (ALCA in portuguese i dont know in english), if the american government took away the import tariffs in some products we would have a good trade, why the USA Gov puts high tariffs in the brazilian orange? How many brazilian goods you consum? This computer that i´m writing right now is american, we dont have a brazilian computer, we have to import, so do you wanna compare the price of a computer with a orange??? And how many jobs they created directly and indirectly, i think the computer creates more jobs... I have first hand knowledge of the steel industry. I know people who are very high up in the unions here in one of the biggest steel producing companies in the country. The fact is that the steel industry employs 90% LESS workers than it did 25 years ago. Brazil does subsidize their steel industry, (along with many Pacific rim and Eastern Eurpean countries). That is why they were included in the steel tariffs. Also the Brazilian coffee and cocoa markets export huge amounts to the US, as do the Brazilian grain farmers. (mostly soybeans and wheat) BTW in the US the agreement is called NAFTA (north american free trade agreement) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 The (terribly simplified) question is, WHO needs that dollar MORE--- a starving farmer or a suburbanite with his 2 SUV's and a big screen TV....... I agree with you Brando. In our economy, almost everything is based on Dollars, our money (Real) has not value in the world. Every international trade in here happens in with Dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 I agree with you Brando. In our economy, almost everything is based on Dollars, our money (Real) has not value in the world. Every international trade in here happens in with Dollars. And the reasons for that are many fold. #1 The whole world wants access to the biggest group of consumers in the world (the US). You have to have dollars to do business here. #2 The US trade deficit is at about $100 billion per year. Those are dollars that are leaving the US to go somewhere else, and buying someone elses goods. #3 The US is the biggest giver of aid to the world. This goes out both as equiptment and as dollars. #4 In Brazil (and many other countries) the country hasn't been stable enough to use the Real as a "safe" currency. They have gone through huge confidence crisises in the country and that has cause wild fluxes in the value of the Real. The dollar at least lends stability for pricing sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Also the Brazilian coffee and cocoa markets export huge amounts to the US, as do the Brazilian grain farmers. (mostly soybeans and wheat) So how much cost a cocoa ? You dont even buy it, you just consum as a chocolate that is produced in your country. How much cost a computer? Coffee, see just goods that serv to the production of others goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 So how much cost a cocoa ? You dont even buy it, you just consum as a chocolate that is produced in your country. How much cost a computer? Coffee, see just goods that serv to the production of others goods. I am not going to nitpick commodities with you, but know this fact. Every year the US runs a trade deficit to Brazil, period. More money flows out of the US into Brazil than vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 We should also worry about it because we've really screwed up the neighborhood for all the other inhabitants -- about 10 million different species "What's Hecuba to him..." Substitute 'Hecuba' with "other humans and 10 million different species" and you'll have the gist of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 #2 The US trade deficit is at about $100 billion per year. Those are dollars that are leaving the US to go somewhere else, and buying someone elses goods. And your economy continue to grow 14% in a trimester... If you wanna do a free trade agreement, try to be more sincere and cut down your tariffs our goods (agriculture, heavy industry, that has almost nothing value compared to a computer, laptop). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 If you wanna do a free trade agreement, try to be more sincere and cut down your tariffs our goods (agriculture, heavy industry, that has almost nothing value compared to a computer, laptop). From the US perspective, what would the incentive be again? Charity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 From the US perspective, what would the incentive be again? Charity? Charity? Oh yeah, that is waht the US Gov wants with my country in this absurd ALCA, free trade in america and my country will get more deeper in the hole that he is in right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Charity? Oh yeah, that is waht the US Gov wants with my country in this absurd ALCA, free trade in america and my country will get more deeper in the hole that he is in right now. I am being the devil's advocate here, understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 I think the thing with the Tariffs is mostly that the EU was getting ready to impose huge tariffs on the US on a lot of other things.... the biggest trade fight since bananas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 And your economy continue to grow 14% in a trimester... If you wanna do a free trade agreement, try to be more sincere and cut down your tariffs our goods (agriculture, heavy industry, that has almost nothing value compared to a computer, laptop). You aren't getting it. The Brazilian's have been a net beneficiary of the free trade agreements. Before NAFTA Brazil had a small net trade deficit with the US. Since then Brazil now has a surplus with the US. Brazil as a country has benefited from there free trade agreements. You can point to individual markets, as well as I can to say that tariffs are hurting our respective economies. This is a narrow view, perpetuated by media only telling half of the story. Also what you aren't factoring in is the US usage of Brazilian labor that did not exsist before NAFTA. Because of the downing of trade barriers, US industry is able to hire and utilize Brazilian labor to manufacture and assemble the products that end up having American name plates. What would these people be doing for employment otherwise? And honestly if the Brazilian people really hate the American influence that much, they can do something about it. In the US it is called Dollar vote. It means not buying products from certian companies and buying them from others. Basically don't buy American products. Elect a government that refuses American grants and loans. Influence is a two way street. So many countries of the world want to have their hands out for grants and aid, but complain when the US wants a return for its money. If the things the US wants are that bad, cut off the US. Tell Bush to keep his military aid, tell Microsoft to keep its jobs, tell Congress to keeps its grants, tell the International Monetary Fund to keep it loans. Then they can also tell the US screw off when it comes to planning its policy as well. How much of the Brazilian GDP is a direct result of US money in one form or another? I would be willing to bet AT LEAST 5 %. End it. As for US growth figures, those were plain and simple the result of $100 billion in military spending increase over last year and the tax cuts moving through the economy (and your 14% is wrong, last quarter was 8.2%) If we spending that kind of money to keep the military industrial complex working at capacity, our growth figures aren't nearly that high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 From the Daily Show: "Bush is going to repeal steel tariffs due to the condemnations by world organizations like the World Trade Organization. When the hell did Bush care what the world thought?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 From the Daily Show: "Bush is going to repeal steel tariffs due to the condemnations by world organizations like the World Trade Organization. When the hell did Bush care what the world thought?" The sad thing is, for once, Bush is right about the dumping of steel on the US markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 The sad thing is, for once, Bush is right about the dumping of steel on the US markets. The steel industry in the US has been dying for years now. I remember when US Steel shut down in 81 or 82, my dad lost his job as well as many of his friends. Also, that area became very depressed and really hasn't recoved as much as hoped. In regards to that, the admin for US Steel should have been thrown in Federal Jail since they took federal money to improve their company's situation and instead took it and did nothing for US Steel, but put the $$$ into their own interests. Of course the gov did next to nothing about this out right theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 Bush has made it official. But he is calling steel states senators to try to work out something for the steel producing states. http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000869.asp?0cv=CB10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Bush has made it official. But he is calling steel states senators to try to work out something for the steel producing states. http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000869.asp?0cv=CB10 Trying to work something out so as to not lose the vote in PA and the other steel states. It'll be a tough thing to pull off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 Trying to work something out so as to not lose the vote in PA and the other steel states. It'll be a tough thing to pull off. I went to the steel rally (not voluntarily ) back in Oct. I really don't think any of those people were going to vote for Bush in the first place. Just listening to the union talk and the people who were at the rally, it was so ferverently anti-republician, I don't think Bush actually LOST many votes through this. At least not where I live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I went to the steel rally (not voluntarily ) back in Oct. I really don't think any of those people were going to vote for Bush in the first place. Just listening to the union talk and the people who were at the rally, it was so ferverently anti-republician, I don't think Bush actually LOST many votes through this. At least not where I live. Exactly. My Grandfather worked at Inland and I still get the Union Newsletter. They've already endorsed Gephardt. Even way back before this talk of repealing the tariffs. He didn't gain anything by creating them and he's not going to lose anything by repealing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Chicago? Why Chicago? We didn't do nothing to nobody. But I am glad (more like terrified actually) that we agree that 9/11 was just a beginning. All the more reason why we need a strong military, law enforcement and intelligence gathering service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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