GASHWOUND Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Well all opinions may not be equal by default, but they are still opinions so there is no way with something like music that you can prove you are right. American Idol is a good example until you consider it is still all relative. Look at music from other countries; Germany, India, Japan all have different ways of judging "good" music but they are totally different from what most people here consider "good". And even though the American Idol judges tell people they are awful, if someone thinks one of the rejects is actually a good singer then there is no way to prove them wrong. Opinions of anything whether it be music, movies, physical activities, wine-tasting, or anything else is just how much value it has to the individual. If you listen to a song and say "This really does nothing for me" and someone else says "What are you talking about, this is awesome!", there is still no way they can make you like it, and it doesn't make them right. I know what you are saying as far as logic, precision and rules etc but that still doesn't cut it when you get right down to it. Those are still just precedents set by past examples. Some music may come close to them than others, but there is still an absence of intrinsic goodness or badness. Well said......can say it about clothes..some people may consider what another individual is wearing as ugly s***...But to the individual wearing the clothing it looks great to him or her.....Same thing for art that has been used as examples through this thread...I too consider Jackson Pollock's art as ugly s*** and wouldn't even hang it above the toilet.. But the supposed professional "art critics" out there consider it materpieces...PA is such an animal...He deems himself a "professional" music critic like I say millions of people probably consider themselves ...When all it is they are doing is giving an OPINION!!! Roger Ebert may give a movie 1 star and everybody else loves it..or visa versa.. Their opinions of expertise are welcomed, but just cause Ebert says Bridges of Madison County is a great movie....doesn't mean it's true. So PA stating his opinions are more relevant than lets say me is complete nonsense....He cannot continue to tell ME or anyone on here that he knows what's good and what is not! That's the point he seems not to be able to grasp.. What sounds good to me sounds good to me..Him telling me they suck is his opinion.....Him telling me that a show I like and he doesn't cause the writing sucks is his opinion...I may find it funny, I don't care if he's a professional comedian.. Why can't he get this? TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cause he's pompous..and arrogant... nobody wants to be around a person like that..... It just comes off really bad and makes you look like a jackass..But if you want to continue to act like that...that's fine.. Most people are gonna ignore it cause most people would rather avoid confrontation in any way possible....but shape up..it's not bringing anything good to the board.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 are we talking about musical personal preference or qualified individuals opinions? I think we all agree now that opinions can differ and are good in their own right, but there has to be room for striation in qualification of opinions. my opinions about baseball may differ and but equally valid as Peter Gammons. However, the dude gets paid for speculation and analysis of a sport with millions of opinions and preferences and I don't. Clearly his knowledge and experience alone make his opinions more qualified regardless of correctness and accuracy. Professionals do what they do because they're qualified and more knowledgeable than the lay person, no matter the vehicle of his trade. Religious folk argue the concept/opinions of faith and religion, and one person's (The POPE) opinions are worth far more over another. (haha, not mine though) I'm not sure why this is so hard? erase validity and egality from the definition of qualified. One person more "knowledgeable and skilled" on a topic, by definition has a more qualified opinion. When it's not knowledge and skill we're talking about, then we're not talking about opinions anymore. Gammons gets paid to find facts as a reporter, not to say he thinks Pedro is the best pitcher of all-time or whatever. Sure, they may ask him that kind of question, and he can use all of his knowledge to make a value judgement on the greatest pitchers of all time, but there's no way he can prove it right beyond all doubt, and no way anyone can prove him wrong beyond all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Sorry to skip over the 6 pages of whatever you guys were arguing about, but as the Unofficial Soxtalk Metallica Representative, the dishonorable mention about St. Anger is ludicrious. This has nothing to do about how good or bad the album was, it has to do with Metallica selling millions and millions of album for over 20 years. They have every right to make a new album. How about the lame ass American Idol jibronies? There were probably thousands of other albums that should of never been made. Ok, I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Sorry to skip over the 6 pages of whatever you guys were arguing about, but as the Unofficial Soxtalk Metallica Representative, the dishonorable mention about St. Anger is ludicrious. This has nothing to do about how good or bad the album was, it has to do with Metallica selling millions and millions of album for over 20 years. They have every right to make a new album. How about the lame ass American Idol jibronies? There were probably thousands of other albums that should of never been made. Ok, I'm done. I'll use it a second time It's not about how many albums they made in the past, which were good, it's a list of albums that should have never been been because they suck. St. Copy and Paste is a complete pile of s***. As far as the Americal Idol thing goes at least they can make an album that doesn't sound like it was recorded through a "My First Radio" or some other childs recording machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Sorry to skip over the 6 pages of whatever you guys were arguing about, but as the Unofficial Soxtalk Metallica Representative, the dishonorable mention about St. Anger is ludicrious. This has nothing to do about how good or bad the album was, it has to do with Metallica selling millions and millions of album for over 20 years. They have every right to make a new album. Of course they do. And St Anger confirmed that they are officially DONE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Well all opinions may not be equal by default Now we're getting somewhere. I suggest those with a small person syndrom tune out. , but they are still opinions so there is no way with something like music that you can prove you are right. No, but I can expose their unevolved, arbitrary preference for what it is. I am not saying people who like Freddy Got Fingered should be gased, but I do think Godfather is objectively better. Quit looking for excuses that allow one to pass ignorance and lack of taste as sometihng good. I have no intention of "converting" or "proving" anything to anyone because 1) it's not worth the effort and 2) I like the world to be diverse, no point to liking same exact thing. Elvis and Beattles are both heavyweights, so liking one and not liking the other is perfectly fine. Kid Rock or Titney are not their equals, no matter how much they turn people on and/or inspire adrenaline rushes. Subjective? You betcha. Semantics-dependent? So what, we should stop debating because the language is flawed and we probably won't get anywhere? Yeah ok. American Idol is a good example until you consider it is still all relative. Like I said, a convenient refuge.... Look at music from other countries; Germany, India, Japan all have different ways of judging "good" music but they are totally different from what most people here consider "good". The point is that there are broad (and greatly debatable) categories: good, mediocre and bad, with the latter two making up the majority...by default almost. Countries you mentioned might prefer different styles and themes and intruments and whatnot to US, but you bet your sweet ass they also differentiate between gold and crap. And those who don't are either lazy or stupid or both. Not that there is anything's wrong with it. And even though the American Idol judges tell people they are awful, if someone thinks one of the rejects is actually a good singer then there is no way to prove them wrong. If you have no personality or imagination, if you have no rhythm, are slow and can't hit a note, you are NOT good. Ever heard most of the first round rejects on AL? Holy s***, superstahs every last one of them...lmao. Just because their mommy thinks they're the best (which is sweet until you realize part of the reason she does is because of basic human ego-- most think they s*** gold and she'll be damned if her kid ain't the best on the block....but I digress), and I can't give her a mathematical formula, a number that "proves" to her that her son is a talentless dolt doesn't mean s***. Opinions of anything whether it be music, movies, physical activities, wine-tasting, or anything else is just how much value it has to the individual Again you need to start separating subjective from the objective as daunting a task as it is, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Nobody is trying to hijack your right to like crap, but merely point out that it's crap. I like a LOT of stuff I "know" isn't top choice and am pretty unapologetic about it. But deep down, way after I turn off the boombox, I know that my preference simply doesn't pass certain tenets, criteria, a filter for originality, complexity, thematic integrity, etc. Which is ok since most stuff by default doesn't pass. If you listen to a song and say "This really does nothing for me" and someone else says "What are you talking about, this is awesome!",there is still no way they can make you like it, and it doesn't make them right. Again with the "proving" and "making someone" and "being right".....relax. I know what you are saying as far as logic, precision and rules etc but that still doesn't cut it It HAS been cutting it for centuries if not millenii. Those are still just precedents set by past examples. Some music may come close to them than others, but there is still an absence of intrinsic goodness or badness. You know, come to think of it there is no INTRISTIC goodness or badness in bat hitting the ball, either. The universe/God equally care less whether it's a 500-foot bomb or a weakass dribbler back to the mound..............Get my meaning? Again, nobody suggests art should like sports or science, but there is still a lot of room for thought, rules, standards for excellence, etc in it. I like Valentin more than Barry Bonds, but guess which one is OBJECTIVELY better. In music criteria may be different and ill-defined and almost unexplainable, but it's THERE. If you don't want to recognize it, it's your problem, not mine. Check that, it's not really a problem at all. That's what makes it great, that we don't agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 When it's not knowledge and skill we're talking about, then we're not talking about opinions anymore We can have (and archives are filled with) endless debates about what constitutes knowledge or skill.....but to deny that some are (much) more knowledeable and/or skilled than others would be stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Roger Ebert may give a movie 1 star and everybody else loves it..or visa versa.. Ebert is vanilla...but I'd say a 1000-word essay from a bright, experienced and passionately dedicated man is worth a HELLA LOT more than a completely arbitrary "that movie rocks, yo!", especially if such replic is prompted by one spraying his shorts at the mere sight of, say, Jessica Alba. "I teach hip hop down at the senna" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Gammons gets paid to find facts as a reporter, not to say he thinks Pedro is the best pitcher of all-time or whatever. Sure, they may ask him that kind of question, and he can use all of his knowledge to make a value judgement on the greatest pitchers of all time, but there's no way he can prove it right beyond all doubt, and no way anyone can prove him wrong beyond all doubt Michael Jordan is the best baller I've ever seen. All-around (including the clutch) nobody was better. Some scored more but couldn't defend, pass, rebound, steal, motivate or make a big game as well or as consistently. I an opinion, but it's as close to being a fact as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 "I teach hip hop down at the senna" That movie looks sooooooooooooooo bad. It's gonna make it's way up the imdb bottom 100 list pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 That movie looks sooooooooooooooo bad. It's gonna make it's way up the imdb bottom 100 list pretty quick No no no, it's going to be Glitter II....but even Glitter didn't have the balls to name the main character that. I am talking about "It's so bad, it's GOOD" hall of fame....I am SO there, nothing beats snarking at the screen with friends. "I teach hiphopada senna. And I spackle donuts da'nad laundrymat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 That movie looks sooooooooooooooo bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 What you actually think the movie is gonna be good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 yes and anyone who doesn't think so is clearly a racist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 No no no, it's going to be Glitter II....but even Glitter didn't have the balls to name the main character that. I am talking about "It's so bad, it's GOOD" hall of fame....I am SO there, nothing beats snarking at the screen with friends. And I spackle donuts da'nad laundrymat! I never buy the it's so bad it's good thing. I'm not gonna waste my money to see a Honey, Glitter or Gigli. Even if the movie is on TV I probably won't watch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 yes and anyone who doesn't think so is clearly a racist Oooookay you're insane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 yes and anyone who doesn't think so is clearly a racist I hate Mexicans. And Indianese. And Denmarkians. And Frenchili. Poor Messica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 why dont you just admit that you're a bigot against apples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I never buy the it's so bad it's good thing. I'm not gonna waste my money to see a Honey, Glitter or Gigli. Even if the movie is on TV I probably won't watch it. Waste of money? Heresy! I would argue that Universal Soldier 2 can rival ANY comedy special (yes, even Bill Hicks) in tems of pure, unadultared laughage. "Those are police cars!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Waste of money? Heresy! I would argue that Universal Soldier 2 can rival ANY comedy special (yes, even Bill Hicks) in tems of pure, unadultared laughage. "Those are police cars!" Meh I like Funny/Good way more then Funny/Bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Meh I like Funny/Good way more then Funny/Bad I feel sorry for you. But not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I feel sorry for you. But not really. and I you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 listen dogstain i have no time for your s***. live and let live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Brando, I appreciate your words, and I would concur on all accounts. I think it boils down to the "value" of opinions. Opinions my on some level be equal and valid in their own right, however, they are not all equally valued by others. This all started by my ego-tripping about Korn. Gash has every right to enjoy them and think they're good. I, on the other hand, would cite many things that make them a poor example of muscianship, but whatever. Some people might value my opinion more because of my background and overall knowledge and experience, or not. Gash it's a little childish to call me an "animal." By your own standards, every opinion is correct in its own right, and mine is that I'm more qualified at discussing music, then I'm still right. or do I slow it down for you?? Sooooooooo? Enjoy your reletivistic death trap, I enjoy listening to other's opinions about things that I have no clue about and hope to be able to discuss those topics without being a kid when things aren't going my way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 listen dogstain i have no time for your s***. live and let live. Rubbin' my intellectual shortcomings in my face again? Have you no shame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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