103 mph screwball Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Sox would deal Valentin, Ordonez, Buehrle for Edmonds, Rentaria, Drew from St. Louis My 2004 salary estimates: Ordonez 14 mil, Valentin 5, Berle 3.5 after arbitration? = 22.5 mil Edmonds 9 mil, Rentaria 7, Drew 4 =20 mil Edmonds scouting report Rentaria scouting report Drew's scouting report Rentaria adds a leadoff hitter with a .394 OBP last year, 34 SB and only 54K's Edmonds gives us good defensive CF with left handed power and average. Drew takes Right field with a lot of potential or we can deal him away for a relief pitcher. Deal too big? How about Buehrle and Valentin for Rentaria and Drew and 2 mil in cash? Trade Magglio to Seattle for Garcia and prospects. Trade Konerko to LA for Perez. Rentaria SS Uribe 2B Thomas DH Edmonds CF Lee LF Daubach 1B Drew/Reed/Rowand RF Crede 3B Olivo C Colon Loiaza Perez Garland Rauch/Wright I do not know how long these guys are signed for and I'm not sure were to look. I also am worried about injuries. 103 mph Screwball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Ill pass. The only way Id trade Buerhle is if we are getting Pujols. If the trade was Buerhle, Mags, Valentine for Pujols, Renteria, Morris. Id consider it. Buerhle is an underpaid number 1 pitcher, that is a rarity. Only way I would want, Edmonds, Renteria, and Drew is it came like: Edmonds, Renteria, Drew for Konerko, Maggs, and Valentine. Drew and Konerko is a wash, both have shown glimpses that they can be All-Stars. Probably St. Louis would not do this deal, but maybe. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Sox would deal Valentin, Ordonez, Buehrle The Sox can't really afford to trade pitching away at this point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 If the trade was Buerhle, Mags, Valentine for Pujols, Renteria, Morris. Id consider it. You'd consider it??? If the Cardinals were that doped up to offer that, you'd be an idiot to even think one second about it. Granted, I haven't heard any rumors of Walt Jocketty having a drug problem so this deal would never come close to being on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 I don't think St. Louis has a first baseman (Tino Martinez left). Maybe they would take Konerko and Garland instead of Buehrle. Konerko and Valentin for Rentaria? Hmm. There has to be some way that the Cardinals and Sox can help each other. Both teams do not like the Cubs. 103 mph screwball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Screwball, your thoughts are not way off base, however there are lots of reasons why this would not work. The biggest reason is that the Sox are not about to trade one of their top pitchers and get no pitching in return. Another is that Edmunds has 3 years and 34 million remaining on his contract. I'm sure there are other reasons why it couldn't work, but hey, it wasn't a half bad thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 hehe Rex, I was just saying that the value of Beurhle to the White Sox is so high right now it would have to be an insane trade for us to take it. It is not easy to find cheap left handed pitchers who win 15 games consistently. I doubt the white sox listen to any offers for Buerhle unless a Pujols type player is in the mix. The cardinals cant even trade Edmonds for perez, which means Edmonds value is almost at Konerko's. Drew's value is less than Konerko's. So we would be trading: Buerhle, Maggs, and Valentine for: 2 konerkos and a renteria. Wow that is making me excited. Probably a more reasonable effort would have been: Maggs, Buerhle, Valentine for Morris, Edmonds, Renteria. But that just seems like a trade to make a trade. In my opinion you only make trades that you feel you are winning, not just to reshuffle your team. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafacosta Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 The only way Id trade Buerhle is if we are getting Pujols. And you wake up from your dream... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Rex, I was just saying that the value of Beurhle to the White Sox is so high right now it would have to be an insane trade for us to take it. It is not easy to find cheap left handed pitchers who win 15 games consistently. I doubt the white sox listen to any offers for Buerhle unless a Pujols type player is in the mix. That's good. For I minute there I thought you might be the one with the drug problem LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 The problem is that people consistently under value our own talent, while overvaluing other teams talent. Buerhle might not be as good as Pujols, but to the White Sox Buerhle is one of our most valuable, if not the most valuable on the team. We are constrained by a $60 million bugdet. When we have a player making less than $1mil and winning 15 games, that is a very valuable player. With trades being made around salary dumps, and teams needing to cut payroll, Buerhle becomes one of the elite pitchers in the game that can be had by any team for the right trade. Most teams can not afford the Kevin Brown's of the world, but every team can afford Mark Buerhle. Therefore it is supply vs demand. The supply of cheap young left handed pitchers who have won almost 50 games in 3 years is almost nill. Prior to last season, Buerhle posted plus 15 win seasons and sub 4 eras. He made $445k last year. Colon made: 8.2mil Colon won 15 games. Buerhle won 14 games. So we paid, $7.8mil for 1 extra win. The economics of the White Sox make Buerhle almost untouchable, and therefore he could only be traded for a player that is cheap and outstanding unless the Sox were going to drastically improve payroll. Pujols has been an outstanding player his first 2 seasons, and an MVP his 3rd. Buerhle has been an outstanding player his first 2 seasons (perphaps comparably better than Pujols), and saw a decline in his 3rd. Pujols and Buerhle are both invaluable to the team they play for, and therefore both pretty much untouchable. The point of my post was that for the Sox to trade Buerhle theyd need to get a cheap young talent in return. There really are not that many cheap talents that teams are willing to part with, therefore any trade that starts with Buerhle is pretty far fetched. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 Points well taken on giving up Buerhle or taking on Edmonds contract. Can anyone think of creative ways package Valentin for Rentaria? I'd assume they'd want pitching. Rentaria is a big part of what the Sox were missing last year. Someone with speed that gets on base at the top of the order. What an improvement over Jimenez/Robbie Alomar he would be. What an improvement over Jose. We'd have to give up something good besides Valentin to get him but it would be worth it for an all star shortstop. That's the kind of move that would get me excited for next year. I can't watch another year of slow guys striking out and grounding into double plays. Seriously I can't take that again. I'd rather see the kids can play 2 than three singles to load the bases, K, GIDP. This team needs a spark. Help there has to be a way. Konerko, Rauch, Wright, Garland, Cotts? Any other ideas to spark this team? Rentaria 2003 YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS E FPCT 2003 157 587 96 194 47 1 13 100 65 54 34 7 .330 .394 .480 .874 16 .975 Valentin 2003 YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS E FPCt 2003 144 503 79 119 26 2 28 74 54 114 8 3 .237 .313 .463 .776 20 .969 103 mph screwball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Any other ideas to spark this team? Nads hooked up to a car battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moochpuppy Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I would just rather the Sox stick to the Konerko for Perez deal and then resign Colon or bring in Millwood. Rotation: Buerhle Colon/Millwood Loaiza Perez Garland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 The problem is that people consistently under value our own talent, while overvaluing other teams talent. Interesting.... I find that most Sox fans, especially on message boards, overvalue our own talent and think we can get way more for them than is really possible. In terms of your comments on Buehrle, I agree that he is and should be nearly untouchable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Rex, I agree on a whole they over value players they like. But fans are also quickly to get down on a player and want to ship them off for nothing. Look at Konerko and Koch, Most Sox message boards have fans pleading to dump them for nothing. Read the boards where people want to acquire them and most say completely different things. Most players are usually in the middle of the "he sucks" to "Hes the best", and their percieved value matters drastically based on a persons opinion. Personally, I just hope that we do not get stuck in the mindset that we have to trade just to make a splash. If we are trading for an excess for a need, that is one thing. But when you start to trade just to shake things up or cause a stir, I think you are more likely to end up with a trade you regret a year from now. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox1422 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Rentaria 2003 YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS E FPCT 2003 157 587 96 194 47 1 13 100 65 54 34 7 .330 .394 .480 .874 16 .975 Valentin 2003 YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS E FPCt 2003 144 503 79 119 26 2 28 74 54 114 8 3 .237 .313 .463 .776 20 .969 103 mph screwball I know I barely post here anymore, but does anyone else find it annoying that people have to sign their name after they post. I think we know who's posting. This format makes it very easy to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I know I barely post here anymore, but does anyone else find it annoying that people have to sign their name after they post. I think we know who's posting. This format makes it very easy to tell. You don't post here in forever and then you get snippy, go back to ESPN :finger J/K 1422, how you been man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I would just rather the Sox stick to the Konerko for Perez deal and then resign Colon or bring in Millwood. Rotation: Buerhle Colon/Millwood Loaiza Perez Garland Agreed...then if needed move Carlos Lee or Magglio for salary relief to bring in some relievers and try to unload Koch as well. Then piece together some vets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted December 4, 2003 Author Share Posted December 4, 2003 Sorry I sign my "name". I don't have fancy pictures or an automatic phrase signature at the end. I'm new at this. I suppose it is redundant. I will stop. I've been reading everyone's ideas for months and have really enjoyed the discussion. (I'm surrounded by Scrub fans in Rockford IL). I'm just trying to add to the discussion. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Sorry I sign my "name". I don't have fancy pictures or an automatic phrase signature at the end. I'm new at this. I suppose it is redundant. I will stop. I've been reading everyone's ideas for months and have really enjoyed the discussion. (I'm surrounded by Scrub fans in Rockford IL). I'm just trying to add to the discussion. Peace I'll say this u got one of the most original names out there But never do I want to see the Sox with a guy that can do that....cause all he'd do is hype us and then have his arm fall off mid pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox1422 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 You don't post here in forever and then you get snippy, go back to ESPN :finger J/K 1422, how you been man? Hey SS. How are you doing? You're in a couple of the fantasy leagues right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox1422 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Sorry I sign my "name". I don't have fancy pictures or an automatic phrase signature at the end. I'm new at this. I suppose it is redundant. I will stop. I've been reading everyone's ideas for months and have really enjoyed the discussion. (I'm surrounded by Scrub fans in Rockford IL). I'm just trying to add to the discussion. Peace Sorry about that dude, I was just a little irritated yesterday when I posted that. You'll like this board. If you need Sox fans this is where you can find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Hey SS. How are you doing? You're in a couple of the fantasy leagues right? Same old here. Yeah I am in the ESPN board league, and in Ugly's best for worst league. That one sucks anymore as all of his old buddies keep coming up with ways to try to cheat, and it is getting stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox1422 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Same old here. Yeah I am in the ESPN board league, and in Ugly's best for worst league. That one sucks anymore as all of his old buddies keep coming up with ways to try to cheat, and it is getting stupid. Yeah, I am starting to not like those Worst for Best leagues. Football got ridiculous. Even if you make the playoffs, which I was the last seed, there is no way the first or second place team doesn't win it. I think I scored around 40 points last week where the guy I play in the playoffs scored 180 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 So, we would trade our staff ace for 3 hitters? You win more games (including PLAYOFF games) with pitching, pitching, pitching. All the hitting in the world can't offset a solid pitching staff. Have we learned nothing over the last 4 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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