2004 team

[Texsox]

Let's ice this until late January. So far I haven't seen a scenario that seems plausable and good. Now that we've lost everyone of our FA let's see how JR and KW start to dance. Plan B might be more money, not less.

[Wong & Owens]

1.  You're right, Robin is the type of player who relies on eye, discipline, homework and hand-eye coordination rather than pure batspeed/strenght-- and that's part of the reason why he never became the player her was supposed to based on college dominance.....but that also should only make the aging process slower because loss of quickness shouldn't hurt him as much as others. Look at 39yo Palmeiro or 41yo Edgar, 40 Galarraga after a 3 years layoff no less, Rickey Henderson just a few years ago, Julio Franco, Gwynn, Ripken, Alou. etc. They are much older than 36yo Robin. The better question should be, does Robin want it bad enough-  at his age he has to work twice as hard just to avoid severe decline.  And frankly he seems a little too satisfied and passive, kinda like 39yo Mark Grace did in 2002 when I relaized he was done......................In any case, you're greatly exagerating his loss of batspeed-  it's not like we are talking about Royce Clayton hitter here.  As bad as Robin was in 2003, he still mustered 750 OPS playing in a very good pitcher's park.

 

2. So we should stop trying to look for ways to minimize the inherent youth risks and make peace with our fate? There is a "risk" (Burhle, Marte suddenly sucking) and then there is RISK (Crede going into one of his patented 3-30 slumps where he can't hit RHP to save his life).    I am not advocating  getting a 10yo a year replacement in Troy Glaus here........All I am saying let's get a back up like Robin who will give you good defense (great at 1b), clubhouse presence and might bust out for 800+ OPS if you avoid starting him agaionst LHP, that is..  Crede and Rowand should earn play time against righties just like Valentin and Harris should earn the right to hit against lefties.  Nothing should be be handed on a sliver platter.

 

3.  I think it's the other way around. Wriggley will be filled up NO MATTER WHAT.    While in USCF, everything depends on "names" and "team record" and "buzz"..........Getting Robin back means little if the team is losing, you're right, but if it's not it will generate EXTRA amount of fan good will around the team.  Robin should finish his career as a Sock as should Frank and a few others-  this team is starved for favorite and it's anti-player reputation needs to be changed.

 

So at JUST one million a year, I do not want to hear this bulls***.  Getting Robin costs us almost nothing (risk is low in other words) and the reward is pretty big if he does succeeed, especially if he healthy enough.

1) I completely disagree. You can do as much homework as you want, and have the greatest hand-eye coordination ever, but if your body doesn't react quickly enough when a 92 mph fastball comes from 60'6" away, all those other things don't mean anything. As the old adage goes, "the mind is willing, but the body is weak." As for those players you mentioned, I would argue that they are exceptions to the rule. How many other players have there been that lost it at 35? More than ten, for sure. As for his 750 OPS in a pitcher's park, I assume you mean Chavez Ravine? He had 109 at-bats, hardly fair to base any of his numbers on that sample size.

 

2) If you bring in Ventura to bat against righties, then how is Crede supposed to "earn" that right? My point was that you have positions on every team where there is a heavy amount of risk. If you're the Sox, why would you hedge your bets against your uber-prospect, after hearing about him for 3-4 years, after 1.33 seasons--half of which was pretty good? Why not take the chance that he will pan out, and concentrate on the other risky areas where they don't have as much going for them--2B, CF, SP, RP?

 

3) There was a "buzz" after the Sox signed Belle, the stadium was empty. There was a "buzz" when they signed Wells, the stadium stayed empty. There was a "buzz" when they signed Colon, and the stadium stayed empty(until well into July). Bringing Robin back might do some good for the org.'s image from a player's standpoint, but he'll have ZERO effect on fans' perspective if they don't win. If the Sox are 20 games out at the A-S break, and had signed Ventura, are the fans going to be thinking, "Gee, at least Robin's back so he can finish his career where he started it and had the most success?" Doubt it.

 

I'm all for welcoming him back at $1 million as a toss-in for a Perez-Konerko trade, don't get me wrong, but I am not in favor of burning so much as 1 extra calorie to do so.

[103 mph screwball]

1There was a "buzz" when they signed Wells, the stadium stayed empty.  There was a "buzz" when they signed Colon, and the stadium stayed empty(until well into July).

I think the very slow starts the Sox have gotten off to have really done a lot to kill the buzz caused by getting Wells/Colon the last two years. I agree. The Sox need to win and win early to draw fans. But I do think the Wells and Colon type big moves help generate excitement that would carry over into the season if they didn't suck so bad in April.

 

I hope Ozzie can bring the team that April intensity. JM couldn't

[BrandoFan]

1) I completely disagree. You can do as much homework as you want, and have the greatest hand-eye coordination ever, but if your body doesn't react quickly enough when a 92 mph fastball comes from 60'6" away, all those other things don't mean anything.

 

Do you know how many quick-n-strong people are out there in the real workd, working as contruction workers, garbage men, military. etc, etc, etc? Tens if not hundreds of thousand. (You seem to be greatly overstating the dificulty of hitting a 92 mph fastball. I can do it with my eryes close and I never played this game until I was almost 17.)

 

What most of them lack and what sets good major leaguers (are you contesting that Robin has been a good hitter, including 4 season before 2003 mediocrity) apart?

 

The EYE that sees the ball earlier and awesome discipline honed by decades of competition......the ability to perform under the kind of pressure where regular folks have their knees buckle just watching on TV...... tremendeous hand-eye coordination......willingness to work and adjust and study opposition on daily basis fueld by relentless ambition, pefectionism............Batspeed and natural strenght are just icing on the cake. Had Robin's bat completely slowed down, I could underdstand, but it simply wasn;t the case. It was a little slow-ER as age, nagging injuries, lack of interest and/or confidence caught up with him, but I am not about to disregard all those seasons he had before 2003. I tell you what, if Robin has ANOTHER mediocre season, then I might change my mind, but for now I still think he is capable of 790-800+ OPS against RHPs, will give you a gold glove defense at 1B and clubhouse presence

 

2) If you bring in Ventura to bat against righties, then how is Crede supposed to "earn" that right? My point was that you have positions on every team where there is a heavy amount of risk. If you're the Sox, why would you hedge your bets against your uber-prospect, after hearing about him for 3-4 years, after 1.33 seasons--half of which was pretty good? Why not take the chance that he will pan out, and concentrate on the other risky areas where they don't have as much going for them--2B, CF, SP, RP?

 

Uber-prospect? When did Joe "might be a pretty good player eventually" Crede necome Mark Prior/ich Harden? Or even Jeremy Reed? Did I miss a briefing.

 

We OWE Crede NOTHING. If he can't hit RHP in March-April, he should sit. End of story. We can't afford to miss playoffs in 2004. Simply can't.

 

3) There was a "buzz" after the Sox signed Belle, the stadium was empty. There was a "buzz" when they signed Wells, the stadium stayed empty. There was a "buzz" when they signed Colon, and the stadium stayed empty(until well into July). Bringing Robin back might do some good for the org.'s image from a player's standpoint, but he'll have ZERO effect on fans' perspective if they don't win. If the Sox are 20 games out at the A-S break, and had signed Ventura, are the fans going to be thinking, "Gee, at least Robin's back so he can finish his career where he started it and had the most success?" Doubt it.

 

 

Oh, please, there was a 15 K WALK-UP crowd the second washed up Robbie Alomar was signed-- and the team was performing s***ty in a s***ty division at that point. For a while, we averaged over 30 K after averaging UNDER 20 before we made "buzz". Belle? Never a fan favorite, but if the team was winning the fans would have showed up. Ditto Wells, another guy never popular among Chicago fans/media.

 

Robin will cost nothing (just yesterday he was making over 8 Mill) and is a an unquestionble fan favorite among the old guad that stayed awat from the park in droves. Combination of WINNING (goes without saying we need a hot start) AND fan favorites Burhle, Maggs, Lee, Thomas, Valentin, Marte, Loaiza and Ventura as big contributors? I'll be damned if it's not an extra 10K a game right there......Nothing beats low risk, good reward.

[Wong & Owens]

Do you know how many quick-n-strong people are out there in the real workd, working as contruction workers, garbage men, military. etc, etc, etc? Tens if not hundreds of thousand.  (You seem to be greatly overstating the dificulty of hitting a 92 mph fastball.  I can do it with my eryes close and I never played this game until I was almost 17.)

 

What most of them lack and what sets good major leaguers  (are you contesting that Robin has been a good hitter, including 4 season before 2003 mediocrity) apart? 

 

The EYE that sees the ball earlier and awesome discipline honed by decades of competition......the ability to perform under the kind of pressure where regular folks have their knees buckle just watching on TV...... tremendeous hand-eye coordination......willingness to work and adjust and study opposition on daily basis fueld by relentless ambition, pefectionism............Batspeed and natural strenght are just icing on the cake. Had Robin's bat completely slowed down, I could underdstand, but it simply wasn;t the case.  It was a little slow-ER as age, nagging injuries, lack of interest and/or confidence caught up with him, but I am not about to disregard all those seasons he had before 2003.  I tell you what, if Robin has ANOTHER mediocre season, then I might change my mind, but for now I still think he is capable of 790-800+ OPS against RHPs, will give you a gold glove defense at 1B and clubhouse presence

 

 

 

Uber-prospect? When did Joe "might be a pretty good player eventually" Crede necome Mark Prior/ich Harden?  Or even Jeremy Reed? Did I miss a briefing.

 

We OWE Crede NOTHING. If he can't hit RHP in March-April, he should sit.  End of story. We can't afford to miss playoffs in 2004. Simply can't.

 

 

 

 

Oh, please, there was a 15 K WALK-UP crowd the second washed up Robbie Alomar was signed-- and the team was performing s***ty in a s***ty division at that point. For a while, we averaged over 30 K after averaging UNDER 20 before we made "buzz". Belle?  Never a fan favorite, but if the team was winning the fans would have showed up. Ditto Wells, another guy never popular among Chicago fans/media.

 

Robin will cost nothing (just yesterday he was making over 8 Mill) and is a an unquestionble fan favorite among the old guad that stayed awat from the park in droves.  Combination of WINNING (goes without saying we need a hot start) AND fan favorites Burhle, Maggs, Lee, Thomas, Valentin, Marte, Loaiza and Ventura as big contributors? I'll be damned if it's not an extra 10K a game right there......Nothing beats low risk, good reward.

Do you know how many quick-n-strong people are out there in the real workd, working as contruction workers, garbage men, military. etc, etc, etc? Tens if not hundreds of thousand. (You seem to be greatly overstating the dificulty of hitting a 92 mph fastball. I can do it with my eryes close and I never played this game until I was almost 17.)

 

***Quick and strong are two very different attributes.*** And I don't understand your point that there are 10,000+ quicky/strongy folks hauling trash.*** Sure you can hit it if you know it's coming, but can you react quickly enough to it if you've got 4 possible pitches coming at you, at varying speeds?*** Also-- hitting it, and hitting it to the degree you need to to be a succesful MLB player are 2 different things as well.

 

What most of them lack and what sets good major leaguers (are you contesting that Robin has been a good hitter, including 4 season before 2003 mediocrity) apart?

 

***Ventura's highest BA since 1999 is .247. Yes, his OPS is decent, but we need him in a run-producing capacity, which he is no longer adept at.

 

I tell you what, if Robin has ANOTHER mediocre season, then I might change my mind, but for now I still think he is capable of 790-800+ OPS against RHPs, will give you a gold glove defense at 1B and clubhouse presence

 

***Again, if he's in the Perez deal, I welcome him back with open arms. But, I don't make any special moves to get him.

 

Uber-prospect? When did Joe "might be a pretty good player eventually" Crede necome Mark Prior/ich Harden? Or even Jeremy Reed? Did I miss a briefing.

 

**He wasn't a nationally hyped prospect ala Prior, but Sox fans had been hearing about him for 2-3 seasons before he got his shot. Most Sox fans I talked to were dying to see him get called up.

[BrandoFan]

***Quick and strong are two very different attributes.***

 

You missed the point: there are a TON of naturally physically gifted (either quick, or strong or both) people out there in the world. If pure natural palent was the chief reason for ML success, you wouldn't see 90% of major leaguers out there.

Only guys like Bonds, Sorioano, Sheffield, Sosa, A-Rod, etc would stay.........I am sure there were kids who were quicker, faster, stronger than Barry Bonds throughout adolescence, HS competition, etc.....but they became working joes and he became the best slugger of his generation....

 

Did Pete Sampras become what he is because of most racket speed?

Did Magic Johnson become what he is because of super quickness?

Did Wayne Gretzky?

Maybe it was Brett Farve's hand speed that set him apart from Ritchie Cunningham or Chris Chandler...

 

No, it was excellent physical tools PLUS hard work and home work......PLUS quick recogniztion and decision making.....PLUS fantastic hand-eye coordination.......PLUS developed discipline.......PLUS experience.......PLUS mental toughness that allows to thrive under knee-buckling pressure. Etc.

 

And IMO Robin Ventura did NOT have a bat slow enough to override the other aspects. It was slower of course (his 36!), but he was NEVER about pure batspeed anywway, so I am not sure he is done just yet. And those old players mentioned, all of them have other qualities in abundance that allowed them to thrive despite declined quickness. I am not saying those qualities are commonplace, not by a long shot, so of course they are exceptions!

 

In the 4 years before 2003, playing in PITCHER'S parks, Robin had a cumulative OPS of about 820, with pretty damn good RBI/atbat production for a 5-6 spot hitter especially. Even this year, as a Yankee he was driving them in just fine despite hitting 7-8th in the line-up.

 

***

Again, if he's in the Perez deal, I welcome him back with open arms. But, I don't make any special moves to get him.

 

They should have signed him out right. What an error judgement.

 

**He wasn't a nationally hyped prospect ala Prior, but Sox fans had been hearing about him for 2-3 seasons before he got his shot. Most Sox fans I talked to were dying to see him get called up

 

Ventura is not just to give Crede competiion against RHP, but also possible play some 1B. Lord knows this team could use a good defensive players cuz Konerko and Dauber sure as hell ain't.

 

Plus his popularity.

[BrandoFan]

Anyway, 2004 team....

[YASNY]

Anyway, 2004 team....

Do we HAVE to talk about that?

[BrandoFan]

Like it or not, but we NEED to get rid of TWO of Konerko/Koch/Valentin/Ordonez/Lee in order to be ABLE to breathe.

 

Othwersie, we have NO money for a true ace to battle Boston and NY in the postseason......Garland as #4 and Rauch as #5 make me uneasy.

 

No money for Soriano-type stud RH reliever to help out Marte, Wunsht, Wright and Shownweis.

 

The CF/2B platoon of Harris/Reed/Rowand/Uribe is tolerable but only to a point. Wouldn't mind seeing Cameron for under 4 Mill.

 

Olivo needs to take it up a notch offensively.

 

 

 

This team needs some dumbass GM to help us out with our problems by taking on OUR salary for a change.

[BrandoFan]

I need someone to do a player-by-player salary breakdown for the Sox so far.

 

Sullivan, Gordon, Evrett, Robbie, Colon, Tony, Dauber departing should make it somewaht easier.

[YASNY]

Like it or not, but we NEED to get rid of TWO of Konerko/Koch/Valentin/Ordonez/Lee in order to be ABLE to breathe.

 

Othwersie, we have NO money for a true ace to battle Boston and NY in the postseason......Garland as #4 and Rauch as #5 make me uneasy.

 

No money for Soriano-type stud RH reliever to help out Marte, Wunsht, Wright and Shownweis.

 

The CF/2B platoon of Harris/Reed/Rowand/Uribe is tolerable but only to a point.  Wouldn't mind seeing Cameron for under 4 Mill.

 

Olivo needs to take it up a notch offensively.

 

 

 

This team needs some dumbass GM to help us out with our problems by taking on OUR salary for a change.

Two of the Konerko/Koch/Valentin trio or Ordenez himself should ease the budget crunch. Lee is more valuable per dollar than any of the rest at this point. I'd hate to lose Carlos.

[BrandoFan]

Two of the Konerko/Koch/Valentin trio or Ordenez himself should ease the budget crunch.  Lee is more valuable per dollar than any of the rest at this point.  I'd hate to lose Carlos.

Fine.

 

1. ______ ???

2 Loaiza - 3.5 Ml

3. Mark ???

4. Galrand 2.3 M

5. Rauch 300K

 

____ ???

Marte 400 K

Wright 400K

Show 2.5 M

Diaz/Munoz 300 K

Wunsht 800 K

Koch 6 Mill

 

Uribe/Harris 300K

Rowand/Reed 300 K

Thomas 6 M

Maggs 14 M

Lee 6 M

Valentin 5 M

Crede 300K

Gload 300K

Olivo 300k

 

 

38 Mill + ace + Burhle + bench + RH closer + Konerko = ?????

[YASNY]

Fine.

 

1.  ______ ???

2  Loaiza -  3.5 Ml

3. Mark    ???

4. Galrand  2.3 M

5. Rauch    300K

 

____ ???

Marte 400 K

Wright 400K

Show 2.5 M

Diaz/Munoz 300 K

Wunsht 800 K

Koch 6 Mill

 

Uribe/Harris 300K

Rowand/Reed 300 K

Thomas 6 M

Maggs  14 M

Lee  6 M

Valentin  5 M

Crede 300K

Gload 300K

Olivo    300k

 

 

38 Mill + ace + Burhle + bench + RH closer + Konerko = ?????

What's your point? I said TWO of the trio or Magglio. His salary is about equal to any of the two other guys.... well PK plus one of the other two. And I would hate to lose Lee.

[BrandoFan]

What's your point?  I said TWO of the trio or Magglio.  His salary is about equal to any of the two other guys.... well PK plus one of the other two.  And I would hate to lose Lee.

I agree Paulie is a must. But he is not gone yet, so I am not going to discount.

 

Koch is, again, untradeavble, so I guess let's see of his velocity can be recovered.

 

Valentin won't be dealt before the season, not after half the team is gone.

 

Magglio is one of the best Sox hitters of all time. Very popular player. A legitimate 4-spot slugger. If Paulie is gone, we don't have to trade him as long as don't get in another Koch-type debacle.

 

Anyway, right now depending on who the ace is and when in the season we get him the payroll is either in mid or low 60s. Kong, be gone.

[BrandoFan]

Wouldn't mind seeing Cameron for under 4 Mill.

 

I realize how stupid this sounds, tho.

 

Mike Cameron is a 6 Mill a year/multi year player and he'll get that money else where, without having to play for the organization he probably hates.