Goddbye Robbie Alomar

[quickman]

Good Riddance Robbie.  He was over-rated in his stint here and KW's offer was more then fair.  Two mill is about exactly what I felt he was worth, although they probalby should of just given him 2 mill up front, screw deferring it.  Its just gonna mean next year and years down the road they are paying it and JR will use that deferred money as an excuse for why he can't spend it then. 

 

I'd much rather have someone with a future like Willie Harris then watch Alomar be mediocre.

This is a great board, we can all disagree and still get along. We disagree on this. 3 million is about right for robbie. Anyway, I think the whole deferral thing has to do with the Sox having the new cable outlet next year. They will have more $$$ in there pockets after this year.

[CSF]

I don't know what it is about both of Reinsdorf's teams, but whenever someone leaves, it's always on bad terms. That's a very nasty reputation these organizations are getting. With that being said, if we have to lose Robbie to gain Colon, so be it. I'll take my chances with Willie and the continued struggle of watching him hit his weight, and hold out hope that the "potential" finally comes out this year.

[Chisoxfn]

This is a great board, we can all disagree and still get along. We disagree on this. 3 million is about right for robbie. Anyway, I think the whole deferral thing has to do with the Sox having the new cable outlet next year. They will have more $$$ in there pockets after this year.

Trust me, the Sox won't spend it on payroll. The only way they spend it on payroll is if the Sox start drawing 2.5 mill plus and to do that they are gonna have to consistnetly win and go deep in the playoffs.

 

Its possible with a small payroll, but you can't be paying a few guys upwards of 50 mill cause its a team game, not a "few guy" game.

[Rex Hudler]

The mother f***er hit close to .400 in AAA.

 

Jim, I agree with you a lot, but it is time to get off the ".400 in AAA" bandwagon.......

 

He hit .380 in 28 games...... that is not a large enough sample size to use as evidence he will be a good MLB hitter.......

[BrandoFan]

your right tony, i feel sorry for kenny also. It isn't his fault he has to put a competitive team out there with such a limited amount he can spend. The problem is Jerry needs to sell this fricken team to some one that will spend some money to get us where we need to be. Kenny williams is the right man for the gm he knows how to get players here and the only prob is he has little or no money to work with. Kenny will be creative like he always has. I believe that kenny lowered his offer to alomar yesterday because I think colon will be here. Lets hope!

You gotta be KIDDING me!

 

1. There is only so much you can blame J-Arrah for. If fans don't attend and don't consume, you're crazy to think there shouldn't be a severe cap on the spending. Sports is not just any ol' business, you're right, and owners are not entitled to make a killing at the expense of fans' hopes and mental well-being. BUT, by the same token, owners should NOT have to go near bankrupt in order to MAYBE (remember there are 30 teams and only 1 wins it all) win........If the payroll was 30 and Jerry pocketted 30 Mill, then I could understand the indignation. But the payroll is at tolerable levels and Jerry is only making a

5-10 Mill profit IF that. So lay off...and go to f***ing games and buy T-shirts if you want a 70+ mill payroll. Plain and simple.

 

2. Did JR force Kenny to pay 8 Mill to Konerko instead of 4? Did he force him to trade realiable Osuna for ghastly White? How about Foulke for Koch? Pay Valentin 5 Mill instead of 3? 3.2 to Shownweiss? Is it Robbie's fault that Kenny is conning him just so he can GREATLY OVERPAY for Bartolo? Robbie may not be worth 6 Mill he'll get in abit.....but let's all remember that only 2 short f***ing years ago he was on the absolute TOP (check out his 1999-2001 production...wow) of his game. The potential of 35yo Robbie's returning to being Robbie in the kind of Indian Summer that quite a few HOF'ers have experienced before ALONE is worth 2 Mill GUARANTEED-- none of that deferred at no interest bush league s***..............And Yankees will gladly oblige once they take care of Soriano. If only to stick it to the Mets.

 

Robbie will never be a 920 OPS/35 steal/GG defense stud, but if he is healthy and confident (something I am not sure he was in NY) and totally dedicated in terms of working out.....I can totally see 800 OPS, good speed, bunting and defense.

 

Willie? It's true that I like him. It's also true he is more physically gifted than even Robbie in his prime. BUT we DON'T know if he is capable of having a 275 OBP let alone 350......hit lefties......adjust to pitchers after they adjust to him.......or if he is able to go the entire season without getting into identity crisis and 5 errors in 5 games mental funks. And as you all know you can't steal first.

[GASHWOUND]

Jeez, are we gonna sign or re-sign anyone to make this team better? I see moves going on all over....We're low-ballin everyone

How the heck does Kenny expect the Sox to compete if you don't re-sign guys like Colon and Robbie..or anyone else that is an above average ball player?

 

We got the Twinkies becoming suckier every minute now and a great opportunity to go for the division one more time next year and Kenny has his thumb up his ass...

 

What the hell is he doing to make us better? And is he gonna do anything to make us better? That's the question

What exactly is he doing to make us Sox fans excited for next year???

Absolutely nothing :fyou

[Jim Fainter]

Rex, you're right -- 28 games is too small a sample size, but it helps. I still remember last July when JM started playing Willie at second for a week or so before the Alomar swindle, and he was playing well. Then in September, he played quite a bit for the last 10 games or so and again played well. It makes the sample size bigger.

 

I saw Harris hustling his ass off, stealing bases, taking the extra base, doing the job at second. Potentially a super lead off man. Alomar, on the other hand just kept getting older, and I think stopped hustling at the end. How many balls did he hit hard? Two or three in all the time he was with us? He is a shot player, IMHO. I remember lots of weak ground balls and Robbie jogging to first.

 

Of course, I hated the trade from moment one. Same with the Everett deal, but at least Carl hits.

 

Some fans don't like Willie, because of that terrible month he had with us early. But I think that is too small a sample size, also. I'm all for giving him the job at second, giving Reed a legitimate shot at center, Uribe at short. At least we'll have a little speed.

[quickman]

You gotta be KIDDING me!

 

1.  There is only so much you can blame J-Arrah for. If fans don't attend and don't consume, you're crazy to think there shouldn't be a severe cap on the spending. Sports is not just any ol' business, you're right, and owners are not entitled to make a killing at the expense of fans' hopes and mental well-being. BUT, by the same token, owners should NOT have to go near bankrupt in order to MAYBE (remember there are 30 teams and only 1 wins it all) win........If the payroll was 30 and Jerry pocketted 30 Mill, then I could understand the indignation.  But the payroll is at tolerable levels and Jerry is only making a

5-10 Mill profit IF that. So lay off...and go to f***ing games and buy T-shirts if you want a 70+ mill payroll.  Plain and simple. 

 

2. Did JR force Kenny to pay 8 Mill to Konerko instead of 4? Did he force him to trade realiable Osuna for ghastly White? How about Foulke for Koch?  Pay Valentin 5 Mill instead of 3?  3.2 to Shownweiss?  Is it Robbie's fault that Kenny is conning him just so he can GREATLY OVERPAY for Bartolo? Robbie may not be worth 6 Mill he'll get in abit.....but let's all remember that only 2 short f***ing years ago he was on the absolute TOP (check out his 1999-2001 production...wow) of his game. The potential of 35yo Robbie's returning to being Robbie in the kind of Indian Summer that quite a few HOF'ers have experienced before ALONE is worth 2 Mill GUARANTEED....And Yankees will gladly oblige once they take care of Soriano. If only to stick it to the Mets.

 

Robbie will never be a 920 OPS/35 steal/GG defense stud, but if he is healthy and confident (something I am not sure he was in NY) and totally dedicated in terms of working out.....I can totally see 800 OPS, good speed, bunting and defense.

 

Willie?  It's true that I like him.  It's also true he is more physically gifted than even Robbie in his prime.  BUT we DON'T know if he is capable of having a 275 OBP let alone 350......hit lefties......adjust to pitchers after they adjust to him.......or if he is able to go the entire season without getting into identity crisis and 5 errors in 5 games mental funks.  And as you all know you can't steal first.

amen, but here is the thing, I have spent 28,000 on tickets in the last three years. I went into each season thinking we would win the division. We did not. I didn't care about the park, put up with the Crap about Sox fans being the poor people, but I am not happy about this one at all. I know Alomar is on the downswing but Willie Harris? In his best year this guy is omar Moreno in his worst year.

[greasywheels121]

Good Riddance Robbie.  He was over-rated in his stint here and KW's offer was more then fair.  Two mill is about exactly what I felt he was worth, although they probalby should of just given him 2 mill up front, screw deferring it.  Its just gonna mean next year and years down the road they are paying it and JR will use that deferred money as an excuse for why he can't spend it then. 

 

I'd much rather have someone with a future like Willie Harris then watch Alomar be mediocre.

This is so true. Sure Robbie started out on a decent tear his first 2 weeks in Chicago, but we really got the same Robbie that was playing for the NY Mets. Robbie's really on the decline if you ask me.

[Bighurt52235]

Did he force him to trade realiable Osuna for ghastly White?

I can tell you he didn't force him to do that, because that never happened.

[BrandoFan]

I can tell you he didn't force him to do that, because that never happened.

If course it did, Hurt:

 

Kenny gets rid of 3.40 ERA Osuna and replaces him with 6.60 ERA White Trash.

[Bighurt52235]

If course it did, Hurt:   

 

Kenny gets rid of 3.40 ERA Osuna and replaces him with 6.60 ERA White Trash.

Yes he was replaced by, but not traded for.

[SuperSteve]

Yes he was replaced by, but not traded for.

Osuna went to NYY in the deals which got us Colon.

[BrandoFan]

Yes he was replaced by, but not traded for.

Well f*** me gently with a chainsaw, it makes all the diffrence in the world!

 

My caustic take on Uncanny Conman Kenny is therefore no longer valid

[Bighurt52235]

I don't mean to make it a big deal, just wasn't sure if you were mistaken or not. I don't think it's a big deal.

[Soxfest]

Harris is NOT an everyday 2nd baseman.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I like this from Kenny. This shows me he understands the importance to Maggs on this team and the importance of Maggs to the fans.

 

Maybe this means Maggs stays (and hopefully gets resigned)

He better get resigned cause if they trade him away then there'll be a fan revolt that will make the white flag trade look like nothing.

[YASNY]

If course it did, Hurt:   

 

Kenny gets rid of 3.40 ERA Osuna and replaces him with 6.60 ERA White Trash.

Actually, I believe Osuna's replacement was Flash Gordon. He was somewhat more effective than White.

[BrandoFan]

Actually, I believe Osuna's replacement was Flash Gordon.  He was somewhat more effective than White.

See, I don't buy the above because, well, if true it would make Kenny look somewhat less caricaturishly stupid, and me-- like someone who would go out of his way to distort reality in order to make his feeble insight more pronounced.

 

And we can't have that.

 

 

 

[Molto]

Just because a guy hasn't proven himself doesn't mean he's had the chance to prove himself and is just bad, and just because a guy is given the chance to prove himself doesn't me we are going to rebuild.

 

Willie Harris playing second base is not a problem, unless the Sox make no effort to go 4-5 deep in their rotation and get another 1-2 relievers. But then it would be one of many problems if anything. If they put together a good pitching staff, Harris would be perfect because his defense at second is very good and his speed and work ethic will be a plus for this team.

 

I don't understand things some times. One minute people are complaining that we need more speed, energy, heart and defense on this team, and then when we have a guy like Harris, who has yet to have been given a real chance, we just criticize him and talk so confidently as if he's going to suck. Yet people watch Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre and feel as if those are the the greatest when Harris has similiar tools to both of them, and the capabilities to be a productive player.

 

But we don't like him because we haven't liked the way he's looked in a whole 300 at bats spread across two seasons, that makes no sense to me. The guy was a good prospect in the O's organization and batted very good for AAA last year. He can obviously play baseball, we just have to find out if it is at the major league level. And we won't until he gets a fair shot.

 

I could see if we are going to be giving chances all over, but Harris and Rowand will be the only guys in the lineup who have question marks, but it isn't because they've proven themselves to be bad major leaguers.

 

Another thing, even if Harris does struggle, I'd be surprised to see KW settle with him (remember last season?). My thinking is that he should be given a shot and see what he can do. Fact is, the Sox are not going to lose because of Harris and anybody who blames it on him will be labeled a moron by me. If we lose, it will once again be because of guys like Thomas, Konerko, Valentin, Lee and Ordonez. If we lose, it will be because our bullpen isn't deep enough and our rotation was simply too reliant on another big year by Esteban Loaiza.

 

Who knows, maybe Harris turns out to be a good player, doesn't hurt to try it out. I know everyone would be pretty sick if we gave up on him and years down the road see him being a good player on another team.

[Jim Fainter]

My thoughts exactly, Molto. I think Harris can be a solid, exciting player who will keep improving for several years. If he hits .275 he'll have a ton of stolen bases.

[SnB]

Very nice point molto

[BrandoFan]

Just because a guy hasn't proven himself doesn't mean he's had the chance to prove himself and is just bad, and just because a guy is given the chance to prove himself doesn't me we are going to rebuild

.

 

Some would say that the overwhelming majority of Willie Harris-eque utility players fail. ANYTHING can happen (and as Willie's biggest fan, I hope it does), but the ODDS (and in life it's all about odds) of a 35-year-old HOF Robbie re-dedicating himself and squeezing out another 800 OPS season or two are MUCH higher than Willie becoming a 330+ OBP starter.

 

I don't understand things some times. One minute people are complaining that we need more speed, energy, heart and defense on this team, and then when we have a guy like Harris, who has yet to have been given a real chance, we just criticize him and talk so confidently as if he's going to suck.

 

He has, what, 500 career OPS? That is NOT what people want to see in a starting lead-off hitter.

 

Yet people watch Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre and feel as if those are the the greatest when Harris has similiar tools to both of them, and the capabilities to be a productive player.

 

I think both of them are overrated for a number of reasons, but I can see why people would salivate over Castillo's 2003 OBP (390)....Call me when Willie has 290........... And, no, just because Willie doesn't start and sucks DOESN'T mean when he does start he will undergo magical transformation. He might, but he probably won't. (I hope he does).

 

But we don't like him because we haven't liked the way he's looked in a whole 300 at bats spread across two seasons, that makes no sense to me

.

 

You say it like it's 30 atbats and he is 21yo.....it's 3 HUNDRED and he is 25. Perspective much?

 

The guy was a good prospect in the O's organization and batted very good for AAA last year.

 

Yeah, he was good in AAA. But history is replete with minor leaguers hitting 340 with 50 homers and 120 RBIs and not even SNIFFING major league playing time. It's all a conspiracy, right?

 

 

Fact is, the Sox are not going to lose because of Harris and anybody who blames it on him will be labeled a moron by me. If we lose, it will once again be because of guys like Thomas, Konerko, Valentin, Lee and Ordonez. If we lose, it will be because our bullpen isn't deep enough and our rotation was simply too reliant on another big year by Esteban Loaiza.

 

It it SUCH a simplistic comment.....considering that Sox were tied with Minnesota as late as September 20, and lost a number of exruciatingly close games to them throughout the season, even the SMALLEST improvement at just 1 or 2 positions (say, 2B and C) could have EASILY changed the complexion of the race. In reality, it may very well come right down to the wire AGAIN, and having a 550 OPS second baseman can EASILY seal our fate.............Using Harris might be a necessity and I do want to see what he can do, but make no mistake about it: this experiment is hardly consequence-free and may end up burning the Sox BIG-TIME.

[Molto]

first off, stop looking at the numbers, because if numbers told the whole story, we would have won the world series this year.

 

and 300 at bats spread across TWO YEARS, not one, is not enough to see what someone can do, unless that someone wasn't ever considered a prospect or capable enough player at the big league level. Now, there also comes a point where bad play over a long period of time (sporadic play or not) makes good reason to dump a guy, but Harris has yet to reach that.

 

NOW, if Harris starts everyday over the first month or so and continues to struggle despite regular playing time, then you can come to the conclusion that Harris has wasted his chance and shouldn't be given anymore time, but he hasn't struggled yet, and until he proves he can't play at the MLB level on a regular basis, I'm not going to knock him.

 

Also, I never said Pierre and Castillo were great. Although I think both are good and that players like these will become valuable and a hot commodity in the coming years, they aren't as good as people say. But my point is that some people say Pierre and Castillo are way more talented than Harris when that isn't completely true and can't be true until Harris proves he isn't at their level.

 

Nobody really cared when we played Ordonez. Nobody cared when we traded for Konerko, or Marte, or picked up Wunsch. Nobody cared when we had Mark Buehrle start in 2001. Or when we signed Loaiza, or Gordon. If any of these guys were released in the early parts or never picked up, people wouldn't have cared, or worse yet, would have complained when these guys developed into what they have.

 

It is no different with Harris. He may be bad, he may be good, but he has the skills to be a good player and should at least be given a fair chance to prove himself.

[YASNY]

See, I don't buy the above because, well, if true it would make Kenny look somewhat less caricaturishly stupid, and me--  like someone who would go out of his way to distort reality in order to make his feeble insight more pronounced.

 

And we can't have that.

 

 

 

 

Whether you buy it or not, Osuna was used as a righ handed set up man in 2002 and Gordon was signed as the right handed set up man for 2003. No distortions there.