winninguglyin83 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Bartolo Colon Rocky Biddle Antonio Osuna Jeff Liefer Scott Sullivan Tim Hummel Robbie Alomar Royce Ring Edwin Almonte Carl Everett Anthony Webster Josh Rupe Tony Graffanino Tom Gordon Humberto Quintero D'Angelo Jimenez Just askin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Lots of draft picks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Sacrifices needed to be made last season for us to have had a chance. They were good deals, get over it and hope some of the draft picks pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 It is true the Florida Marlins won the WS with a payroll < 60mil. But it wasn't IROD that got them there or won it for them. It was a #1 pick by the name of Josh Beckett. This kid is now arguably the most dominant pitcher in MLB if he continues his late 2003 success. If the SOX continue to end in 2nd place by trying to win a WS with a < 60mil payroll & few top picks in the org, they will never catch lightning in a bottle like the Marlins. Which means their chances of winning a WS are no better than the Houston Astros. Both teams try to field a winning team each & every year with about the same payroll. Both teams groom good but not great talent that leaves when it becomes top $. The SOX can't afford a purge of talent to acquire #1 picks like the Marins did. So the only lightning in a bottle the SOX can hope for is through trades. Perhaps in that light KW is the right man for the job. In the big picture it doesn't matter whether he makes a trade that worsens the team. The goal is to win a World Series. The only way the SOX can do it is to get lucky in a trade. Colon was one of those types of trades. Coming off of a 21-8 season, there was a real possibility Colon could repeat that success and not only win the division but compete for a championship. But that didn't happen & he finished 15-13. So I will hope & pray that KW can wheel & deal again to bring us another hope like Colon. The sooner SOX fans realize the truth the better they will feel. Either we trade our way to a championship or we suck so bad we can pick our way to a championship with #1 picks. Everything in between will just keep us where we are: in the middle of the pack. Good Luck KW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Welcome back, JUGS. Marlins had a scary clutch hitter in Pudge who bailed them out numerous times against SF AND Cubs and s*** down the running game; both teams completely outplayed the Marlins and should have won in 4 and 4 games respectively. And Yankees? Both Game 1 and Game 4 should have gone to them if they convert multiple chances. Do the math. Marlins were a fluke like 2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks. You can only count on that type of result once every 10 years. It's more wise to take Marlin team for what it is: a 90 win team that got super-lucky with Redman and Lowell coming out of nowhere during the season. (If, say, Valentin and Galrand have career years in 2004, I can easily see 93-95 wins and a chance to do serious damage in the playoffs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Bartolo Colon Rocky Biddle Antonio Osuna Jeff Liefer Scott Sullivan Tim Hummel Robbie Alomar Royce Ring Edwin Almonte Carl Everett Anthony Webster Josh Rupe Tony Graffanino Tom Gordon Humberto Quintero D'Angelo Jimenez Just askin? Where's Aaron Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Hose Jon Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 How bout Dartanyon Sturtze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Welcome back, JUGS. Marlins had a scary clutch hitter in Pudge who bailed them out numerous times against SF AND Cubs and s*** down the running game; both teams completely outplayed the Marlins and should have won in 4 and 4 games respectively. And Yankees? Both Game 1 and Game 4 should have gone to them if they convert multiple chances. Do the math. Marlins were a fluke like 2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks. You can only count on that type of result once every 10 years. It's more wise to take Marlin team for what it is: a 90 win team that got super-lucky with Redman and Lowell coming out of nowhere during the season. (If, say, Valentin and Galrand have career years in 2004, I can easily see 93-95 wins and a chance to do serious damage in the playoffs) We have our off-season debate topic now. Who was more important to the Marlins winning the WS? Josh Beckett or Ivan Rodriquez? I say Josh Beckett for these reasons: 2003 DIV series: 1er/7ip 2003 NLC series: 7er/19.1ip, incl 19K, 2W, 11H, 2003 WS series: 2er/16.1ip, incl 19K, 5W, 8H Look at his PS game logs: 9/30 1er/7ip , 9K, 2H 10/7 6er/6.1ip, 5K, 2H, 1W, they beat the sCrUBS 9-8 With his team down 3-1 to the SCrUBS: 10/12 0er/9ip, 2H, 11K, 1W, CG-SO. One of the most dominating performances in NLC series history. 10/15 1er/4ip, 1H, 3K, 1W, beat the scrubs 9-6 10/21 2er/7.1ip, 3H, 10K, 3W 10/25 0er/9ip, 5H, 2W, 9K, CG-SO The Marlins won all 3 gms vs the SCrUBS when Beckett pitched. The Marlins split the gms he pitched vs NYY. The Marlins gave him ZERO run support vs SF. His 2 CG-SO performances in the last 2 series make him the most dominant player in the post-season. He was a #1 pick just like Prior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Bartolo Colon Rocky Biddle Antonio Osuna Jeff Liefer Scott Sullivan Tim Hummel Robbie Alomar Royce Ring Edwin Almonte Carl Everett Anthony Webster Josh Rupe Tony Graffanino Tom Gordon Humberto Quintero D'Angelo Jimenez Just askin? Let's breakdown your list to where it makes sense. compensation pick, Bartolo Colon = 9mil, Rocky Biddle, Antonio Osuna, Jeff Liefer A better Buerhle, & a better Garland & Colon = a Div championship. It was worth the price. Gordon was signed in the off-season, so there was no loss of talent to acquire him. Scott Sullivan, Robbie Alomar, Carl Everett are the biggest loss. We will get no picks for essentially an added boost in the 2nd 1/2. Money wise, the SOX gained more than they lost, but losing Webster could hurt them in the long run. Tony Graffanino = he elected FA. There was no loss of talent to acquire him. Humberto Quintero = who? D'Angelo Jimenez = good ridance. The 2 biggest losses in KW's wheeling & dealing last summer are Royce Ring & Anthony Webster. They were prospects that have dominant upsides. That's hard to find. In both those trades we rented a player for about 3 months. As far as Hummel, Miles, etc. given the current state of FA it's hard to say how much this hurts. These are good players but not great ones, & the jury is still out whether they can hit ML pitching over the span of 2 seasons when teams & pitchers adjust to hitters. The odds are they can't. Almonte's a loss as well, but he seemed to have digressed the last yr. So in the end, the summer of 2003 will be measured by Webster & Ring. This is the nature of the game. Dominant pitching wins championships. If you don't have that, nothing else matters. Timely hitting just keeps you in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 KW has no controll over these events, but they are woeful: Teams finishing 15th overall or worse that sign a Type A free agent owe that player's former team a sandwich pick and a second-rounder. The Sox also offered Tom Gordon salary arbitration and will receive similar compensation from New York when the free-agent relief pitcher signs a two-year contract with the Yankees. The White Sox should get New York's first-rounder next year, but that will go to the Los Angeles Dodgers as compensation for signing free-agent reliever Paul Quantrill. Since Quantrill is ranked higher than Gordon, the Sox will receive a sandwich pick and a second-rounder from the Yankees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Who was more important to the Marlins winning the WS? Josh Beckett or Ivan Rodriquez? Pudge of course, though without Beckett they probably would finish a game or 2 behind Phillies and never made playoffs in the first place, so you have a point. I say Josh Beckett for these reasons: 2003 DIV series: 1er/7ip 2003 NLC series: 7er/19.1ip, incl 19K, 2W, 11H, 2003 WS series: 2er/16.1ip, incl 19K, 5W, 8H Look at his PS game logs: 9/30 1er/7ip , 9K, 2H 10/7 6er/6.1ip, 5K, 2H, 1W, they beat the sCrUBS 9-8 With his team down 3-1 to the SCrUBS: 10/12 0er/9ip, 2H, 11K, 1W, CG-SO. One of the most dominating performances in NLC series history. 10/15 1er/4ip, 1H, 3K, 1W, beat the scrubs 9-6 10/21 2er/7.1ip, 3H, 10K, 3W 10/25 0er/9ip, 5H, 2W, 9K, CG-SO The Marlins won all 3 gms vs the SCrUBS when Beckett pitched. The Marlins split the gms he pitched vs NYY. The Marlins gave him ZERO run support vs SF. His 2 CG-SO performances in the last 2 series make him the most dominant player in the post-season. He was a #1 pick just like Prior. If you're arguing that Beckett was excellent, then I agree. Other than Lowell (without whose torrid start Marlins would have been hopelessly burried at the ASB and started to unload half the team) and Pudge, he was Marlins MVP. BUT if you're saying he was more instrumental than Pudge, you're simply wrong. Before the playoffs, Becjett having a low 3.00 ERA in in a great pitcher's park was very good, but Pudge is involved in EVERY pitch, shuts down the running game and was one of the best clutch-hitters in the majors in 2003 despite playing a in park not excactly conducive to hitting success. In any case, it's close, so you have a point. PLAYOFFS: Beckett was excellent in his SanFran start, but Pudge SINGLE-HANDEDLY won 2 games coming through with INSANELY clutch (and as I Sox fan, I've wintness our hitters fail in much less pressured situations all season long) 2-out hits and even had a great collision at home plate. If he fails in just 1 ab, Marlins probably go home. Cubs? Beckett did his BEST to lose the first game, while Pudge hit a 3-run homer to bring Marlins back to life on seemingly an unhittable Zambrano sinker (watch the replay). THEN, he comes through with a HUGE hit in later inning. It's true, that without A-Gone making two beautiful defensive stops on Sosa with winning run on 3rd, Cubs win the game anyway, but Pudge's unbelievable clutchness and effectiveness (I am not even gonna mention him shutting down pesky Lotfon who sparked every single Cub rally against Braves) allowed the game to go into extra innings where Lowell won it. Without him, Cubs win Game 1 rather handily. We know Game 2 was a blowout. In game 3, Pudge had ANOTHER clutch two-out hit to put Marlins on top in the 7th. Yes, Simon ended up hitting an even bigger shot, but Pudge did his best to win that game. Cubs win Game 3. And the Game 4 is a Cubs massacre. So, as you can see, at this point, as good as Beckett was in his one start against SF, his contribution pales in comparison to that of Pudge, without whom not Marlins get swept by CUBS (heaven help the Sox if that happened), but probably don't even make it to NLCS to being with..........Was Beckett MORE valuable than Pudge from that point on? Probably, though, again, without Pudge's 2-out RBI double off Prior, there is NO comeback in Game 6, so Becket's game 5 mastery is esspentially wasted. (I will go as far as to say that if Sox DID sqeeze in the playoffs in 2003 (and I still can;t figure out how it was possible to FAIL in that fashion that we did, in the division that we did) and had had Pudge-like clutchness from, say, Maggs with all other elements staying the same.....we could have just as easily won the World Series as Marlins did. So let's not overrated Marlins now, OK?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Can anybody name any of the stud ballplayers that the Sox have drafted/developed over the last 5-10 years? Didn't think so! The reason is, when we do draft a highly touted player, we don't (won't) spend the money to sign 'em...(see Jeff Weaver, Bobby Hill, etc.,). Where is Ruffin, Ruffcorn, Baldwin, etc., all these "can't miss" guys that ALWAYS miss! :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Everett, Sullivan, Alomar are biggest losess.........Mummel and Hiles are good players but not great ones 1. Everett brought horrible D, mediocre baserunning and only above average slugging as a Sock. His clutch numbers with us were also only marginally good. Overall, given our finanfical situations, playing him more than 5-6 Mill was unacceptable.....unless Lee is done and Carl is moved to LF. 2. Sullivan is a 33yo RELIEVER with a TON of innings in his arm, a 4.00 career ERA in offense-light NL, with no closing or even set-up experince in his life. SOlid pitcher, but he is a luxury Sox simply CAN'T pay 3+ Mill a year to. Sorry. 3. I think Robbie's near-instantenous dropoff in effectiveness (he went from HOF in his prime in 2001 to a mediocre scrub in 2002) is not due to his age and that he might partially rebound id healthy.....but the fact still remains: for 2 full seasons now, Robbie range and arm have taken a big hit; his baserunning is no longer a huge weapon and his hitting? 680 OPS and inability to hit from RH? Again, I tihnk he was worth 2 Million just to see if he can re-dedicate and revitalize himself.....but there is NOTHING in his 2002-2003 seasons that says "hard to replace". 4. Miles is no walk, no run, horrible defensive player with no big-league experience and 27-yo. Where did you find "good" in him? 5. I saw Hummel play. Can hit LHP a little, but absolutely BLOWS against RHP (75% of pitchers in other words), is SLOW and BAD defensively---I saw him play 3B against the Cubs, and he makes Crede look like a Gold Glove stud. I am talking about getting eaten up alive on "doubles" in foul territory, releasing the ball too late to start a DP, failure to field a bunt, poor positioning and of course an error leading to Cub run.....I shudder to think how bad a SS he is.......Again, no loss, not even close. Good riddance. 6. Almonte will never see majors again. 7. Biddle is personafication of MEDIOCRITY at best. Check his numbers. 8. Leifer? See #6 9. Osuna. See Sullivan, plus injury history. 10. Colon? I already said all I wanted about this overpaid bum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Can anybody name any of the stud ballplayers that the Sox have drafted/developed over the last 5-10 years? Didn't think so! The reason is, when we do draft a highly touted player, we don't (won't) spend the money to sign 'em...(see Jeff Weaver, Bobby Hill, etc.,). Where is Ruffin, Ruffcorn, Baldwin, etc., all these "can't miss" guys that ALWAYS miss! :fthecubs Mark Buerhle, Joe Crede, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Jack McDowell, Ray Durham, Kip Wells (suceeding, even if he didn't do it with us), Jeff Weaver (For a while was very good, even though we couldn't agree to a contract with him). Most came from the late 80's and early 90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 My point is that we have NOTHING to show for any of these guys, except -- laugh -- more payroll flexibililty for an owner who won't remove his wallet at gunpoint. We'll get the draft picks -- so we can draft more guys who will leave at the first opportunity. Or, like Ring and Hummel, will be traded. Tough to be too pumped these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Alvarez was acquired via trade, along with what's his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Considering all the negative PR flowing around the sox, be nice if Kenny Williams at least stepped forward and calmed the masses by suggesting he had some moves up his sleeve. Hard to see how the Sox are going to sell many tickets without making a move of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 For the record, the Sox have 37 guys on their 40-man roster listed on the team web site -- and that incluces Ryan Meaux, Ryan Wing, Mike Rivera, Ruddy Yan and Ross Gload. Cowboy up, fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Pudge of course, though without Beckett they probably would finish a game or 2 behind Phillies and never made playoffs in the first place, so you have a point. If you're arguing that Beckett was excellent, then I agree. Other than Lowell (without whose torrid start Marlins would have been hopelessly burried at the ASB and started to unload half the team) and Pudge, he was Marlins MVP. BUT if you're saying he was more instrumental than Pudge, you're simply wrong. Before the playoffs, Becjett having a low 3.00 ERA in in a great pitcher's park was very good, but Pudge is involved in EVERY pitch, shuts down the running game and was one of the best clutch-hitters in the majors in 2003 despite playing a in park not excactly conducive to hitting success. In any case, it's close, so you have a point. PLAYOFFS: Beckett was excellent in his SanFran start, but Pudge SINGLE-HANDEDLY won 2 games coming through with INSANELY clutch (and as I Sox fan, I've wintness our hitters fail in much less pressured situations all season long) 2-out hits and even had a great collision at home plate. If he fails in just 1 ab, Marlins probably go home. Cubs? Beckett did his BEST to lose the first game, while Pudge hit a 3-run homer to bring Marlins back to life on seemingly an unhittable Zambrano sinker (watch the replay). THEN, he comes through with a HUGE hit in later inning. It's true, that without A-Gone making two beautiful defensive stops on Sosa with winning run on 3rd, Cubs win the game anyway, but Pudge's unbelievable clutchness and effectiveness (I am not even gonna mention him shutting down pesky Lotfon who sparked every single Cub rally against Braves) allowed the game to go into extra innings where Lowell won it. Without him, Cubs win Game 1 rather handily. We know Game 2 was a blowout. In game 3, Pudge had ANOTHER clutch two-out hit to put Marlins on top in the 7th. Yes, Simon ended up hitting an even bigger shot, but Pudge did his best to win that game. Cubs win Game 3. And the Game 4 is a Cubs massacre. So, as you can see, at this point, as good as Beckett was in his one start against SF, his contribution pales in comparison to that of Pudge, without whom not Marlins get swept by CUBS (heaven help the Sox if that happened), but probably don't even make it to NLCS to being with..........Was Beckett MORE valuable than Pudge from that point on? Probably, though, again, without Pudge's 2-out RBI double off Prior, there is NO comeback in Game 6, so Becket's game 5 mastery is esspentially wasted. (I will go as far as to say that if Sox DID sqeeze in the playoffs in 2003 (and I still can;t figure out how it was possible to FAIL in that fashion that we did, in the division that we did) and had had Pudge-like clutchness from, say, Maggs with all other elements staying the same.....we could have just as easily won the World Series as Marlins did. So let's not overrated Marlins now, OK?) I think I'll have to agree to disagree on who was more valuable to the Marlins in the post-season. I'll certainly agree with you that I-ROD was the Marlins regular season MVP. What you've indicated in his last few games as a Marlin was more of the same he had done for the better half of the 2nd half of 2003. He was arguably the best clutch-hitter in the NL the 2nd half. But you simply can not measure raw stats in the post-season. Dominance is in a class of it's own. Yes I-ROD had some key hits in both the SF, & CHI series. But they were not low scoring hits. In other words, the ball was flying off the bat. That Zambrano hit was a thing of beauty. Probably less than 5% of MLB players would have hit that pitch as well as I-ROD did. But Zamby was showing signs of cracking, & the game got out of hand soon after. The games where Beckett dominated, there was nothing the sCrUBS or Yanks could do. That's why I consider him the Marlins post-season MVP. If the rumors are true, & the Marlins are now in the running for Vladdy then they might very well be the NL favorites to get there again. Grant it, it remains to be seen that Beckett can perform in the regular season like he did down the stretch. But if you look over the history of dominating post-season pitchers they usually continue their success. Perhaps the better question to ask is would Beckett be the Marlins franchise player? Given his age & post-season success I would say there should be no doubt. I'm still waiting for the day the SOX draft a dominator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 The Miles trade makes sense now. Graf had turned down both a 1 yr extension & arbitration offer from the SOX. He had made up his mind he wanted an opportunity to become an everyday player. KC offered him that & was willing to make a 2 yr commitment towards it. With Graff gone, KW needed a utility player that has proven to hit much better than Harris. That's exactly what he got for Miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 The Miles trade makes sense now. Graf had turned down both a 1 yr extension & arbitration offer from the SOX. He had made up his mind he wanted an opportunity to become an everyday player. KC offered him that & was willing to make a 2 yr commitment towards it. With Graff gone, KW needed a utility player that has proven to hit much better than Harris. That's exactly what he got for Miles. Plus with Graffy gone they had no one that could play shortstop other then Jose. So if Jose was injured they'd be screwed. Uribe can fill for Harris or Jose and is the best defensive middle infielder we got. Whether he can learn to hit or not, who knows, but whose to say Miles will be a productive major league player. I'll take the younger, more talented player, that plays a key position. Uribe has put up some solid numbers in the majors, especially when he broke onto the scene. I was a huge fan of that trade, simply because the ceiling is so much higher on Uribe then Miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Plus Uribe will be able to understand Ozzie better than Miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Alvarez was acquired via trade, along with what's his name. What's his name....you mean George Bell? And by the way juggernaut....I don't believe anyone has corrected you on your technicality mistake. Mark Prior was NOT the #1 overall draft pick in 2001, Joe Mauer was. Mark Prior was the #2 draft pick overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 What's his name....you mean George Bell? And by the way juggernaut....I don't believe anyone has corrected you on your technicality mistake. Mark Prior was NOT the #1 overall draft pick in 2001, Joe Mauer was. Mark Prior was the #2 draft pick overall. Dude, that in itself is a technicality. The Twinks good not afford Prior with thier first pick, so they took Mauer instead. A dumb move on their part & SOX fans are thankful for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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