sox-r-us Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 When the Indians were a power house, JR did everything to try and win the division Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro etc etc Now, when the division is up for grabs to the point that we could win it by A/S break, he makes no effort to get us to win it I just do not get it Must be the attendance that I pointed in the other thread....the attendance was very good in the 90s....at least until 94 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 So what move have they made or not made to this point that you would have done differently? Offered Colon more money? Offered Gordon a two year deal and more money? Offered Sullivan arbitration and taken the chance he would have accepted it? I can't say I disagree with anything they have done so far. Their offers have been fair. All it would take is for Reinsdorf to raise payroll to $75 million, then offer Colon and Gordon more money, sign them and watch them break down or not perform. Then we could have a whole team of contracts like Koch's. Wouldn't that be a great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 When the Indians were a power house, JR did everything to try and win the division Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro etc etc Now, when the division is up for grabs to the point that we could win it by A/S break, he makes no effort to get us to win it I just do not get it Must be the attendance that I pointed in the other thread....the attendance was very good in the 90s....at least until 94 Well picking up bums like that didn't help then, why would they help now. It's not all about signing the big huge f***ing contracts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would have added Hawkins....his deal was not that bad...we could have offered him 3 years 14 mill guaranteed Colon wanted a 4th year added to his contract. We should have done that.....why are we so scared of sure things? He is not Jamie Navarro and no, he will not get injured just because Wells did How ridiculous is it? We are willing to give 3 years 36 mill but cannot give one more year at 12 mill because we are scared of him getting injured (see KW's quote).....where is the logic in that? Isn't the risk equally high with the 3 year 36 mill? And the same thing for Robbie Alomar....why not 2 years for 5 mill? Why low ball him with 1 year at 2 mill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would have added Hawkins....his deal was not that bad...we could have offered him 3 years 14 mill guaranteed Colon wanted a 4th year added to his contract. We should have done that.....why are we so scared of sure things? He is not Jamie Navarro and no, he will not get injured just because Wells did How ridiculous is it? We are willing to give 3 years 36 mill but cannot give one more year at 12 mill because we are scared of him getting injured (see KW's quote).....where is the logic in that? Isn't the risk equally high with the 3 year 36 mill? And the same thing for Robbie Alomar....why not 2 years for 5 mill? Why low ball him with 1 year at 2 mill? Nothing is a sure thing in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I agree with you Rex. In all honesty I didn't want Alomar back, I didn't want Gordon back at his price and a multi year deal and well, nothing you can do when the Angels go out and make a flat out impressive offer for Colon. The only thing I will disagree with is how some quality relievers have been signed that could help the Sox, but at the same time there are other guys out there. Things could be a lot worse. Now if at the end of December the Sox are still sitting here things could be different, but as of now there are still plenty of ways to build the Sox into a championship caliber team. Will they, who knows, but right now, I'm not going to stress it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would have added Hawkins....his deal was not that bad...we could have offered him 3 years 14 mill guaranteed Colon wanted a 4th year added to his contract. We should have done that.....why are we so scared of sure things? He is not Jamie Navarro and no, he will not get injured just because Wells did How ridiculous is it? We are willing to give 3 years 36 mill but cannot give one more year at 12 mill because we are scared of him getting injured (see KW's quote).....where is the logic in that? Isn't the risk equally high with the 3 year 36 mill? And the same thing for Robbie Alomar....why not 2 years for 5 mill? Why low ball him with 1 year at 2 mill? Paying Hawkins almost $5 million a year would have been stupid with our payroll. Colon's offer was more than fair. If the Angels want to extend themselves even farther then so be it. I thought what we offered Colon was borderline high. And yes, adding another year is committing another $12 million. If he breaks down in year one of that contract or he went 12-13 next year, everyone would be crowing about how bad his contract he has and how stupid KW was for offering it. Colon was offered the richest contract ever for a White Sox pitcher. Could we have used him? Sure..... But were the Sox sleeping for not matching Anaheim's offer? I don't think so.... Giving Alomar a two year contract would be another very risky move. The guy is getting up there and his talents are in decline. He cannot hit left-handed pitchers. Granted, I liked the effect he had on the Sox and like how he does the little things well, but in two years he could be just another Graffy, a part-time player. KW thought he had a deal and it fell through. Just because a player does not accept a deal or decides to look for a better one doesn't mean the Sox messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 The only thing I will disagree with is how some quality relievers have been signed that could help the Sox, but at the same time there are other guys out there. Jason, I agree with you that it would be nice to have signed some of the guys who have recently been locked up, but who is to say that KW didn't make offers? Who is to say that a player may not have taken even a lower offer with another team? There are still guys out there that can help, so there is no need to panic. People need to understand that just because ESPN or the newpapers don't mention the Sox, doesn't mean they haven't had conversations with a player's agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 Paying Hawkins almost $5 million a year would have been stupid with our payroll. Colon's offer was more than fair. If the Angels want to extend themselves even farther then so be it. I thought what we offered Colon was borderline high. And yes, adding another year is committing another $12 million. If he breaks down in year one of that contract or he went 12-13 next year, everyone would be crowing about how bad his contract he has and how stupid KW was for offering it. Colon was offered the richest contract ever for a White Sox pitcher. Could we have used him? Sure..... But were the Sox sleeping for not matching Anaheim's offer? I don't think so.... Giving Alomar a two year contract would be another very risky move. The guy is getting up there and his talents are in decline. He cannot hit left-handed pitchers. Granted, I liked the effect he had on the Sox and like how he does the little things well, but in two years he could be just another Graffy, a part-time player. KW thought he had a deal and it fell through. Just because a player does not accept a deal or decides to look for a better one doesn't mean the Sox messed up. But that is my exact point about Hawkins, Rex...why should our payroll be only 60 mill when the division is there for the taking? Why should a very good reliever at 5 mill a year be an issue when it almost guranatees us to the playoffs. We used to spend a lot more when we had no chance with the freaking Indians... As for Colon again, if he breaks down in year one or goes 12-13, how much difference would a 3yr/36 mill vs 4 yr/48 mill make? Colon's agent said he wanted more years than just 3 .....why not give him 4 If we thought he was worth 12 mill a year, then 3yrs 36 is SAME as 4 yrs 48 mill The only diff between the two is if he gets injured .... so my point is we would be f***ed if he was injured independent of 3 vs 4 years....not to mention the fact that the upside to getting him was a huge chance at everything next year Again, there is no logic to it. The only way our position makes sense is if we are convinced he cannot last beyond 3 years....but he is not that old and has not had injury issues. His leg strength is awesome and will stay that way The Sox did mess this up....Colon went for the same f***ing money we were offering per year because of our f***ed up conservatism at assuming he might turn out the next Jamie Navarro between year 3 and 4 We had the first shot at negotiating with him and he should not have hit the market after what he did last year for us....with any decent batting in the first half, he would have won 20 games easily again. His effect will be eflt when we see our bull pen get raped next year as exposed as it will be I bet Marte becomes mediocre next year having to pitch almost 1 and a half times more from that pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Jason, I agree with you that it would be nice to have signed some of the guys who have recently been locked up, but who is to say that KW didn't make offers? Who is to say that a player may not have taken even a lower offer with another team? There are still guys out there that can help, so there is no need to panic. People need to understand that just because ESPN or the newpapers don't mention the Sox, doesn't mean they haven't had conversations with a player's agent. Agreed; Jeff Nelson, Arthur Rhodes, Armando Benitez, Al Levine, Jose Jimenez, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighHeat45 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 You heard it hear first: The Tigers will win the AL Central next year, book it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Agreed; Jeff Nelson, Arthur Rhodes, Armando Benitez, Al Levine, Jose Jimenez, etc. Nelson and Benitez tend to hurt more than they help. Mets fans still b**** and moan about Benitez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Nelson and Benitez tend to hurt more than they help. Mets fans still b**** and moan about Benitez. Before anyone gets on my ass about Benitez and Nelson having great careers, I will clarify that in the above post I was referring to last season. Last season, both Benitez and Nelson looked terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 But that is my exact point about Hawkins, Rex...why should our payroll be only 60 mill when the division is there for the taking? Why should a very good reliever at 5 mill a year be an issue when it almost guranatees us to the playoffs. We used to spend a lot more when we had no chance with the freaking Indians... As for Colon again, if he breaks down in year one or goes 12-13, how much difference would a 3yr/36 mill vs 4 yr/48 mill make? Colon's agent said he wanted more years than just 3 .....why not give him 4 If we thought he was worth 12 mill a year, then 3yrs 36 is SAME as 4 yrs 48 mill The only diff between the two is if he gets injured .... so my point is we would be f***ed if he was injured independent of 3 vs 4 years....not to mention the fact that the upside to getting him was a huge chance at everything next year Again, there is no logic to it. The only way our position makes sense is if we are convinced he cannot last beyond 3 years....but he is not that old and has not had injury issues. His leg strength is awesome and will stay that way The Sox did mess this up....Colon went for the same f***ing money we were offering per year because of our f***ed up conservatism at assuming he might turn out the next Jamie Navarro between year 3 and 4 We had the first shot at negotiating with him and he should not have hit the market after what he did last year for us....with any decent batting in the first half, he would have won 20 games easily again. His effect will be eflt when we see our bull pen get raped next year as exposed as it will be I bet Marte becomes mediocre next year having to pitch almost 1 and a half times more from that pen Paying Hawkins $5 million a year would guarantee us a berth in the playoffs?? Get real. We got Billy Koch last year, paid him well and he did s***. Colon pitched well for us, but wasn't as dominant as we would have hoped. I disagree with you completely on Colon and the difference between 3 and 4 years, and we will have to leave it at that. There comes a point where you have to say this is what we are offering and this is what we think is fair. If someone else offers more, you let them go and don't look back. If money is always the issue, you run the risk of becoming the Orioles real fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 You heard it hear first: The Tigers will win the AL Central next year, book it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 There is no way in hell I'd offer Colon a 4 year $12.5 or whatever per year contract. The forth year of the contract you have a rich lazy 35 year old fat man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 So what move have they made or not made to this point that you would have done differently? Offered Colon more money? Offered Gordon a two year deal and more money? Offered Sullivan arbitration and taken the chance he would have accepted it? I can't say I disagree with anything they have done so far. Their offers have been fair. All it would take is for Reinsdorf to raise payroll to $75 million, then offer Colon and Gordon more money, sign them and watch them break down or not perform. Then we could have a whole team of contracts like Koch's. Wouldn't that be a great idea! Hard to say Rex, but we are talking about an institutional problem here not a current state of affairs. I can go back to '01 when we didn't pursue Mussina but instead went with the one yr and bust commit to D. Wells. That in turn led to the cheaper is better bust of Wells and Fogg for Ritchie. The Foulke for Koch trade was all about money as is the fact we are going to arb with Burly. Then there's the Maggs contract, the epitamy of play today and pay tommorrow, now that tommorrow is here does JR suck it up and pay or do we get the cry poor and inevitable salary dump of our best player. This even leads into stupid money tricks like picking up a Jose option instead of pursuing Tejada. Then there's the slow bleed on the minor league system as everything has to be a trade of rent-a-players instead of FA signings. There's more I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment including the cheap manager syndrome but I hope you get the point. No our current state of affairs is exactly what will happen from time to time the way JR goes about his business, sometimes you get stuck in the numbers movements and then you either suck it up for a yr or cry poor and restart the cycle all over again. And which one are we going to do? You got it, let the cycle begin again!!! One more trend in JR's business plan I'd like to point out, that's the once every 10 yrs when enough of the cheap homegrown pitching and players converge to make a competitive team, '83, '93, '03.......and our next winning window of opportunity in 2013!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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