greasywheels121 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I hope all this is true....I'm starting to like the rumors I'm hearing this week.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 who said Ponson was offered more money than 3yr $18 mil? who said Ponson is actually worth more than that? 3yr $18 mil is what Ponson is looking for and that is really what he's worth. Will he get more? perhaps, I'm sure some team could very well go out and offer $7-8 mil a season, but I don't see it going anywhere higher than that. I didn't SAY he was "worth" 7.5-8+ Mill a year. I said based on everying we've seen (Batista signing being the exception) so far, including the rejected offer from Blatimore, his market value is in the 3 year/23-25 Mill range. It's one thing to see a kid Burhle get 3/18 in his FIRST year of eligibility, signing with a team to which he OWES his career (he is like a millionth round pick).........Ponson uprooting himself and settling in on the South Side for that money? I don't see, but weirder things have happened, so I guess I could be wrong on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 There is a worn down pitchers market this year and a guy with a better ERA, miguel Batista only is making 3.5 million. Just the market I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Ponson mentioned at www.whitesox.com Looks like Ponson may make a decision by the end of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 103mph, Batista is 1. An exception. I could and have countered him with Millwood, Colon, Escobar, Pettite and even Burhle. 2. Wanted to play for one of best hitting teams in the majors for run support. Braves didn't want him, nerther did the Yankees and Red Sox....Texas is cutting payroill and has a launching pad for a park that inflates ERA..... 3. Batista is a 4.40 career ERA pitcher; in AL that equels to 4.70+. 4. He is older. 5. Ponson is a NAME pitcher who was on everybody mind in the last 5 months, like Colon IMAGE/POPULARITY would get a mill or two more just because of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighHeat45 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 6. He is a knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 7. I shall kill you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyKongerko Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Imagine the rotation we could have put together if we actually kept some free agents: 1 Bartolo Colon 2 Sidney Ponson 3 David Wells 4, 5 Some useless skinny guys Why the sheer size of our starting pitching staff would make us the most feared team in the league. I can't believe we let two of these guys get away!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 103mph, Batista is 1. An exception. I could and have countered him with Millwood, Colon, Escobar, Pettite and even Burhle. 2. Wanted to play for one of best hitting teams in the majors for run support. Braves didn't want him, nerther did the Yankees and Red Sox....Texas is cutting payroill and has a launching pad for a park that inflates ERA..... 3. Batista is a 4.40 career ERA pitcher; in AL that equels to 4.70+. 4. He is older. 5. Ponson is a NAME pitcher who was on everybody mind in the last 5 months, like Colon IMAGE/POPULARITY would get a mill or two more just because of that. Right now Millwood hasn't gotten jack, so I wouldn't exactly use him as a counter. And if you counter Escobar, you could make a point for him being a similar pitcher to Escobar. Of course thats in arbitration, the Sox don't have to deal with that, so I do think its a fair offer. I expect him to go for about 3 yr 21 mill and wouldn't be shocked if he got 8 mill per, but at 6 mill per, it would be within a reasonable range and would be a great signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighHeat45 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 That page also shows that Ponsons salary was 2 billion 650 million bucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Yeah, 3/21 Mill sounds about right....if you're Baltimore. If you're Sox, make it 3 year/25. Millwood didn't get squat? He was making TEN MILLION last year and Scott Boras was clearly saving up his clout to get his client REAL money this offseason..... And Ponson had a better year in AL than Millwood in NL in 2003...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Whats Millwood gotten this year? Last year he got 10 mill, but that isn't this year. This year Boras can talk out of his ass all he wants, but Millwood will probably get like 8 mill a year, unless he goes to arbitration. Also, Batista is arguably as good of a pitcher as Colon (career number wise) and he took a lot less. I know you don't want to look at it, but somehow it has to fit into things. Heck, Suppan didn't get huge bucks either and Ponson has had one good year. I think he could maybe get more, but realistically he's 5 mill a year, he could get 7, if some team is desperate 8 (Not many teams seem to fit this situation) and if he does want to come to Chicago, I could see him going from 7 to 6. I don't know if he does or doesn't, but 3 yr 18 mill is more then fair. Could it be that he turned down the 3 yr 21 rumored by the Orioles because it wasn't straight up or because he doesn't want to pitch there or maybe it wasn't reported correct? I don't know, but its a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Did I mention an older Bartolo Colon getting nearly THIRTEEN year/4 years? Ponson was better in 2003, in much tougher division....and has been almost as good his entire career. Kalvin Escobar is a DEFINITION of mediocrity and he got 6.25 Mill a year., for crying out loud..... If Ponson is signed to 3/18, Sox should consider themselves pretty lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Did I mention an older Bartolo Colon getting nearly THIRTEEN year/4 years? Ponson was better in 2003, in much tougher division....and has been almost as good his entire career. Kalvin Escobar is a DEFINITION of mediocrity and he got 6.25 Mill a year., for crying out loud..... If Ponson is signed to 3/18, Sox should consider themselves pretty lucky. I won't disagree that 3 yr 18 would be good, considering, but ridiculous, no. As far as Colon your right, those were ridiculous numbers to pay and the same with Escobar. The only solice to Escobar is you could say him and Ponson are similar pitchers athough Escobar doesn't have much starting experience or as much as Ponson. But don't say Ponson's numbers in his career are as good as Colon's, that wouldn't be fair to Colon. Ponson was solid in years past, but nothing more then a 4th on a good team. This year he stepped it up, but it still very unproven and with health questionmarks (only he and doctors know if they are true or not) it could of sent his stock down a bit. Plus most teams wanting pitchers now have got them, so the next crop will kind of sit a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Also, Batista is arguably as good of a pitcher as Colon (career number wise) and he took a lot less. I know you don't want to look at it, but somehow it has to fit into things. Jas, far be from me to argue FOR Sox overpaying a pitcher-- nobody argued more that Boras is an ass and that Colon, Pettite and Millwood are NOT 12+ Mill a year pitchers. This time, however, I tihnk Ponson will not bite, and I wouldn't blame him. Knowoing the Sox, I'd even doubt if 3/18 is upfront and not deferred into the next decade with Ponson paying the Sox interest rate instead....lol Batista has a career ERA of 4.40 in NL which is the definition of "average pitcher". He is not as young as Ponson either. Not as a big a name/not as popular. Finally, with signing bonus, Batista is making, what, 4.5 Mill a year. That is about right.....and things that are "right" are a rarity in professional sports- most of the time players and their agents dictate the terms. Batista is not the norm, and Suppan I think he could maybe get more, but realistically he's 5 mill a year, he could get 7, if some team is desperate 8 (Not many teams seem to fit this situation) and if he does want to come to Chicago, I could see him going from 7 to 6. I don't know if he does or doesn't, but 3 yr 18 mill is more then fair. FIVE mill a year, Ponson? Regardless what I think of Ponsono as a pitcher (as a Sox fan, I am programmed to look down on overpayed players, but that is just that- a bias that fans of prosperous teams don't have to share), I have to disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 You know the funniest part? I don't even WANT Ponson as a Sox. I want Kevin Brown or Curt Shilling or Tim Hudson (obviously at a prorated cost if we get them close to ASB and/or throw in prospects so other teams will pick up some salary) to help Loaza and Burhle lead the Sox to WS. We're splitting hairs. 3/18, 3/21 who cares about the Fatass, Jr. Now lets talk abotu the RH reliever we desperately need... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I'm saying 5 mill a year is probably what he'd get if people didn't over-pay. It be pretty cheap though. I do agree with most everything your saying though. Except I am not a big Brown or Schilling fan at this stage. Hudson, Zito or Mulder now that I'd take, but we ain't gonna get it. I'll settle for adding two starters like Ponson/Garcia/Perez/Washburn and two relievers, plus dealing Koch. Basically, what I want to do with the Dodgers and Devil Rays (Scott Williamson thread). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Except I am not a big Brown or Schilling fan at this stage. Hudson, Zito or Mulder now that I'd take, but we ain't gonna get it. After 86 years of mostly futility, I always think in terms of World Series. Not disrespect to Washburn or Ponson, but I want a pitcher capable of shutting people down twice in a 5-game series, and 3 times in 7-game....a legit ace, and I believe Shilling and Brown STILL got it. Having them around in April-July is not something the Sox can afford, but the pennant race in the 2nd half and the playoffs? Hell yeah. Some salary needs to be dumped for sure. Otherwise, KC is gonna kick our ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Does Maddux still got it...at 5 mill a year the Sox could possibly add him. He may not be great, but come playoff time, you got to like his chances to step up. He still had the best groundball/flyball ratio in the majors. And I should add that I think a team with 5 very good starters and a great bullpen and solid position players could definately win the series. The Yanks are still beatable...thats right, they are There are very decent chances that Brown and Gordon get hurt and don't help them come playoff time and a lot of other older guys are iffy on that team, like Bernie Williams and all his injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Does Maddux still got it...at 5 mill a year the Sox could possibly add him Maddux may not be what Shilling or Brown (still) is, but in our s***ty-hitting division (vomit) he might post Bartolo Colon 2003 numbers or better. The thing with Maddux is SALARY (5 Mill you say versus 13 for Colon) and INTANGIBLES: -The guy can teach Garland, Rauch, Wright and Cotts more in his sleep than Bartolo ever could. -The guy is a CHICAGO legend. Not only will he bring extra fans ot USCF, but among them there will be quite a few Cub hopefuls. Again, at 5 Mill, I'll take him in a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Maddux may not be what Shilling or Brown (still) is, but in our s***ty-hitting division (vomit) he might post Bartolo Colon 2003 numbers or better. The thing with Maddux is SALARY (5 Mill you say versus 13 for Colon) and INTANGIBLES: -The guy can teach Garland, Rauch, Wright and Cotts more in his sleep than Bartolo ever could. -The guy is a CHICAGO legend. Not only will he bring extra fans ot USCF, but among them there will be quite a few Cub hopefuls. Again, at 5 Mill, I'll take him in a second. I would too..of course right now, he's still asking for 10 mill, but most people have speculated his price will fall to 5 mill or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 OK then, what about Maddux at $7.5 mill? I took the number Jas threw out there and the number Boras has out there of $10 mill a year and I just got the average....pretty simple. Do you do it or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I would too..of course right now, he's still asking for 10 mill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 OK then, what about Maddux at $7.5 mill? I took the number Jas threw out there and the number Boras has out there of $10 mill a year and I just got the average....pretty simple. Do you do it or not? Not if you can get Ponson at 6. I think 7.5 is just too much. At 6 mill over a year, it defiantely be interesting or 2 yrs at 10 mill...anything more then that and I think its a risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 We won't debate this issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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