Is this article true or false?

[Pastime]

BY LAWRENCE ROCCA - Star-Ledger Staff

 

Guillen sure to be a pain for 'Big Hurt' - Sunday, December 14, 2003

 

NEW ORLEANS -- White Sox slugger Frank Thomas hates his new manager and former teammate Ozzie Guillen so much that he has asked GM Kenny Williams to trade him, something Guillen would also like to see as part of the sweeping changes he has recommended to the team's management.

 

Guillen, hired by Chicago after helping the Marlins win the World Series as their third-base coach, has told Williams he should try to get rid of Thomas, Paul Konerko, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee because he wants more athletic, faster players who are more adept at getting on base. Basically the kind of players who propelled the Marlins this past year.

 

Guillen also wants to alter the White Sox's clubhouse culture and he believes removing the perpetually grousing Thomas would go a long way toward doing that. When they were teammates, Guillen regularly clashed with Thomas and Guillen has made no secret of his plan to ride The Big Hurt every day if necessary in order to get him to play hard.

 

The Dodgers need a first baseman and GM Dan Evans seems obsessed with players from the White Sox, his former employer, and has been talking to Williams about trading a pitcher for one of those hitters, but Thomas might be too expensive. Thomas will make a relatively modest $6 million next season but holds player options for each of the next two years worth a total of $18 million.

 

The Dodgers are going to use starter Odalis Perez as a trade chip to get a hitter and have dangled reliever Guillermo Mota to everyone they've talked to, so it's conceivable they could package Perez and Mota to get Ordonez. Several teams are after Mota, who was pursued all over the field and then in the clubhouse by Mike Piazza during a bench-clearing brawl in spring training.

 

---- Lawrence Rocca

[Pastime]

No manager, no matter how power-hungry, drunk, or insane, would want to get rid of a team's 4 best hitters.

 

I truly have to doubt any credibility that this writer has. I can understand Ozzie wanting to get rid of Frank, but the other guys? This has to be the biggest pile of feces I've read in months.

[YASNY]

Just the statement in there saying they have been "dangling Mota" should raise a BIG red flag bulls*** alert.

[Pastime]

I know that as a society, we love "dirt" and "juicy stuff" to just rile up the masses, but can't any columnist have even the slightest sliver of integrity? I truly think that this guy just wanted to stir the pot.

 

When I read a column that has no sources or quotes, I tend to just want to wipe my ass with it.

[YASNY]

I know that as a society, we love "dirt" and "juicy stuff" to just rile up the masses, but can't any columnist have even the slightest sliver of integrity?  I truly think that this guy just wanted to stir the pot. 

 

When I read a column that has no sources or quotes, I tend to just want to wipe my ass with it.

This topic came up over the weekend, and everybody blew it off as BS then. I don't know if this was the article that was referred to at that time, but it sure sounds like it. But the Mota remark is pure garbage, as he is the deal breaker in a Magglio deal, to this point.

[Pastime]

I'm overloaded with Sox stuff every day as it is, so I can't even remember all the potential trades. However, if the Dodgers are balking at trading Mota and Perez for Maggs, they can go jump in a lake with cement shoes on. Perez is a mediocre starter with a big mouth, and Mota has had ONE good season. Maggs would immediately improve their lineup, and possibly give them enough scoring to win some of those 1-0, 2-1, and 3-2 losses, especially with Shawn Green's nagging injuries now in the rear-view mirror.

 

I keep hearing about how good their farm system is (supposedly), so they should be able to replace Mota and Perez a hell of a lot easier than we can replace a perennial .300, 30 HR, 110 RBI, 46 doubles, high OPS player like Maggs. I just hope this isn't another stupid attempt by Dan Evans to "stick it" to the Sox because of his still-festering bitterness. If it is, then piss on him. He'll probably be fired after this season anyways, and I'm surprised he wasn't s***canned already. He's made some really questionable moves at times in L.A., and he's certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Queen Prawn]

I hope this isn't true, but somehow, it wouldn't surprise me if it was. If it is true, we could be in for a long summer...

[cwsox]

I hope this isn't true, but somehow, it wouldn't surprise me if it was.  If it is true, we could be in for a long summer...

I feel the exact same way

 

hiring Ozzie as manager may be the worst thing we have done since hiring Hawk as GM

[Texsox]

What Ozzie said isn't far off from some comments said here last summer. We were overloaded with big slow power hitters and no one was getting on base. I think we could break up those 4 and improve the team. Dumping all four wouldn't and shouldn't happen, but any two or three would be fine, if we received comparable value.

 

It seems like when players and managers leave they all take pot shots at Frank. Maybe a change in scenery would be a good thing for everyone concerened.

[BrandoFan]

Getting rid of BOTH Magglio AND Frank????

 

Why stop there, why not deal Loaiza, Marte and Burhle? I am sure Crede and Carlos Lee will find takers.

 

Better yet, how about we MOVE White Sox to Nevada and get it over with, whadayasay?

[israel4ever]

Ozzie was a bad, but typical Reinsdorf hire. He has never (with the exception of Scott Skiles) hired a coach/manager with professional coaching/managing experience. Two reasons for this are, 1) He doesn't want to have to pay for experienced "leadership"; and 2) He wants "puppets" running his teams. (That's why he NEVER lets them pick their own coaching staffs!)

 

Cito Gaston would have never stood for JR's bulls***, that's why he's not managing here!

 

[Texsox]

Getting rid of BOTH Magglio AND Frank????

 

Why stop there, why not deal Loaiza, Marte and Burhle? I am sure Crede and Carlos Lee will find takers.

 

Better yet, how about we MOVE White Sox to Nevada and get it over with, whadayasay?

How about Maggs OR Frank? It all depends on who we get in return. If we traded Maggs for Bonds and Frank for Halladay would anyone b****? I know it's not going to happen, but using an extreme example to show that it is possible for both to be gone and the team looking better.

[cwsox]

Ozzie was a bad, but typical Reinsdorf hire. He has never (with the exception of Scott Skiles) hired a coach/manager with professional coaching/managing experience. Two reasons for this are, 1) He doesn't want to have to pay for experienced "leadership"; and 2) He wants "puppets" running his teams. (That's why he NEVER lets them pick their own coaching staffs!)

 

Cito Gaston would have never stood for JR's bulls***, that's why he's not managing here!

 

I tend to totally agree with this post...

[BrandoFan]

How about Maggs OR Frank? It all depends on who we get in return. If we traded Maggs for Bonds and Frank for Halladay would anyone b****?

 

No what will end up happening is Magglio being traded for a mediocre Odalis Perez and a future bust pf a prospect.....while Frank and Valentin is traded for a couple of utility infielders. Saving money....losing too much production and incurring fans' and media's great wrath and ridicule.

 

Frank looked GREAT last year and Magglio will rebound. You wanna get Soriano? Fine. Huff? Sure. Fullmer if we deal Konerko beforehand? Ok. Hell, I'll take Evrett making 3 Mill in 2004 at this point for Maggs......Perez? No.

[Chisoxfn]

Would everyone die if Magglio and Frank were dealt? I don't have a problem with whose dealt as long as they get value for the guys and it makes the club better off.

 

Frank played a lot better last season, but constantly there has been blathering that Frank is just an ass in the clubhouse. I have no idea if its true, I'm not in the clubhouse, but if a team is willing to give up in the Dodgers case (Maybe they don't want Maggs or don't want to quite pay that price...try to get Perez and Jackson) and then deal Maggs to the Red Sox or Mariners along with Jose and get Wynn/Garcia/Soriano/ or Naggette/Guillen.

 

Would anyone here have a problem with getting: Soriano or Naggotte (300K), Edwin Jackson (300K), Randy Wynn (3.5 mill), Carlos Guillen (2.5 mill), Freddy Garcia (8 mill - high estimate), and Odalis Perez (6 mill - high estimate) for Frank Thomas (6.5 mill), Magglio Ordonez (14 mill), and Jose Valentin (5 mill).

 

Overall the Sox give up 25.5 million worth of contracts and take on (21 million). They also have their rotation filled, have a young stud reliever/starter in Soriano, have a stud prospect ready to come up if anything happens in Jackson as well as their shortstop and cf (leadoff position filled). They would need to find someone to replace Maggs and Frank's production, but now Juan Gone enters the picture as a DH type candidate (or go after Aubry Huff).

 

Randy Wynn

Carlos Guillen

Carlos Lee

DH (JUAN GONE/Palmerio)

RF - Rowand/Reed/Borchard (Potentially Audry Huff or another FA signing)

Paul Konerko (Would bat higher if the Sox went with Rowand/Reed/Borchard)

Joe Crede

Miguel Olivo

Willie Harris

 

Rotation

Elo

Buehrle

Garcia

Perez

Garland

 

Bullpen

Marte

Koch (Weathers)

Soriano

Wright (Williamson)

Grilli

Wunsch/FA

(Williamson/FA)

 

The Sox still have options people, I can come up with more then a few scenarios pending different things that could work out. I'm assuming Kenny cna do the same, but its much easier said, then done.

 

All I'm saying is if Kenny had the balls to move Maggs and Frank (It would take some serious cohonies to do it) you could do it and put together one hell of a team and you'd have some stud prospects as well.

[israel4ever]

Guys!

 

You act as if these players' salaries are coming out of your pockets...they're NOT!

 

Reinsdorf can afford to sign ANY free agents, he just doesn't want to spend money! Stop playing into this "fiscal responsibilty" bulls***; what about being responsible/accountable to your fans???

[Chisoxfn]

Guys!

 

You act as if these players' salaries are coming out of your pockets...they're NOT!

 

Reinsdorf can afford to sign ANY free agents, he just doesn't want to spend money! Stop playing into this "fiscal responsibilty" bulls***; what about being responsible/accountable to your fans???

Still...at the same time, if the Sox are going to set a payroll, then the trades have to fit into that so called payroll limit.

 

And with a smaller payroll, they have to be fiscally smart in where they spend there money.

[israel4ever]

I agree!

 

I don't have a problem with that, and if you saw my post from yesterday, where I said the Sox should "rebuild", you'd see where I'm coming from.

 

However, I am insulted as a Sox fan when JR and KW imply that it's the Sox fans' fault that they can't be more active in the free agent market.

 

Total BS!

 

[Chisoxfn]

I agree!

 

I don't have a problem with that, and if you saw my post from yesterday, where I said the Sox should "rebuild", you'd see where I'm coming from.

 

However, I am insulted as a Sox fan when JR and KW imply that it's the Sox fans' fault that they can't be more active in the free agent market.

 

Total BS!

 

I completely agree, although I remember KW saying, he didn't want to talk about the attendance limitations anymore.

 

He just said he would do the best with the budget he was handed to him. After that it was out of his control.

 

It was something along those lines. I agree, it isn't his job to worry and blame the fans for lower attendance, that just alienates them more. He should do his job and put a kick ass team on the field (well the best one you can) at the set budget and get it to compete, make the playoffs, and with winning and showing the right attitude towards fans, bringing the fans back.

 

It ain't easy, but I firmly believe it could be done...and it could start this year (Well technically last June/July when the Sox made all those moves that really gave Sox fans that extra spark and the belief for the first time in a long time that the team had a shot to go all the way and that management was trying its best with the resources it had been given by JR).

 

I don't want to rebuild unless the Sox are just gonna sit there and stay mediocre. This team can be developed into a big time winner, I just hope KW sees that and can make the right moves and JR allows him to spend around 60 mill and if the Sox are looking really good come midseason, let KW add a few mill, so they don't have to give up a lot of prospects to get guys.

[BrandoFan]

At this point JR has to choose to be AGGRESSIVE, using the super-weak division and stadium renovation-led momentum and putting EXTRA dough (even if it means going into red a little) into the team. 75 Mill pauroll may be out of the question, but what about 65-68? How much better will the team be?

 

OR he could go his usual route (and I wouldn't expect anything less from J-Arrah) and find every EXCUSE in the book NOT to spend, thus further putting the Sox a perilous situation of having to win with medium talent or they risk losing even MORE fans who are tired of the BS and will have even LESS cash flow which will in turn force JR to drop the 2005 even lower....Vicous cycle.

 

Frank Thomas is the GREATEST Sox player of all time. This franchise is fighting for fans. He is only making 6 Mill (compared to 20 for Manny, 18 for Delgado, 17 for Sosa, etc). If he AND Maggs are traded for anything but first rate talent (and who will give that to Kenny, lol?), we're f***ed and deservedly so.

[Harry Chappas]

My question is why does KW profess what his payroll is? This just adds fuel to the fire that is fan negativity. I think KW does a great job of not over-hyping our prospets so when they get traded there isn't a s*** storm in the media. Nobody is crying for Webster, Rupe or Royce Ring in media, they are here though, because we understand our prospects. KW does a great job of staying in control and not driving a deal through the media, where other teams can guage it and try jumping in.

 

A close to home example is the fact that Bobby Hill and Hee Soop Choi are no longer with the cub. Going into Spring Training last year these two were the next Evers and Chance. Sure they got Derek Lee and Aramis Ramirez but these guys are not saviors and they both are very expensive. They are providing the cub with what Choi and Hill were suppossed to but it is costing them $14M instead of $1M.

[cwsox]

Guys!

 

You act as if these players' salaries are coming out of your pockets...they're NOT!

 

Reinsdorf can afford to sign ANY free agents, he just doesn't want to spend money! Stop playing into this "fiscal responsibilty" bulls***; what about being responsible/accountable to your fans???

it does not come out of our pockets but to talk of someone else spending millions out of their pocket --- well, it is always fun to spend other peoples money but it is also a tad bit irresponsible to say someone else should spend millions upon millions - especially as a wise person here once said in the post of the year that many of us b**** about having to buy a half-price seat and be expected to sit in it as opposed to be able to sit in any seat we want which we did not pay for -

 

The Sox are not the Bush White House which spends billions upon billions and runs massive deficits and takes a who cares attitude - it is a business - I have my guesses that the Sox could spend more but I don't really know the numbers - I have seen the Sox spend before and they may well do it again -

 

a prevailing attitude on these boards is people wanting the Sox to do something now, now, now -

 

in the era of instant gratification I suppose that is to be expected but while I want the Sox to make moves, I want them to be the right moves, not just any moves so it appears as if something is happening.

 

And I don't need to be blasted about being overly kind to JR or KW - I was the one at SoxFest last year who made the comments to KW and Rick Hahn about MB's contract and I may tackl;e somne other issue this year when every one else is being nicey nicey - I think Rick Hahn is staring at me still in anger for what I said -

 

we can rush into another Ritchie deal or another Lofton deal or Clayton deal -- I'd just as soon KW do something but do the right thing and if KW has shown us anything, if is that he always does something -

 

it will happen

[BrandoFan]

a prevailing attitude on these boards is people wanting the Sox to do something now, now, now -

 

I think the prevailing attitude is no longer wanting to see White Sox be a laghing stock of AL. Devil Rays are bound to win the world series before us if only by law of probability.

 

I have been Sox fans' harshest critic, almost justifying JR's two-faced, penny-pinching ways......But where do you say 'enough!'? JR's cheapness has led TWO seasons of pathetic failure in a pathetic division- if he only kept Foulke and shelled out more money for a FA pitcher instead of getting Ritchie (we keep Wells naturally), things would have been different...... Do you want the Sox repeat that in 2004 and 2005 (and all this "bargain-hunting" produces Rick Whites, Daubachs, Ritchies, Claytons and Armando Rioses MUCH more frequently than it does Esteban Loaizas) and then find themselves faced with a re-built Indians team and/or re-aligned ALC in 2006/07? I don't. Mediocrity is not tolerated.

 

Business? Sure. Ther is such a thing called "prudence" and "vision" which JR sorely lacks......When Sox finish 10 game back of Royals (and dealing Thomas, Maggs to fit in Ponson and Perez will help accomplish just that) in 2004 and draw 1.4 Mill fans in 2004-2005, leading Chairman to slash payroll to 40 Mill.....I'll get back to you.

 

Spend 10 extra Mill NOW....you will make 20 extra Mill tomorrow. Don't spend, you'll LOSE 10 Mill tomorrow. It's JR's choice.

 

(and, no, I don't absolve Sox fans of their loyal-less ways. just looking at the bigger picture)

[cwsox]

brandofan, I am not going to disagree with you either - that is why I was so p.o.ed at KW and Hahn last SoxFest - it is not simplistic one way or the other, you know that but I am not sure everyone does -I'd love to have good news now too - but maybe nothing that could be done now would be good news - I wish I felt more comfortable with what KW does, I suspect we all feel that way - oh for the days when Rollie Hemond was in charge. At least I trusted him.

[Rex Hudler]

Spend 10 extra Mill NOW....you will make 20 extra Mill tomorrow. Don't spend, you'll LOSE 10 Mill tomorrow. It's JR's choice.

 

You mean if I spend the $10 million I have in my pocket, I will double my money tomorrow? Sonofab****, I never realized that was the secret to financial management. Thanks for the enlightenment.