Dick Allen Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Or cause the whole deal to blow up and force the Red Sox to deal with another team than the Sox, leaving the Sox holding their johnsons. I would agree with you, but it is Magglio Ordonez we are talking about. It would be hard for Boston to find a player like him available anywhere else. Besides, if you are going to trade him, you owe it to your organization and fan base to get the best deal that's out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 To bad that this isnt a video game. How often does a team trade for someone, then trade them away. BUT, I love all of those moves. I cant imagine if Nomar came here, It whould be unbeleivable. I can give you two quick examples off the top of my head from just last year. As mentioned before, we received El Duque from New York, and then immediately shipped him off to Montreal(where he STILL has yet to throw a pitch), and also, the Marlins acquired Mike Hampton from Colorado and then shipped him off to Atlanta for Tim Spooneybarger. And in the past similar things have happened. Mike Piazza was traded from LA to Florida during like the 1998 season I believe, and then shipped off to New York. I would have to venture to guess that that deal was solely to acquire him to then move him right after that and get more value(which they did....I know they acquired AJ Burnett in that deal, and probably others too who I'm just not thinking of right now). (As a sidenote, I have a pretty rare card or had a pretty rare card somewhere in my collection....a Mike Piazza card with a Florida Marlins uniform on....it was pretty cool). So it happens, just not all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Its not trading for someone and trading away immediately I'm not sure about. I don't know if you can sign a free agent and trade him away immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 What about our frontline pitcher though? If we trade Maggs and prospects for Nomar and Damon (and assume Nomar signs extension), and then trade pick/prospects for Everett to Expos, and Valentin for Guillen, our lineup would be awesome with: Damon (CF), Lee (LF), Nomar (SS), Frank (DH), Everett (RF), Konerko (1B), Crede (3B), Guillen (2B), Sandy/Olivo © We would still not have a frontline pitcher though...to go with Buerhle, E-lo and Garland If we could only unload Koerko then for some pitching to the Dodgers (Perez) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 If we are indeed dealing Magglio, I'm all for getting Boston to bid against the Dodgers, Yankees and anybody else eager to spend money. Still say our Number One problem will be replacing the quality innings delivered by Bartolo last season. He might not have won as many games as we would have liked, but he was certainly capable of giving the bullpen some needed down time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toasty Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 im still crossing my fingers about ponson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iguana Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 lets see... send valentin to seattle for guillen, send ordonez and prospects to boston for williamson, nomar, and damon, send damon and konerko to LA for perez/mota ? damn, i'd cream my pants if that happened. lol but this is the Sox we are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toasty Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 .... wonder if texas might want valentin if they give up arod ... send valentin and konerko to texas(they need 1b), send ordonez and munoz to boston, get nomar and damon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 .... wonder if texas might want valentin if they give up arod ... send valentin and konerko to texas(they need 1b), send ordonez and munoz to boston, get nomar and damon Actually they don't need a 1Bman. Not only do they have Teixieria still there from last year, but also Brad Fullmer. Also sox-r-us, you said this: What about our frontline pitcher though? If we trade Maggs and prospects for Nomar and Damon (and assume Nomar signs extension), and then trade pick/prospects for Everett to Expos, and Valentin for Guillen, our lineup would be awesome with: Damon (CF), Lee (LF), Nomar (SS), Frank (DH), Everett (RF), Konerko (1B), Crede (3B), Guillen (2B), Sandy/Olivo © We would still not have a frontline pitcher though...to go with Buerhle, E-lo and Garland If we could only unload Koerko then for some pitching to the Dodgers (Perez) I'd have to imagine we would not keep Damon. He's making something like $6-8 mill this year, and Nomar is making like $12-15 mill....you add any of those numbers up that you want, and it does not work out in the Sox favor. I would assume that one of Damon or Garicaparra would be dealt, if not both. See, that's where I get lost. I don't see why the White Sox would get both Damon and Garciaparra and then deal them both immediately after we receive them. I've seen one player go from one team to the next team to the next team, but never two. That just seems a little weird to me. I would have to imagine that if the ARod for Manny deal goes through, that LA initially has the edge, but that if/after Garciaparra is dealt to LA, we can still work a deal out. If he is dealt to Anaheim, that is even better news for us, because then LA and probably Boston are in need of an OFer, and what better team for that then us. But somehow, and this is me assuming and just flat out guessing, we could get Garciaparra or Perez, Mota, and a good prospect or two, and maybe even Izturis? I'm still not quite understanding this. I mean, if they only have two OFers, Damon and Nixon, I can understand why they would want Maggs, but if they have 3 and I'm forgetting someone, why the hell would they need Maggs in the first place? To replace Manny's bat or what? How is LA not the only team that would want Maggs? Something is just not clicking in my attic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 saw this on wsi, cant decide what to think I talked to my Boston source briefly who happens to be very busy these days. As I pressed him for info, he said "Why are you going to put this on a message board?" I never posted before a couple weeks ago because I usually only get fringe Red Sox information which isn't important to most. He knows that I am a Wsox & Nomar fan, so I am getting more info than usual. I asked him why the WSox haven't been linked to any rumors involving Nomar and he said that KW and the WSox organization do a good job of keeping quiet. He also said that Boston is trying to keep the pursuit of Magglio quiet because they don't want the Yankees upping an offer for Ordonez and the only leaking of Nomar trade discussions came from the Dodger organization. Don't forget that I was one of the first to state that Manny for Arod would happen. Here is what is happening: 1. The Manny/Arod deal will happen. Boston may need to overpay for Arod because of the Nomar fiasco. The Dodgers or the White Sox could be a third team involved in this trade. 2. They will trade Nomar and receiving Maggs in return is their first choice; however, due to circumstances KW has a lot of work to do to consumate a trade. 3. KW could trade Magglio and some prospects for Nomar and Johnny Damon today, but he is unwilling to take on additional salary. He is trying to be creative in ways to dump salary (Konerko) to make this deal happen. Boston will move Damon's contract if they get Arod. The addition of Jose Valentin to Boston and a pitching prospect to Texas could get this done. 4. Peter Angelos & Keith Foulke have made things very difficult for KW. Baltimore's signing of Tejada has inflated Nomar's price. KW initially wanted to sign Nomar to a contract extension before making a trade. Nomar's new price could prevent this trade from happening. Foulke's signing with Boston eliminated Koch as an option for the Red Sox and they do not want Konerko. 5. Boston is hoping that the rivalry between KW and Dan Evans drives up the price for Nomar. 6. Most interesting of all is that my source thinks that the Sox may have agreed on a minor leaguer to trade to the Expos for Carl Everett if this all goes down. I will keep posting as I hear info. All People at WSI know how to do is BULLs***! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmookie Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 johnny damon and nomar! heck yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WISH IT WERE TRUE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 This would be great, but usually the rumors from WSI unfortunately should be typed in green.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 That Rumor is Sooo Bulls*** and some here are so Gullable to belive it. Everett can't be traded until June 16th, stated by MLB Rules. So tell that Dick head to get another Source to Bulls***. That's why I say far away From WSI! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 That Rumor is Sooo Bulls*** and some here are so Gullable to belive it. Everett can't be traded until June 16th, stated by MLB Rules. So tell that Dick head to get another Source to Bulls***. That's why I say far away From WSI! Now now Josh, easy on the venom (beer)! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 johnny damon and nomar! heck yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21 Mill dollars worth of salary we can't pay right there......heck yaaaaa!!!!!! indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Now now Josh, easy on the venom (beer)! LOL No one has seen me on real Venom Yet (Whiskey) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 21 Mill dollars worth of salary we can't pay right there......heck yaaaaa!!!!!! indeed. Sure we can. Valentine and Maggs together are about that price. We do improve offensively (slightly defensively) but arent cutting payroll. By not creating any flexibility to pay for added relievers of possible starters (Ponson would be the only SP we would acquire outside of a trade) we are left to trade more players. Thats why the Maggs/Perez,Moto,Etc. deal is so vital to this team. We effectively elimante two of our needs....balancing the bullpen and filling the role of a starter. Bouncing off this trade Sox could deal Valentine for Garcia; thus completing our 04 rotation. Whatever money is left (if any) could be used to pay for a non tendered reliever or a utility player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 So you're saying that if we would get Nomar and Damon are defense onyl improves sligthly?? HUH!!!!! LOL Nomar is a Better SS than Valentin and Damon is than what we got in center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 So you're saying that if we would get Nomar and Damon are defense onyl improves sligthly?? HUH!!!!! LOL Nomar is a Better SS than Valentin and Damon is than what we got in center Alright, our defense is dramatically improved. I honestly am not familiar with Damons abilities in CF. I made the assumption that Willie and Damon were about par defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Hell no!! Willie is a Better Secondbaseman than he is Center Fielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Sure we can. Valentine and Maggs together are about that price. We do improve offensively (slightly defensively) but arent cutting payroll. By not creating any flexibility to pay for added relievers of possible starters (Ponson would be the only SP we would acquire outside of a trade) we are left to trade more players. Thats why the Maggs/Perez,Moto,Etc. deal is so vital to this team. We effectively elimante two of our needs....balancing the bullpen and filling the role of a starter. Bouncing off this trade Sox could deal Valentine for Garcia; thus completing our 04 rotation. Whatever money is left (if any) could be used to pay for a non tendered reliever or a utility player. 1. Garciappara + Damon = 2 Mill more more than Valentin + Maggs. Both are sgined beyond 2004, too, no? 2. You don't improve offensively if Valentin hits LHP from left side which by all indication he will (his 780 OPS includes 400 OPS from RH- he could bunt for higher from LH) be forced to if he wants to start. Magglio is every bit as good as Nomar offensively and Valentin- Damon (whatever advantage Jose has in the last 3-year OPS Damon offsets by having more steals). Defensively, it's an upgrade I agree but not a big one by any means.....Why are we arguing about this non-trade which doesn't benefit us any again? 3. Perez and Moto are grossely and somewhat overrated respectively away from Ravine. If you think you're getting Zito and Soriano in those two yahoos, you're in for a not-so-pleasant surprise. If it's salary dump, you are saving about 8 Mill on deal fater Perez goes through arbitraion, but again you're getting inferior talent and are giving away one of the most popular Sox players in recent memory, albeit one coming off an unspectacular year. 4. Valentin for Garcia is doable, sure. Both have upsides and both can be pretty damn mediocre. The problem is, Valentin just turned 34 and may have 2-3 years left in him tops. Are Mariners THAT desperate tro give up a talented pitcher? 5. Who told you Ponson is coming? He he'll want 7-8 Mill a year, so that effectively takes care of Maggs trade savings. Meanwhile you're gonna have Carlos Lee as your clean-up guy and Joe Crede as your #6. With Everett, Ordonez and Alomar gone, and Frank a year older, you're gonna have a BAD (Sox were ranked 8th or 9th in AL WITH them lasy year) offensive team with an average pullpen and good (not great) starting pitching. Unless Garcia and Burhle rediscover their former glory, that is an 75-78 win team. Third place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 1. Garciappara + Damon = 2 Mill more more than Valentin + Maggs. Both are sgined beyond 2004, too, no? 2. You don't improve offensively if Valentin hits LHP from left side which by all indication he will (his 780 OPS includes 400 OPS from RH- he could bunt for higher from LH) be forced to if he wants to start. Magglio is every bit as good as Nomar offensively and Valentin- Damon (whatever advantage Jose has in the last 3-year OPS Damon offsets by having more steals). Defensively, it's an upgrade I agree but not a big one by any means.....Why are we arguing about this non-trade which doesn't benefit us any again? 3. Perez and Moto are grossely and somewhat overrated respectively away from Ravine. If you think you're getting Zito and Soriano in those two yahoos, you're in for a not-so-pleasant surprise. If it's salary dump, you are saving about 8 Mill on deal fater Perez goes through arbitraion, but again you're getting inferior talent and are giving away one of the most popular Sox players in recent memory, albeit one coming off an unspectacular year. 4. Valentin for Garcia is doable, sure. Both have upsides and both can be pretty damn mediocre. The problem is, Valentin just turned 34 and may have 2-3 years left in him tops. Are Mariners THAT desperate tro give up a talented pitcher? 5. Who told you Ponson is coming? He he'll want 7-8 Mill a year, so that effectively takes care of Maggs trade savings. Meanwhile you're gonna have Carlos Lee as your clean-up guy and Joe Crede as your #6. With Everett, Ordonez and Alomar gone, and Frank a year older, you're gonna have a BAD (Sox were ranked 8th or 9th in AL WITH them lasy year) offensive team with an average pullpen and good (not great) starting pitching. Unless Garcia and Burhle rediscover their former glory, that is an 75-78 win team. Third place. 1) You forget that we don't have a CF and if you consider Rowand even a half way decent defensive CF I think you are kidding yourself. Magglio is a lolly gagger and half asses it a lot of times defensively and is a terrible baserunner. Nomar is a SS so you can't compare him defensively to an OF, however he is superb in that area. Plus he is a 2 time batting champ at a scarce position. That position is worth 12 million a year, RF is not worth 14. Not even Vlad will get that. This trade would benifit us a lot as J. Reed is much better defensively in RF and Damon is better than anyone we can throw out there at the moment in CF. Our up the middle defense would be awesome with Olivio, Garciaparra, Harris, and Damon. Not even close to average as you claim. You are actually only taking on half a million more in salary. Garciaparra =$11.5 million , Damon = 8 million, Valentin = 5 million, and Magglio 14 million. Only Damon is signed after this year. You are also getting younger as well. Garciaparra =30, Damon = 30, Magglio = 29, and Valentin 34. Anyway you look at it it is a great deal. 2) Valentin will never stop switch hitting. He said this much last year when he was being asked about it from reporters. Offensively we are getting a leadoff hitter in Damon which we don't have and replacing Maggs in the middle with a 2 time batting champ. I think we are upgrading a lot! Both can also do the little things you ask of them and add speed to the team. 3) Mota is awesome and would be a closer for many teams. Who cares about Perez. If he comes through he comes through. However, he is a lefty and lefties are tough to come by. Ask the Cubbies about that. I believe Estes is still around for that reason alone. I also think if you get Perez you will either not trade for Garcia or not sign Ponson. I think they want Ponson and Garcia and do not want Perez. I would be shocked if we received Perez without the idea of trading him shortly after. 4) I believe the Mariners are desperate for power in thier lineup. They tried to trade Guillen for Vizquel earlier today. I see no reason why the Mariners wouldnt trade Garcia here for Valentin. Mariners want to rid themselves of his contract. Valentin supplies them with power, helps them fill a need at SS and they will rid themselves or Garcia's contract. 5) Ponson is believed to have be asking for 3 for 18 million. That is only 6 million per. I believe we can afford that. If you think that defense/offense and starting staff cant win a depleted AL Central then I think you are sorely mistaken. I think you are also foregetting Scott Williamson coming here from Boston. Our bullpen would be really nice if this all works out correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 It will probably take 3 years at $21-$24 million to sign Ponson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 1) You forget that we don't have a CF and if you consider Rowand even a half way decent defensive CF I think you are kidding yourself. Magglio is a lolly gagger and half asses it a lot of times defensively and is a terrible baserunner. Nomar is a SS so you can't compare him defensively to an OF, however he is superb in that area. Plus he is a 2 time batting champ at a scarce position. That position is worth 12 million a year, RF is not worth 14. Not even Vlad will get that. This trade would benifit us a lot as J. Reed is much better defensively in RF and Damon is better than anyone we can throw out there at the moment in CF. Our up the middle defense would be awesome with Olivio, Garciaparra, Harris, and Damon. Not even close to average as you claim. You are actually only taking on half a million more in salary. Garciaparra =$11.5 million , Damon = 8 million, Valentin = 5 million, and Magglio 14 million. Only Damon is signed after this year. You are also getting younger as well. Garciaparra =30, Damon = 30, Magglio = 29, and Valentin 34. Anyway you look at it it is a great deal. 2) Valentin will never stop switch hitting. He said this much last year when he was being asked about it from reporters. Offensively we are getting a leadoff hitter in Damon which we don't have and replacing Maggs in the middle with a 2 time batting champ. I think we are upgrading a lot! Both can also do the little things you ask of them and add speed to the team. 3) Mota is awesome and would be a closer for many teams. Who cares about Perez. If he comes through he comes through. However, he is a lefty and lefties are tough to come by. Ask the Cubbies about that. I believe Estes is still around for that reason alone. I also think if you get Perez you will either not trade for Garcia or not sign Ponson. I think they want Ponson and Garcia and do not want Perez. I would be shocked if we received Perez without the idea of trading him shortly after. 4) I believe the Mariners are desperate for power in thier lineup. They tried to trade Guillen for Vizquel earlier today. I see no reason why the Mariners wouldnt trade Garcia here for Valentin. Mariners want to rid themselves of his contract. Valentin supplies them with power, helps them fill a need at SS and they will rid themselves or Garcia's contract. 5) Ponson is believed to have be asking for 3 for 18 million. That is only 6 million per. I believe we can afford that. If you think that defense/offense and starting staff cant win a depleted AL Central then I think you are sorely mistaken. I think you are also foregetting Scott Williamson coming here from Boston. Our bullpen would be really nice if this all works out correctly. 1. Magglio is both an above average defensive RF AND an above average baserunner, probably the best running clean up hitter in AL. He wasn't quite as good in 2003 in those areas as he was before, but let's not pretend we are talking about Ben f***ing Grieve here. Johnny Damon is an average defensive CF. The only edge comes from Garcippara being a better fielder than Valentin, but they were pretty damn equal in 2003, with Valentin outranking Nomar in peripherals most of his career.......Again, Nomar's slight advantage and the fact that Damon is a CF does = to "slightly better defense", but it's NOWHERE near as crucial as you make it sound. This is not Tonny Graffanino to A-Rod, Brian Daubach for Torii Hunter type of defensive upgrade, not even close. 2. Valentin has 2 choices: either settle for about 650 OPS from left side against LHP (thus pushing his cumulative OPS well over 800) and PLAY....OR insist on hitting from the right side and SIT.......Especially in Seattle where they know the value of "sitting unproductive players down". 3. Mota is gonna be 31 and he's had ONE in his career where he WASN'T terrible. Sorry, as good as he was in 2003, that spells "high risk". And then of course you adjust for Dodger stadium being pitcher friendly...Again, like his stuff, but let's not get carried away here. Odalis Perez? Have you SEEN his home-away splits and career numbers? This dude is gonna get 4.5+ in arbitration, not exactly cheap. 4. The way Garcia pitched in 2002-2003, I don't want him (esp. away from Safeco), his salary OR his cancer-esque attitude......And the way he pitched in 2001, why would they give him up for overpaid Valentin? 5. 3/18? He rejected 3/21 offer from Baltimore, his home city. With Bartolo signing for nearly 13 mill (over 4 years no less), I am not sure he signs for less than 7/7.5 mill per, which means that whatever sum you saved on Maggs's trade to LA goes to toward signing a #3 pitcher Ponson. 6. Nobody is gonna give you Garciappara even at 12+ Mill a year. Trade with Boston means NO saving money on Ponson and no Mota/Perez as well. This is what you have: 2B Harris (bad O, average D) RF Reed (average O, average D) DH Thomas (at 36) LF Lee (good O, average D) 1B Konerko (average O, average D) 3B Crede (average O, above average D) CF Rowand (average O, average D) SS Uribe (below average O, above average D) C Olivo (bad O, good D) Loaiza (3.50 ERA) Burhle (3.85) Ponson (3. 85) Garcia (4.25) Perez (4.35) Marte (2.50) Mota (3.00) Willimson (3.50) Wunsht (3.00) Koch (5.50) Wright/Garland (4.00) Knowing how Minnesota reloads every year (they already dumped their overpayed bums) and has our number psychologically..........and considering KC's improvement (remember they won 83 games last year despite having Hernandez, Sweeney, Beltran, Randa OUT for a longass time....now they're healthy, and they have Mondesi, Stairs, Santiago, Anderson, Sullivan, Lescanic and Graffanino who KILLS left handed pitching as a fine utilitiy guy to boot)........ DUDE, the above is a 75-win team despite a good bullpen unless you get miracles like Thomas having another 950 OPS season, Lee driving in 115 runs again, etc. in which case they win about 83-86, which means second place instead of third. Big deal, the team is still gonna be gutted at year's end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 It will probably take 3 years at $21-$24 million to sign Ponson. It will probably take 3 years at $21-$24 million to sign Ponson. I had him at 23-25 with some money deferred/in insentives. Close enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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