DonkeyKongerko Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 The White Sox are an interesting case in more ways than one. This trade, not to mention the one that gained them an established closer in Billy Koch, tells you that GM Ken Williams knows exactly what he's doing and has been given enough resources to do what he's doing. Two things I never thought I'd read in print except for in a sarcastic font color. this is from baseball perspectives by Mike Bauman. You can read the entire article here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 The White Sox are an interesting case in more ways than one. This trade, not to mention the one that gained them an established closer in Billy Koch, tells you that GM Ken Williams knows exactly what he's doing and has been given enough resources to do what he's doing. Two things I never thought I'd read in print except for in a sarcastic font color. this is from baseball perspectives by Mike Bauman. You can read the entire article here Mike Bauman must have got his job as a baseball beat writer yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 KW makes one good trade and all of a sudden he is the messiah....I got one thing to say to all the backers of KW who say he is a good GM....remember when he was the one on the end of the fleecing not more than a year ago, when he traded Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie? or when Billy Beane made KW his b**** trading Jon Adkins for Ray Durham? This is that same guy, folks. He's still a dips*** in my books....he'll have to make a few more good trades that fill the team's needs(the Koch trade was good...but we didn't need a closer) for me to change my mind. He's decent....because he isn't making stupid-ass moves anymore. But a person that runs out in front of a car and gets hit by it, and then doesn't run out in front of a car again, doesn't mean the guy is not a dips***. Hell, sometimes when he is walking along side the road, a pretty girl might get out of the car and kiss him...so he got damn lucky...it doesn't mean he's not a dips*** still. In other words...don't say KW is brilliant yet. He fleeced Montreal in this deal, but it doesn't mean he won't get fleeced by someone else in the near future...hopefully he doesn't though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPinStripes Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 This deal would never have happened if it werent for the Yankees making damn sure the Red Sox didnt get Colon. Thank you King george! Not taking anything away from kw though. I still tip my cap to him for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 KW makes one good trade and all of a sudden he is the messiah....I got one thing to say to all the backers of KW who say he is a good GM....remember when he was the one on the end of the fleecing not more than a year ago, when he traded Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie? or when Billy Beane made KW his b**** trading Jon Adkins for Ray Durham? This is that same guy, folks. He's still a dips*** in my books....he'll have to make a few more good trades that fill the team's needs(the Koch trade was good...but we didn't need a closer) for me to change my mind. He's decent....because he isn't making stupid-ass moves anymore. But a person that runs out in front of a car and gets hit by it, and then doesn't run out in front of a car again, doesn't mean the guy is not a dips***. Hell, sometimes when he is walking along side the road, a pretty girl might get out of the car and kiss him...so he got damn lucky...it doesn't mean he's not a dips*** still. In other words...don't say KW is brilliant yet. He fleeced Montreal in this deal, but it doesn't mean he won't get fleeced by someone else in the near future...hopefully he doesn't though. Yeah, so I guess Lofton for Diaz and Meaux blew chunks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 KW makes one good trade and all of a sudden he is the messiah....I got one thing to say to all the backers of KW who say he is a good GM....remember when he was the one on the end of the fleecing not more than a year ago, when he traded Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie? or when Billy Beane made KW his b**** trading Jon Adkins for Ray Durham? This is that same guy, folks. He's still a dips*** in my books....he'll have to make a few more good trades that fill the team's needs(the Koch trade was good...but we didn't need a closer) for me to change my mind. He's decent....because he isn't making stupid-ass moves anymore. But a person that runs out in front of a car and gets hit by it, and then doesn't run out in front of a car again, doesn't mean the guy is not a dips***. Hell, sometimes when he is walking along side the road, a pretty girl might get out of the car and kiss him...so he got damn lucky...it doesn't mean he's not a dips*** still. In other words...don't say KW is brilliant yet. He fleeced Montreal in this deal, but it doesn't mean he won't get fleeced by someone else in the near future...hopefully he doesn't though. Yeah, so I guess Lofton for Diaz and Meaux blew chunks. do we have to keep going down this road??...getting diaz was pretty good deal at the time for lofton..but you know what...had kw not made upteen screw ups in his career as the sox GM prior to finally get one right with lofton , he wouldnt have been dumping lofton in the first place because the sox would have been dominting minnesota and the division anf getting ready for the playoffs for the 3rd consecutive season... his screw ups cost us two years on top of the division..and who knows what would have happened in the playoffs...no amount of great trades from this point on can alter that fact..this guy is a failure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPinStripes Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 He is improving baggs. not that i think he's a fenius, but i will give him props for this , and we do have some real good arms left on teh farm that will be ready in a year or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Yeah, so I guess Lofton for Diaz and Meaux blew chunks. I never said that....but that trade is nowhere near the level of importance of the Colon or Durham or Ritchie trade....if something is as bad as the Durham trade is, it is important. KW got hosed terribly on that deal. Diaz wasn't the Giants top prospect and Meaux won't amount to much more than a reliever. In Colon, we got a great pitcher for one of our biggest needs. And we got screwed in the Ritchie deal as well. The Lofton for Diaz-Meaux deal was great...I was happy that we got anything at all. It doesn't make KW any more or any less of a dips*** though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 The White Sox are an interesting case in more ways than one. This trade, not to mention the one that gained them an established closer in Billy Koch, tells you that GM Ken Williams knows exactly what he's doing and has been given enough resources to do what he's doing. Two things I never thought I'd read in print except for in a sarcastic font color. this is from baseball perspectives by Mike Bauman. You can read the entire article here I love hearing it. When I see him in spring training (The past two years he's been there, so I figure he will be there this year) I'm gonna have a nice talk with him. Last year I told him the Ritchie deal stunk, this year I'm giving the man a compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 KW makes one good trade and all of a sudden he is the messiah....I got one thing to say to all the backers of KW who say he is a good GM....remember when he was the one on the end of the fleecing not more than a year ago, when he traded Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie? or when Billy Beane made KW his b**** trading Jon Adkins for Ray Durham? This is that same guy, folks. He's still a dips*** in my books....he'll have to make a few more good trades that fill the team's needs(the Koch trade was good...but we didn't need a closer) for me to change my mind. He's decent....because he isn't making stupid-ass moves anymore. But a person that runs out in front of a car and gets hit by it, and then doesn't run out in front of a car again, doesn't mean the guy is not a dips***. Hell, sometimes when he is walking along side the road, a pretty girl might get out of the car and kiss him...so he got damn lucky...it doesn't mean he's not a dips*** still. In other words...don't say KW is brilliant yet. He fleeced Montreal in this deal, but it doesn't mean he won't get fleeced by someone else in the near future...hopefully he doesn't though. Its also the same KW that acquired Damaso Marte, one of the best young left relievers in the majors as well as Edwin Yan. Its also the same KW that acquired D'Angelo Jimenez, our leadoff hitter/2nd/ss of the future that is a very very talented player that is going to do real good things for the Sox. Its also the same guy thats built a tremendous farm system and got us Willie Harris for Chris Singleton. He also got us Felix Diaz, one of the premier pitching prospects in the majors when healthy for KENNY Lofton. Ya..the Durham deal stunk and the Ritchie one stunk (Not as bad as everyone thinks it did though), but hey, I see more nice deals than terrible ones. Of course many also consider the JB deal that netted us Majewski and got rid of Baldwin bad as do most consider the Clayton deal bad. I consider those even deals, and I also consider the Boomer deal an even one. You can't rip that one or the JB one cause we didn't give anyone up that did anything special or really anything at all. The Clayton one I can see as a negative, because of the clubhouse problem, plus KW already admitted it a mistake. Then there is the Osuna deal which was a good deal. Oh ya then there was the awesome Colon deal!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 doesn't matter who was the driving force behind the trade, something we will never and only speculate on, but points must be given for seeing opportunity and taking advantage of it, at least. And KW may well be growing well into the job, just like a player who needs a year or two to get comfortable in the major league level position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Yeah, so I guess Lofton for Diaz and Meaux blew chunks. I never said that....but that trade is nowhere near the level of importance of the Colon or Durham or Ritchie trade....if something is as bad as the Durham trade is, it is important. KW got hosed terribly on that deal. Diaz wasn't the Giants top prospect and Meaux won't amount to much more than a reliever. In Colon, we got a great pitcher for one of our biggest needs. And we got screwed in the Ritchie deal as well. The Lofton for Diaz-Meaux deal was great...I was happy that we got anything at all. It doesn't make KW any more or any less of a dips*** though. One thing though, if we never made the Durham deal we'd be in bad shape going into this year. We wouldn't know who to play between Harris and Jimenez. I know they still aren't too proven, but at least tehy both had ample playing time when we weren't in the thick of things. Sometimes you got to make a deal just to open up room for everything else and if people really think there was a better deal out there, then I think were mistaken. I know we were all talking about Lidle and others, but the facts were no one had interest in his salary. How he got Diaz was amazing. Just throwing it out there. No Adkins isn't an ace, but everyone forgets it gave the youngsters time to play. We knew Ray wasn't going to be here and ya his compensation would be a nice thing to have, but now we learned Harris wasn't quite ready and he learned what he needs to work on and we also found out Jimenez is pretty damn good, or so I think he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Diaz wasn't the Giants top prospect When you're behind Kurt Ainsworth, Boof Bonser, and Jerome Williams, you won't. But, he did rank, I believe, as one of top 50 RHP in all of minor league baseball. That, and his stuff is just plain filthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 doesn't matter who was the driving force behind the trade, something we will never and only speculate on, but points must be given for seeing opportunity and taking advantage of it, at least. And KW may well be growing well into the job, just like a player who needs a year or two to get comfortable in the major league level position. From the various press reports and quotes I've read, it's pretty obvious who the driving force behind the deal was: 1. Williams hounded Minaya for weeks about Colon. 2. Cashman offer the El Duque deal, which Williams nixed. 3. Williams hounded Minaya some more. Found out the El Duque would seal the deal. 4. Willams called Cashman and accepted the previously offered proposal. 5. Then he completed the deal with the Expos. Whether he used the fact that the Yankees didn't want Colon in Boston, or not, Williams made this deal happen. And if he did use that fact, then so much the better. He saw an opportunity to use this to his advantage and used it. This is one deal where KW shines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 KW makes one good trade and all of a sudden he is the messiah....I got one thing to say to all the backers of KW who say he is a good GM....remember when he was the one on the end of the fleecing not more than a year ago, when he traded Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie? or when Billy Beane made KW his b**** trading Jon Adkins for Ray Durham? This is that same guy, folks. He's still a dips*** in my books....he'll have to make a few more good trades that fill the team's needs(the Koch trade was good...but we didn't need a closer) for me to change my mind. He's decent....because he isn't making stupid-ass moves anymore. But a person that runs out in front of a car and gets hit by it, and then doesn't run out in front of a car again, doesn't mean the guy is not a dips***. Hell, sometimes when he is walking along side the road, a pretty girl might get out of the car and kiss him...so he got damn lucky...it doesn't mean he's not a dips*** still. In other words...don't say KW is brilliant yet. He fleeced Montreal in this deal, but it doesn't mean he won't get fleeced by someone else in the near future...hopefully he doesn't though. Its also the same KW that acquired Damaso Marte, one of the best young left relievers in the majors as well as Edwin Yan. Its also the same KW that acquired D'Angelo Jimenez, our leadoff hitter/2nd/ss of the future that is a very very talented player that is going to do real good things for the Sox. Its also the same guy thats built a tremendous farm system and got us Willie Harris for Chris Singleton. He also got us Felix Diaz, one of the premier pitching prospects in the majors when healthy for KENNY Lofton. Ya..the Durham deal stunk and the Ritchie one stunk (Not as bad as everyone thinks it did though), but hey, I see more nice deals than terrible ones. Of course many also consider the JB deal that netted us Majewski and got rid of Baldwin bad as do most consider the Clayton deal bad. I consider those even deals, and I also consider the Boomer deal an even one. You can't rip that one or the JB one cause we didn't give anyone up that did anything special or really anything at all. The Clayton one I can see as a negative, because of the clubhouse problem, plus KW already admitted it a mistake. Then there is the Osuna deal which was a good deal. Oh ya then there was the awesome Colon deal!!!!!!!!!!! what is your defination of premier, surely you are not saying saying diaz is that. he may be good, but he is not a premier. i know of many who are premier and he is not one of them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurcieOne Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 doesn't matter who was the driving force behind the trade, something we will never and only speculate on, but points must be given for seeing opportunity and taking advantage of it, at least. And KW may well be growing well into the job, just like a player who needs a year or two to get comfortable in the major league level position. From the various press reports and quotes I've read, it's pretty obvious who the driving force behind the deal was: 1. Williams hounded Minaya for weeks about Colon. 2. Cashman offer the El Duque deal, which Williams nixed. 3. Williams hounded Minaya some more. Found out the El Duque would seal the deal. 4. Willams called Cashman and accepted the previously offered proposal. 5. Then he completed the deal with the Expos. Whether he used the fact that the Yankees didn't want Colon in Boston, or not, Williams made this deal happen. And if he did use that fact, then so much the better. He saw an opportunity to use this to his advantage and used it. This is one deal where KW shines. Your 100% right I couldn't agree anymore with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I consider Diaz a premier prospect, STUFF wise. The guy has filthy stuff, but he does have health questionmarks. Thats what holds him back from being thought of as one of the top prospects, although he is still rated very high. Trust me though, this kid will be fun to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurcieOne Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I consider Diaz a premier prospect, STUFF wise. The guy has filthy stuff, but he does have health questionmarks. Thats what holds him back from being thought of as one of the top prospects, although he is still rated very high. Trust me though, this kid will be fun to watch. Diaz is my favorite pitcher in the whitesox system.........J I think we've been over this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I consider Diaz a premier prospect, STUFF wise. The guy has filthy stuff, but he does have health questionmarks. Thats what holds him back from being thought of as one of the top prospects, although he is still rated very high. Trust me though, this kid will be fun to watch. Diaz is my favorite pitcher in the whitesox system.........J I think we've been over this before. when i think of premier, i do not associate it with diaz, even tho he is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Diaz wasn't the Giants top prospect When you're behind Kurt Ainsworth, Boof Bonser, and Jerome Williams, you won't. But, he did rank, I believe, as one of top 50 RHP in all of minor league baseball. That, and his stuff is just plain filthy. Ha ha ha..... Boof..... ha ha ha..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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