KW sucks as a GM

[Ozzietheairedale]

I have absolutely no confidence that KW can outsmart Epstein or Evans. My only hope is that the deal either doesn't go down as reported or KW is smarter than I think.

 

Is it possible that all this talk of keeping Nomar is an attempt to get either LA or Seattle to increase the price they are willing to pay for him?

 

I still can't believe we are talking about giving up Maggs, a fan favorite for years here, for a guy EVERYBODY says wants to go to the West coast and is basically average outside of Boston. I see this guy sulking by mid April and being another crybaby in the clubhouse. We will probably be in this division race until the end and won't trade him at the deadline, so he leaves at the end of the year for draft choices. :fthecubs

[witesoxfan]

WHO THE HELL CARES IF THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS?

 

Nomar could also be driven by money and wants to have his best season ever, does, propels us to a playoff birth where Buehrle, Loaiza, Livan Hernandez, and Tony Armas Jr(who we acquire for prospects from Montreal) all get hot, and watch Jon Garland come through from the pen and become one of the best setup men in the game as we once again see him struggle as a starter, get into the playoffs where Nomahhhhhhh and Frank light up the Red Sox in the first round, sweep them, then slaughter the Yanks in 5(where the Yanks got a lucky win in the first game like they did against the Angels in 01), and then play LA in the World Series where we go down 3 games to 0, win the next 3 in blowout fashion, send Buehrle out as the game 7 starter, have him throw a shutout through 8 and be tied 0-0 after 9, go into the top of the 14th, watch Jon Garland(who has since been nicknamed Mrs. October from all the Judy Garland signs seen earlier in the year after he sucked as a starter once again) give up a home run to former White Sox player Paul Konerko, go into the bottom of the 14th, see Willie Harris lead off with a hit and then all laugh and cry after Nomahhhhhhhhh hits a walk-off homer way out of here off of the unhittable Eric Gagne, and then signs a 5-year, $45 mill deal with us and is here for the rest of his career.

 

Odds are very, very, very good that that will not happen next year. But NO ONE KNOWS.

 

Settle the hell down. To win in baseball, you have to take risks. That is exactly what KW is doing.

[Ozzietheairedale]

Are you high?

 

All of the above stuff you just wrote could just as easily have occurred with Maggs and I think its way more likely he signs with the WSox at years end. Even if we win the WS (yeah, right) Nomar goes to the West Coast.

[HighHeat45]

Maybe Magglio will come back to the sox after the season if the bosox dont sign him

[witesoxfan]

Are you high?

 

All of the above stuff you just wrote could just as easily have occurred with Maggs and I think its way more likely he signs with the WSox at years end.  Even if we win the WS (yeah, right) Nomar goes to the West Coast.

Of course, what I did not mention is that Williamson was the best reliever who is not a closer in all of baseball.

 

Sure, Maggs could do the same thing. But if Nomar had his best season ever, it would probably involve numbers similar to .350 35 130....and that wouldn't even be his best average ever either. If he had his best average ever, he would hit something like .375 or so....if he had a .375 25 125 season, I would prefer that over anything that Maggs would do with us, because odds are, his numbers plus the new RFers will be better added together compared to Maggs's added with Jose's numbers. Add to that that we are getting Williamson, and we are getting the better deal.

 

If Maggs had another .320 40 135 year, I wouldn't mind him....but he won't have another year like that with us. He'd probably hit something like .310 30 115, and that is not worth $14 mill. Meanwhile, Nomar will probably hit .310 25 110 while playing a much harder position, AND we get Williamson.

 

IMO, Williamson is actually the key to the deal. Also....Maggs for Nomar and Williamson is not the only move you have to consider. You also have to consider a Valentin for Guillen trade, and possibly a Konerko for Perez trade. We get so much from this deal. Without it, we are very much screwed.

[Guest Hex Rudler]

I wish Boston still had super prospect Freddie Sanchez to dangle in front of us, but he went to Pittsburgh.

[Ozzietheairedale]

WiteSox

 

Your numbers are all skewed one way - all in favor of a great year by Nomar. The fact is Nomar's numbers outside of Fenway are average at best - he's not going to hit even .300 at Cellular. You can't go by his pre-injury numbers either.

 

I get the Williamson angle, I just don't think it offsets Nomar's downside.

 

As for Valentin-Guillen and Konerko-Perez, by all means do them if these other GMs are stupid enough to make those trades.

[witesoxfan]

WiteSox

 

Your numbers are all skewed one way - all in favor of a great year by Nomar.  The fact is Nomar's numbers outside of Fenway are average at best - he's not going to hit even .300 at Cellular. You can't go by his pre-injury numbers either.

 

I get the Williamson angle, I just don't think it offsets Nomar's downside.

 

As for Valentin-Guillen and Konerko-Perez, by all means do them if these other GMs are stupid enough to make those trades.

You are right. I was just so excited about the potential trade and the Sox actually heading in the right direction that I put some rose-colored glasses on.

 

I'm not sure what the hell happened to Nomar's numbers this past year on the road. Whatever he did wrong on the road really killed his overall numbers, hitting only .243 on the road. However, in 2002, he hit about .295 on the road, so it's not as if he has sucked on the road since his wrist got messed up.

 

Regardless, he wouldn't be a bad pickup. If it were Maggs alone for Garciaparra and Williamson, I'd want the deal done immediately, and then hope that the Valentin and Konerko deals get done. Then maybe we sign Burnitz to play RF, he pans out and plays pretty damn good(maybe puts up .270 30 110 type numbers, though he'd strike out 125-150 times) for $2-3 mill, and we have better numbers between Burnitz and Garciaparra then we would with Valentin and Ordonez at a much cheaper price(approx. $15.5 mill tops in the Nomar-Burnitz combo, about $19 mill with Ordonez-Valentin combo)....I just think it would be the better move in the long run. And like I said, even if we were to lose either of them, at the very least, we would get something for Nomar....if we offered arbitration to Maggs and he accepted, we could very well be paying him $15 mill in 05. Do you know how crazy that is? At the very least, if we offer Nomar arbitration, either he accepts it and we have him at $12 or $13 mill, or he signs elsewhere and we get a couple draft picks. That would happen or we'd trade him for some killer prospects.

 

Then again, the possibility of signing either long term comes up, and we have a much better shot of signing Maggs long term then we do Nomar. But anything can happen over the couse of the season, and maybe he would like playing for Ozzie and playing in a more fan-friendly environment would be good for him and he'd start putting up his pre-2001 numbers again.

 

Anything can and will happen in all aspects of this game, which is what makes this sport like no other sport on the face of the planet.

[southsideirish]

I have absolutely no confidence that KW can outsmart Epstein or Evans. My only hope is that the deal either doesn't go down as reported or KW is smarter than I think.

 

Is it possible that all this talk of keeping Nomar is an attempt to get either LA or Seattle to increase the price they are willing to pay for him?

 

I still can't believe we are talking about giving up Maggs, a fan favorite for years here, for a guy EVERYBODY says wants to go to the West coast and is basically average outside of Boston. I see this guy sulking by mid April and being another crybaby in the clubhouse. We will probably be in this division race until the end and won't trade him at the deadline, so he leaves at the end of the year for draft choices.

 

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. The Sox don't only need a hitter in return for Magglio, but it would be nice to get a poster boy type of player. Who do you think of when you think of the Red Sox? NOMAR!!! The White Sox don't haev that type of player. With Nomar they would. Magglio is great. However, when was the last time you have heard him speak? Why is he such a fan favorite? He doesn't say anything!! Is it becuase of the chant? O-E-OOOO-MAGLIOOOO! Big f***ing deal!!!! Nomar is a draw. He brings in fans. HE may cost you 12-14 million a year, but he will also bring more fans and revenue in. Magglio doesn't bring the fans. He just doesn't. What is everyone so upset about? I don't have any idea why this guy is such a fan favorite and he is not worth 14 million a year. He just isn't!

 

I really doubt KW is trying to drive up the price. You are losing Magglio, the middle of your lineup. If you then trade away Nomar for pitching and prospects, then you are creating a huge hole in the middle of the lineup. No one will replace that. The White Sox, who are trying to get more fans, will lose even more fans if they ever put a team like that out.

 

This thread sucks my f***ing ass!

[Ozzietheairedale]

Sooooo, let me get this straight SouthSide

 

You think that Nomar, whose numbers over the last 2 years outside of Fenway are nowhere near as good as Magglio's, will bring fans to the ballpark?

 

The ONLY thing that brings fans to 35th Street is winning. I don't care who you have out there, Albert Belle, David Wells, Frank Thomas, Roberto Alomar, Bartolo Colon etc, if the Sox don't win, they won't come.

 

Now maybe your crystal ball is better than mine, but if you look at the numbers honestly, there is NO WAY that Magglio equals Nomar offensively. Obviously, Nomar plays a more difficult position and is a great fielder, but people don't come to see defense. Sox fans only come to see winning, and I'm sorry but Nomar doesn't make us more likely to win. And then, he is definitely gone at the end of the season, for nothing.

[greg775]

I'd rather have Maggs than Nomar.

Just another bad KW trade is coming.

[103 mph screwball]

As for Valentin-Guillen and Konerko-Perez, by all means do them if these other GMs are stupid enough to make those trades.

They traded Guillen for Viquel. I think Valentin has more value than Visquel at this point in his career. I doubt the Konerko thing will happen. I'd imagine Evans is pissed.

[YASNY]

They traded Guillen for Viquel.  I think Valentin has more value than Visquel at this point in his career. I doubt the Konerko thing will happen.  I'd imagine Evans is pissed.

All the more reason why Evans might do the Perez for Konerko deal. His top 2 prospects for filling that RH hitter he needs are about to be traded for each other. I think KW is trying to extract a little revenge for the Berry/Barry fiasco.

[YASNY]

I also think Nomar hitting .243 on the road is due to one thing. The Mia Hamm factor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean .... wouldn't you be distracted?

[southsideirish]

You think that Nomar, whose numbers over the last 2 years outside of Fenway are nowhere near as good as Magglio's, will bring fans to the ballpark?

 

The ONLY thing that brings fans to 35th Street is winning. I don't care who you have out there, Albert Belle, David Wells, Frank Thomas, Roberto Alomar, Bartolo Colon etc, if the Sox don't win, they won't come.

 

Now maybe your crystal ball is better than mine, but if you look at the numbers honestly, there is NO WAY that Magglio equals Nomar offensively. Obviously, Nomar plays a more difficult position and is a great fielder, but people don't come to see defense. Sox fans only come to see winning, and I'm sorry but Nomar doesn't make us more likely to win. And then, he is definitely gone at the end of the season, for nothing.

 

Defense leads to winning. Enough said. Magglio does not field his position well. I am sure we can all see that. He is below average out there. He is a lolly gagger. There is also something called charisma, which Nomar brings. He is a marketable player. Magglio is not. Remember that Pepsi commercial? AWFUL! I am not saying that alon brings people to the park. However, a huge name like Nomar does. Magglio is not half the name Nomar is. Nomar's offensive #s are still awesome. He is the 2nd best SS in the game today. I dont believe Maggio can say that about his position either offensively or defensively.

[YASNY]

Defense leads to winning. Enough said. Magglio does not field his position well. I am sure we can all see that. He is below average out there. He is a lolly gagger. There is also something called charisma, which Nomar brings. He is a marketable player. Magglio is not. Remember that Pepsi commercial? AWFUL! I am not saying that alon brings people to the park. However, a huge name like Nomar does. Magglio is not half the name Nomar is. Nomar's offensive #s are still awesome. He is the 2nd best SS in the game today. I dont believe Maggio can say that about his position either offensively or defensively.

In fact, Magglio was the 2nd highest rated RF'er in the AL in terms of range factor. He had one play in a crucial game that in my mind he appeared to misjudge a line drive, and many assumed he was dogging it. Maggs has always been an above average RF'er.

[Texsox]

Two ways to look at Nomar's away from Fenway numbers.

1. He's a better home player than on the road. His Cell numbers will be strong.

2. He is the rare individual that can only play at one park. I doubt it.

 

Baseball is won up the middle. All things being equal, I would rather have my top player at SS, 2nd, of CF than off in a corner. Nomar will be around the ball way more than Maggs.

 

This trade may never happen so this is probably a stupid excercise.

[GreenSox]

If Maggs had another .320 40 135 year, I wouldn't mind him....but he won't have another year like that with us.  He'd probably hit something like .310 30 115, and that is not worth $14 mill.  Meanwhile, Nomar will probably hit .310 25 110 while playing a much harder position, AND we get Williamson.

 

IMO, Williamson is actually the key to the deal.  Also....Maggs for Nomar and Williamson is not the only move you have to consider.  You also have to consider a Valentin for Guillen trade, and possibly a Konerko for Perez trade.  We get so much from this deal.  Without it, we are very much screwed.

That nomar plays a "harder position" is not the way to analyze this. Do we have someone with good numbers to take Maggs position at the easier position????

You add Maggs production and Valentin's production (presuming we trade him) and compare it to Nomar's production plus the production of whoever plays right field. I'd be shocked if we come out ahead.

Williamson is a middle reliever - the value is inherently limited no matter how good the stats guys see him. Throw a quality starter in there and it might make sense.

And it doesn't solve the long term issue - he's leaving after next year. We plug one hole (and SS was actually the strongest of our holes), create a new one, and still need a CF, middle infielder, and, most of all, a lead off hitter.

The only reason to do this deal is to move him.

[Wong & Owens]

I think you're all missing the point. Mags isn't resigning with us after the year, not necessarily by his choice, but JR isn't committing anything resembling $14 million a year for him. Nomar wouldn't be resigned either, so you have to look at the potential deal from these angles:

 

1) We also get Williamson, who will be signed for a few years

 

2) We're getting Perez, Mota, Miller et al..all guys that we can sign and keep for 2-3 seasons.

 

There's no point in arguing Nomar vs. Maggs--they're both one season and out, so who cares who's better?

[GreenSox]

I think you're all missing the point.  Mags isn't resigning with us after the year, not necessarily by his choice, but JR isn't committing anything resembling $14 million a year for him.  Nomar wouldn't be resigned either, so you have to look at the potential deal from these angles:

 

1)  We also get Williamson, who will be signed for a few years

 

2)  We're getting Perez, Mota, Miller et al..all guys that we can sign and keep for 2-3 seasons.

 

There's no point in arguing Nomar vs. Maggs--they're both one season and out, so who cares who's better?

Well, one season is one season, so i do care who's better. But I agree with you - we need to move whichever one we are left with.

Our position should be whichever the dodgers want - if they want Maggs, scew Boston; if they want Nomar, then we'll deal with Boston. Just the feeling I get is that we've, for some reason, agreed to participate with Boston, without having the other end of this locked up.

And Williamson's price is, what $3 mill? Couldn't we have signed Gordon or the guy we got from the Reds for that price?

[Ozzietheairedale]

Defense leads to winning. Enough said. Magglio does not field his position well. I am sure we can all see that. He is below average out there. He is a lolly gagger. There is also something called charisma, which Nomar brings. He is a marketable player. Magglio is not. Remember that Pepsi commercial? AWFUL! I am not saying that alon brings people to the park. However, a huge name like Nomar does. Magglio is not half the name Nomar is.

I am so glad this deal appears to be dead. I can't believe there are actually people out there who want Nomar because they think he'll do a better Pepsi commercial!

 

Peter Gammons this morning said on MVP that Magglio is the most underrated player in baseball. And another thing, why is it that the BoSox get Maggs for Nomar and a reliever and we get Perez and Mota for him? That doesn't add up.

 

Southside - why didn't "huge" names like Albert Belle, David Wells, Roberto Alomar and Bartolo Colon bring people to the ball park?