winninguglyin83 Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 CHICAGO (AP) -- Outfielder Carlos Lee agreed Friday to a $15 million, two-year contract with the Chicago White Sox, who also agreed to an $800,000, one-year deal with pitcher Kelly Wunsch. Lee gets $6.5 million next season and $8 million in 2005. Chicago has an $8.5 million option for 2006 with a $500,000 buyout. Lee, 27, hit .291 last season with 31 homers, 113 RBIs and 18 steals, all career highs. He led the team in RBIs and steals. sorry if this duplicates anything because I know the rumor was posted earlier in the day. finally, some good news.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxin' Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 It was reported earlier, but the figures weren't confirmed. And it is good to see some moves finally being made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 PornoGraphic I have no use for your vulgar word-play. (me! Tongue-in-cheekly to Weltrain after I made the “Heather’s redbird” remark...lolol)…….. I liked Carlos a WHOLALOT more when he was making 2.7 Mill in 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Sox keep wrong player again and again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Finally! Yessssssssssssssss! I don't care what any of you say, Lee is the MAN. I'll break down his offensive production vs wins for the team & I guarantee you he has been the best clutch hitter on team over the past 3 yrs. He's a rare combination of power & speed & has Canseco like potential. From a PR standpoint, once again Lee signs a reasonable contract 15/2 with an option at a time when the SOX can really use GOOD news. It goes w/out saying he's my favorite player because he works his arse off & ALWAYS beats the SCRUBS. He's coming off a year where he had the most ab's (623), most r (100), & most rbi's (113) on the SOX. It's arbit value was clearly more than 6mil. Yet for some reason (LOVE FOR THE WHITESOX maybe?) he accepted a deal that pays 6.5mil in 2004, 8 mil in 2005, & a .5 buyout or another 8.5mil in 2006. Let's look at what Lee really means to the SOX: 03: 623 ab's (1st), 100 r (1st), 113 rbi (1st), 311 tb (2nd), 18 sb (1st) 02: 492 ab's (4th), 82 r (2nd), 80 rbi (4th), 238 tb (4th), 1 sb (11th) 01: 558 ab's (4th), 75 r (4th), 84 rbi (3rd), 261 tb (4th), 17 sb (3rd) 00: 572 ab's (4th), 107 r (4th), 92 rbi (4th), 277 tb (4th), 13 sb (5th) Is it just possible he was playing hurt in 02 & that's why both his SB's & OF play suffered? I think the SB #'s are indicative of that. His performance in 2003 was the best on the team & a lot of that has to do with the extra 50 ab's. How much of an improvement has he made? In 2000 his ab/tb avg was 2.08. In 2003, he lowered that to 2. In 2000 his ab/rbi avg was 6.22. In 2003, he lowered that to 5.51. My Lee forecast: 04: 620 ab's, 100 r, 121 rbi, 330 tb, 20 sb, 30 hr Definitely worth 6.5MIL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Sox keep wrong player again and again Yeah, they are itching to get rid of fan favorite Maggs and keep dumbass, nobody gives a f*** about him but Heather, cant catch a fly ball hit right to him Caballo. Way to prioritize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokona Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hmm.. Remember what Paulie did before he got his contract? I hope this doesn't backfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 It's arbit value was clearly more than 6mil Jauggs, you make it sound like his "instristic value" is 9-10 Mill per and Sox were lucky to grab him at 7.5 Mill. (((Never mind the fact that to the Yankees he may indeed be worth 8-9 mill whereas anything over 6 Mill is stretching for the moneyless Sox, especially in light of the nice little fact that we still have some 36 Mill worth of Ordonez, Konerko, Kock, Valentin, Ownedwiess on the roster.))) He is an 814 career OPS LF'er with average defense, for pete's sake! Other than faring better in the clutch in 2003 than usual (aberration?), he didn't show anything he hadn't shown before. He is still ALL potential and I am for one am TIRED of waiting......Again, at 3-4 Mill, it's one thing. At 7.5? He better have another career year in 2004. Mr. Pull better not ground into 20 DPs again either. And baserunning? Do you honestly think Lee with utterly average speed, excessive weight and (prior to 2003) bad instincts is = anything close to 18 steals in 21 attempts again in 2004? If so I have a floating casino to sell you in Kiev. Mark Liptak's Biggest Fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I always show both sides of the story. Lee clearly needs to improve vs LHs. vs LH: 218 av, 274 obp, 358 slg, 165 ab vs RH: 317 av, 388 obp, 518 slg, 458 ab Situational OBP, SLG: 2003 NON: 325, 458 RON: 339, 554 RSP: 378, 654 **** best on the team (runners in scoring pos) R2O: 390, 704 **** best on the team (runners in scoring pos, 2 outs) C&L: 239, 360 - close & late. He had the most ab's & failed to produce. Still he produced 32 TB with those numbers & that ranks 4th on the team. Situational OBP, SLG: 2002 NON: 349, 466 RON: 373, 507 RSP: 367, 525 R2O: 383, 642 C&L: 388, 429 Situational OBP, SLG: 2001 NON: 289, 402 RON: 358, 548 RSP: 355, 527 R2O: 316, 500 01 C&L: 341, 607 Situational OBP, SLG: 2000 NON: 366,533 RON: 321, 429 RSP: 320, 444 R2O: 275, 333 00 C&L: 355, 485 Look at his improvement in RSP & R2O over the years! Proof positive that Lee might be the best GRINDER & CLUTCH player on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Proof positive that Lee might be the best GRINDER & CLUTCH player on the team. Let's hope you're right. He is now getting the 3-4 spot hitter money, so he BETTER live up to it. I'll take 875 OPS, 120 RBI and 15 steals and less than 15 GIDPs. I always show both sides of the story. Lee clearly needs to improve vs LHs. How does RH with as much talent as Lee have a 630 OPS versus LHP? That's simply ridiculous, and is the only barrier separating him from stardom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Jauggs, you make it sound like his "instristic value" is 9-10 Mill per and Sox were lucky to grab him at 7.5 Mill. (((Never mind the fact that to the Yankees he may indeed be worth 8-9 mill whereas anything over 6 Mill is stretching for the moneyless Sox, especially in light of the nice little fact that we still have some 36 Mill worth of Ordonez, Konerko, Kock, Valentin, Ownedwiess on the roster.))) He is an 814 career OPS LF'er with average defense, for pete's sake! Other than faring better in the clutch in 2003 than usual (aberration?), he didn't show anything he hadn't shown before. He is still ALL potential and I am for one am TIRED of waiting......Again, at 3-4 Mill, it's one thing. At 7.5? He better have another career year in 2004. Mr. Pull better not ground into 20 DPs again either. And baserunning? Do you honestly think Lee with utterly average speed, excessive weight and (prior to 2003) bad instincts is = anything close to 18 steals in 21 attempts again in 2004? If so I have a floating casino to sell you in Kiev. Mark Liptak's Biggest Fan QUOTE: Do you honestly think Lee with utterly average speed, excessive weight and (prior to 2003) bad instincts is = anything close to 18 steals in 21 attempts again in 2004? He does not have average speed. If you watch the games, you know that at a decent weight (like in 2003) he has deceptive speed. With longer legs he has a greater potential for SB's than Maggs. So as long as his weight remains decent I do believe he has 20SB potential next year. QUOTE: He is an 814 career OPS LF'er with average defense, I am so sick of the career stats! These are young players that are expected to show improvement over the years. So what's important is not the number but the progression of the number. As for the average defense I disagree. It's clear that the one year was an aberration & last year most of us who watched & attended the games believed he was the most improved defender. He made some spectacular catches. He has a rare combination of size & speed to do so. A 978 fldg pct in 323 TC is above average. And btw, this is the SOX remember. We take things 1 yr at time. So I consider Lee at 6.5MIL for 2004 reasonable. Again what do you think he's arbitration value would have been considering he was the best offensive player on the team in 2003? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I like Carlos as much as the next guy but I think the Sox overpaid here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Again what do you think he's arbitration value would have been considering he was the best offensive player on the team in 2003? That's saying a whole lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MnSoxFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I think CLee is worth it, he and Maggs are clearly our two best players, Maggs is making too much. I was so hoping Maggs and prospect for Nomar and Williamson and Kim, then move Nomar to LA for Jackson, Mota and Izturis or to Angels for Washburn, Donnelly, Epstein and a prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 So I consider Lee at 6.5MIL for 2004 reasonable. Again what do you think he's arbitration value would have been considering he was the best offensive player on the team in 2003? 6.5 Mill was the consensus. Why do you ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I think CLee is worth it, he and Maggs are clearly our two best players, Maggs is making too much. I was so hoping Maggs and prospect for Nomar and Williamson and Kim, then move Nomar to LA for Jackson, Mota and Izturis or to Angels for Washburn, Donnelly, Epstein and a prospect. I tend to agree. Of course same time LAST year Magglio could have netted us much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 So as long as his weight remains decent I do believe he has 20SB potential next year. Yeah, 20 SB in 33 attempts maybe. I am so sick of the career stats! Ok, I'll play along.....Lee's career OPS is 870 and he's primed to go over 900 in 2004. Because he is only 24, he might actually challenge 950. As for the average defense I disagree. It's clear that the one year was an aberration & last year most of us who watched & attended the games believed he was the most improved defender. Yeah, he went from terrible (1999-2000) to bad (2001-2002) to average (2003). He might win the Gold Glove in 2006. If only Wynn, Jones, Anderson, Crawford, Matsui and Stewart didn't stand in the way. And btw, this is the SOX remember. We take things 1 yr at time. Absolutely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hmm.. Remember what Paulie did before he got his contract? I hope this doesn't backfire Yeah, he had an incredibly good first half of 2002 and then tanked in the second half. Carlos did not tank....so we don't know what will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Was his performance vs LH's an aberration in 2003 or is it systemic? 03: 165 ab, 59 tb, 20 r, 20 rbi, 274 obp, 358 slg 02: 112 ab, 50 tb, 14 r, 13 rbi, 400 obp, 446 slg 01: 115 ab, 40 tb, 16 r, 12 rbi, 302 obp, 348 slg 00: 098 ab, 50 tb, 28 r, 18 rbi, 371 obp, 510 slg His 2000 numbers are pretty good, but my guess is there are certain LH's that own him. I forgot a VERY big stat for Lee: 01-03 vs MIN 345 obp, 576 slg. Best on the team. Some other ALC worthy stats: vs MIN Santana : 14 ab, 400 obp, 714 slg vs MIN Lohse : 29 ab, 438 obp, 828 slg vs MIN Radke : 47 ab, 333 obp, 511 slg vs CLE Sabathia : 22 ab, 460 obp, 545 slg Ok, it's obviously not all LH's so it must be certain ones. vs DET Maroth: 16 ab, 619 ops vs KC Anderson: 18 ab, 261 ops vs KC May: 12 ab, 583 ops vs KC Affelt: 9 ab, 384 ops It's not all LH's but a pattern emerged in 2003: Teams with strong LH pitching weakened Lee. vs ANA: 30 ab, 656 ops vs LAD: 13 ab, 539 ops vs NYY: 25 ab, 616 ops vs OAK: 36 ab, 549 ops vs SFO: 10 ab, 533 ops His 3 yr splits: vs LH 0392 ab, 50 r, 45 rbi, 700 ops vs RH 1281 ab, 207 r, 232 rbi, 858 ops Well, let's be honest. If he ever learns to hit LH's as well as he hit's RH's his price will be well beyond the means of this team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I forgot a VERY big stat for Lee: 01-03 vs MIN 345 obp, 576 slg. Best on the team. I like the way you think, each game against your divisional rival counts as two. The problem is, KC, not Minnesota, is likely to be our biggest rival. Well, let's be honest. If he ever learns to hit LH's as well as he hit's RH's his price will be well beyond the means of this team Yes, probably so. And, he should be hitting LHP BETTER than RHP, not as well. His 900+ OPS versus RHP was, off the top of my head, probably THE best of any AL righty. If he could muster 950 (hell Aaron f***ing Rowand has something like 850) against LHP, he'll be worth every penny of his 6.5 Mill in 2004. Jauggs, what's your take on Ordonez/LA situation? There is a 3-page thread somewhere near the top discussing this very thing. Join it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I like Carlos as much as the next guy but I think the Sox overpaid here. Well, if he would have went to arbitration these next two years he would have gotten more than 15 mil (given his level of play remains at the same level). The Sox's most likely saved money, its either pay him 15M/2 Years or cut him (i guess you can trade him, but you won't get fair value). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I like Carlos as much as the next guy Spiff, something we can agree on here... This is, by all means, great news for the Sox. Carlos is so hustle, and he improves every day. He's becoming a lethal hitter, and has some speed on the basepaths. Plus, he's the ultimate Cub killa, so he's special. Hopefully he'll be used in the 2-hole more this season, as it's obvious that he's most productive hitting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I have to say i like this. I was never a big carlos fan until last year. He decided to get his head on straight and he proved what he could do on both offense and defense. We may have slightly overpaid, but hey.......i have a feeling he'll be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hex Rudler Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 The Sox have been very fair with Carlos since they brought him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 The Sox have been very fair with Carlos since they brought him up. Which is why I feel he is going to have a long career with the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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